I would like to see a discussion on rappers. I have my opinions, but Brian's opinion and Ace's debate intrigue me. I don't want this to turn and start talking about "The Smiths", strickly rap, including everyone from Wu-tang to Pettaway and Dat Bull. Let's do it.
This Week's Obsession: HOLYA ASDILJ AIO:U)UIOASDIOUAS!!!
This week George CaFLAPPAJMAAA WOOOO PEROBEEE FLABBBADABBA ROOSKIE ROUNDTABLE CROOTIN LINEUP:
- BRIALNAWLFJKLASDFJ KL;ASDJFKL;JA
- ACOERFJALKFUASD0[F IADSKFJKLASDFJ
- SETHLKFADJF KLASDJFKLASDJFKLJA
- BLUE IN SUASDFKL; UASDKLFUio'fuasdklfua
- HEIOFUD FJKLASDFJKLASDFJKLASDFJKLASDF
And the questioEEEEEEEBAAAAAAHAHAHAVAHAHAHAHAHA:
With the commitment of George Campbell HOLY GOLDEN KSDJFKLAJSDKLF AJKLDFJ?/FJAKLSDJF QUAMARAN A HIJUCKAJLUA SHEE SHEE FUM DAMIEN HARRIS KICKLUK RAINBOWS PEPPERS FARGARARPRID EVER OR FUPOAUERLKJASDF;KL AOF;JADFU EXAMPLES NOT MORRIS?
Brian: Well... yeah. While it's crazy that I can put together most of a projected class for 2015 already--
RB: Damien Harris, Mikey Weber.
WR: George Campbell, Brian Cole.
TE: Ty Wheatley Jr.
OL: John Runyan Jr., Sterling Jenkins
DL: Brady Pallante, ?!?
LB: Justin Hilliard, Tyriq Thompson
DB: Tyree Kinnel, Shawn Crawford
K: Andrew David
That's 15, and while I bet Michigan gets up to 18 or so, half of the class is either committed or lockalicious (Kinnel, Wheatley, Weber, Crawford, probably Jenkins) 18 months from Signing Day
--but Michigan isn't even that far ahead of the game in the 2015 class. Texas (surprise!) already has 8 commits; Michigan is only fifth in the 247 rankings despite having the top WR in the class and a RB somewhere between top 100 and Mike Hart But Fast. Recruiting is accelerating to the point where it looks like hockey.
As far as having it stick, how many decommits does Michigan suffer? Like one per class. So George Campbell just went from like 20% Wolverine to 95%. I'll take it.
Since I've demolished the question above, maybe a new one: how is Brady Hoke doing this?
Mathlete: Based on such a level-headed, well punctuated questions such as that, I am sure you are looking for a technically correct answer. The correct answer is of course not. No team in the history of football has ever had commitments from players of this caliber this early. Hoke is clearly so far ahead in the recruiting game he will probably be resting his starters for the 2015 class with half the time left.
Actually pinning downing commitment dates can be a bit of a challenge and tracking where a commitment is ranked at the time is essentially impossible as the 2015 class has been ranked far faster in the cycle than any other before them. With that in mind, the best I could find in terms of high final rankings committing to a school before the start of September of the players' high school junior year where 2005 Ohio State and 2013 Georgia. In 2005 Tressel got commitments from the eventual top two players in Ohio that early. Five star tackle Alex Boone committed on the 1st of August and high four star cornerback Jamario O'Neal had been committed for six months by the time his junior year kicked off. For this year's Georgia class they had two four stars, safety Tray Matthews and quarterback Brice Ramsey commit in the summer of 2011.
[More drooling, some pretty good justification for drooling, and we make Brian play "Wizard or Rapper", after the jump]
A couple of things stand out to me about the comparisons. First, it is amazing that of the other two times a situation like this has happened, both of the early commitments have been from the home state of the team they committed to. In Michigan's case, neither player even comes from a state that borders their home state. One thing I think that magnifies how this feels is that both Harris and Campbell are skill position players. It's one thing to get a big commitment from a lineman and watch them push tiny high schoolers around, but to get to watch them run by player after player on their way to another 50 yard touchdown run or catch, that's a whole different experience.
The final thing to note about this is that I don't have 2014 or 2015 loaded and the 2015 top 100 are committing quickly. 13 of the 247 composite have already committed to a school. Alabama already, two from out of state. South Carolina also has two commitments in the 2015 top 100. While this is certainly a spectacular start, with the ability to distribute high quality highlight tapes instantly, elite players are being identified, recruited and committing at a faster pace than ever. I will now return to watching George Campbell jump over people and Damien Harris not even have to run through people because he is running past them.
Ace: As [Mathlete] said, there are serious obstacles to figuring out exact commitment dates from bygone classes, so I'll trust his work and echo that we're moving into unprecedented territory — this isn't just a Michigan thing, though, as the pace of recruiting has sped up significantly even just in the last couple years. Just look at the top prospects in the 2014 class: 53 out of the top 100 players on the 247 Composite have already committed to a school and we're still a month away from their senior seasons. That number expands to 150 when we look at the top 250 players. Those figures are all the more eye-popping when accounting for the fact that higher-ranked prospects tend to commit later in the cycle — only three of the top 12 overall prospects have made commitments (including Jabrill Peppers, of course).
|Campbell admitted he did it just for the hugs. via Speight's Twitter.|
The difference between Michigan and the rest of the country, at the moment, is that they're defying that latter trend and snagging the very top prospects at this very early juncture. There are just two other schools that boast a pair of top-50 2015 commits on the 247 Composite, Alabama and South Carolina, but the highest-ranked recruit between the two comes in at #30 (Tide DE commit Mekhi Brown) — George Campbell, at #8 overall, is the highest-ranked commit to any school. No 2014 five-star committed to a school that early in the cycle — the earliest was Tuscaloosa native Bo Scarborough, who committed to Alabama last September. In the 2013 class, the only five-star to commit as early as Campbell (or even within the subsequent four months) was another Alabama prospect who committed to the Tide, tight end O.J. Howard, who pledged in July of 2011.
So Michigan is currently doing something that only Alabama has accomplished in recent years, only the Wolverines are reaching well outside their recruiting base to do so. Is this sustainable? I'm more inclined to guess it's an anomaly, especially with the special circumstances surrounding Campbell — it certainly helps to have his friend and teammate, Mason Cole, committed to the previous class and flying up with him on recruiting visits. On the other hand, Brady Hoke and his cohorts have blown past every reasonable expectation about recruiting, even as we raise those expectations with each subsequent class. Top prospects take notice when other top prospects flock to a certain school — the timing of Damien Harris's commitment was no coincidence, and just look at any Alabama class from the last several years — and Campbell's commitment (and to a lesser extent, Harris's) has attracted serious attention from blue-chips like Jashon Cornell and Brian Cole; 2015 five-star CB Minkah Fitzpatrick's high interest in Michigan is at least in part due to his relationship with Jabrill Peppers.
Can it stick? Sure it can, though something as crazy as plucking the top prospect out of Florida a year-and-a-half before Signing Day isn't going to happen on a yearly basis, by any means. With the increased pace of recruiting, other schools are inevitably going to piece together early commitments of comparable value to Michigan's before too long, too — and a quick start, as we've learned, doesn't always guarantee late success. Still, there's every reason to be very excited about the start to Project 136 and its potential to build into a truly special class.
BiSB: I think it's fair to say that rankings-wise, the start is impressive but not unprecedented. I guess I'm not as shocked by the timing of the commitments as I am by the quality of the players themselves. Sure, Michigan had some advantages in these two particular races, but GOTDAMN LOOK AT THAT KID RUN. If these two committed back-to-back six months from now, it would still be awfully impressive. And given the accelerating pace of recruiting (there are already 9 committed kids in the 2016 class and 2 committed kids in the 2017(???!?!!?!#^%) class), having a few commitments kids at this point is rare but not paradigm-shifting.
What I'm most impressed with is that once again Michigan has snagged a recruiter early in the class. George Campbell seems poised to take the baton from Shane Morris, Michael Ferns, Wilton Speight, and Jabrill Peppers.
The internet has changed recruiting in lots of ways, but one of the under-appreciated ways is that social media allows players to recruit each other much more than in the past. Recruits aren't under the same kind of contact restrictions as coaches (there are no dead periods, for example), and as we all know peer pressure is can be very powerful. That's one of the big reasons I think this latest surge has some staying power; elite-level recruiting is becoming self-reinforcing, and Michigan is in excellent shape in that category through at least the next two classes.
Also, George Campbell can jump out of the building. Which is nice.
*NOTE TO KENTUCKY FANS: Notice I said that players recruiting each other is really important. Fans recruiting players is STOP DOING THAT.
Brian: Seriously. I wonder if part of Michigan's decision-making process when it came to the quarterback they offered for the 2014 class was his ability to pull in the rest of the class a la Morris. Wilton Speight's family flies the kid out to California on the regular so he can go to his quarterback coach--this is a guy with the means to flit about the country acting as ambassador, which he has done with aplomb. Cornwell doesn't seem like the type, not that Alabama needs a lot of help in that department. Meanwhile, Ferns was a guy Michigan was going to go after no matter what but his super-early offer and commitment may have something to do with the fact that he's the type of guy to send people Team 135 t-shirts.
Current commits are your best recruiters: they know who Wiz Khalifa is*, they are unrestricted by the NCAA, they are up-to-date on the latest social whatsits that Brady Hoke knows not wot of, and it doesn't seem like a coincidence that Michigan is getting
|Seems like a wizard.|
bedrock early commits from guys who simulate NCAA seasons just so they can get to recruiting.
*(I do not know who Wiz Khalifa is. Is he a wizard?)
Ace: Wiz Khalifa is a successful rapper, and given his ability that probably required extensive sorcery.
Brian: He can't be that successful. I've heard of a lot of rappers. SNOOP DOGG, anyone? THE ICE CUBE? DOCTOR ANDRE 4000? LARGE BOY? I am all up in the raps.
Seth: Well I was expecting a little more incoherent babbling but since you guys have hit all the points already I'm up for another round of "Wizard or Rap Artist? with Brian. READY?—
While you ponder this, I don't have data for all the players on a Campbellian level but I do have data since 2004 on Michigan's recruits. Record for committing days before NSD is Shane Morris followed by all four 2015 commits:
|1||Shane Morris||QB||MI||4||2013||May 10, '11||638 days|
|2||Andrew David||K||OH||3||2015||Jun 24, '13||590|
|3||Jon Runyan Jr.||OL||PA||4||2015||Jun 25, '13||589|
|4||George Campbell||WR||FL||5||2015||Jul 27, '13||557|
|5||Damien Harris||RB||KY||4||2015||Jul 29, '13||555|
|6||Michael Ferns||LB||OH||4||2014||Aug 9, '12||545|
|7||Greg Brown||DB||OH||3||2011||Sep 2, '09||518|
|8||Dymonte Thomas||DB||OH||4||2013||Sep 11, '11||514|
|9||Kevin Grady||RB||MI||5||2005||Sep 8, '03||513|
|10||Ricardo Miller||WR||MI||3||2010||Sep 29, '08||492|
Having a flag-bearer build a class isn't new. Drew Henson, though an in-state kid, was in every conversation for best recruit in the nation when he committed to Michigan in the fall of 1996 (right after Chris Weinke decided to retire from baseball and seek a second career as FSU's quarterback). Henson began trumpeting the class and this garnered interest from national recruits like David Terrell, Marquise Walker and Justin Fargas.
|That arm. That poise. That chin. That ACT
score! Drew is even a quarterback name!
A young Michael Rosenberg even wrote an article in the Chicago Tribune detailing the exploits of the recruiter with no limits:
Considering that he was committed [to sports] so early, it should be no surprise that Drew Henson committed so early. Henson was a junior at Brighton High School when he walked into Lloyd Carr's office on Nov. 29, 1996 and told Carr he would be a Wolverine. Carr, like Florida State's Bobby Bowden, had promised not to recruit any other quarterbacks in 1997 or 1998 if Henson committed.
But Henson's recruiting process was not finished. He called several top prospects and made the 20-minute drive to Ann Arbor for every major recruiting weekend. Not coincidentally, Michigan's recruiting class was ranked No. 1 in the country after letters of intent were signed Wednesday.
Four hundred thirty-two days later Michigan signed the No. 1 overall class to people who considered such things in the before-time. Since 2004 only two players ranked among the top three players in their class (by Rivals) committed so early: D.J. Fluker (not a rap artist) in 2009 to Bama, and DaQuan Bowers to Clemson in 2008. Linemen probably don't have the same effect.
It's not a slam dunk: Kevin Grady was a 5-star in-state recruit who committed just about two years before his first snap (over a year before Mike Hart had his). He worked Manningham to join his class but even he couldn't lure a defensive back (or convince his coaches they weren't done with Johnny Sears and Chris Richards).
The example that worries me here is Ricardo Miller, like Campbell a tall, leaping receiver with a FAKE 40 time and the best player in Florida. Miller committed, if not this early, still about two years out from when we all expected him to be in a Wolverines uniform, if not THAT uniform. He waved the blue flag and moved to Ann Arbor to get a head start on his Michigan career, then ended up a tight end and never contributed on the field.
So, yeah, that's the darkest spin I can put on this so you don't spend the next two years just drooling about a 2015 freshman. I agree with Brian that this seems to be a strategy of Hoke's to get a standard-bearer who's going to act as a de facto recruiting coordinator with limitless access, and with the other guys that modern connectivity makes such a thing. But even if we start posting FAKE bone fusion metrics along with 40 times, I'm still a bit skeptical that scouting reports based on sophomore video are going to be as accurate as we're used to.
Oh and Brian, he's was a rapper:
Internet: where you can find things like "Nene raps"
But now he's a wizard.
That's all that matters.
Becuase we've got two 4/5* guys in the fold already and almost half the rest of the class is 'lockalicious' or committed already. Very small window for Campbell (and maybe Harris) to make an impact in this class, though if we get close to 15 commits and a few more of those spots open up to get us to 17-19, I suppose we've got a good shot to reel in some more top end guys.
Anyone know how large the 2016 class is supposed to be? We could make a big impact there with these guys in so early and possibly Sven Schwen Swenson in early as well
While in general I agree with you, look what USC was able to do with their "exclusive" class. I actually think that gets guys on board a little quicker and maybe makes the top recruits want to get in more.
There are 18 sophomores on scholarship so assuming there are no redshirts, medical or otherwise, I assume we'll have that plus any attrition that may occur.
The current Seniors make way for the '14 class. The current juniors make way for the '15 class. There are only 13 scholarship Juniors.
So looking at Soph would technically be correct. Still, it's such a long way out that it's way too early to start speculating. I think right now you can maybe ball park it that way with the knowledge that you are very slowly and carefully offer kids at this point you know you'd take, but to nail down anything that's even close to definitive would be dubious at best at this point.
Great read guys. One of my favorite posts (minus Hello: posts) in awhile.
Law of averages says this Ricardo Miller will stay a 5 star player and actually contribute significantly, correct? Also, Miller didn't quite have the offers Campbell has. But yeah, that's a damper on things.
Also, can't we say that Campbell's 40 time is totally not fake? I mean he had two laser timed 40s a month ago in the 4.3's. If we don't take that as REAL, then we should probably just disregard the 40 time totally.
Agree, whether it's fake or not, he was the fasted human at The Opening, so that's a pretty good indicator of speed...
I thought he was a DE
He's being recruited elsewhere as a DE. Michigan reportedly wants him as a TE.
Does he prefer one over the other ??
This strategy should help to lure a top QB. I imagine they would see the top WR and a top RB committing and an Oline that will be experienced and have a lot of depth as being very appealing.
his dad has said he thinks Jr has more upside at DE, but Jr has said he prefers TE, will be interesting to see where he ends up, he has major upside at either position, though, IMO.
I would just like to say that this is probably my favorite feature on Mgoblog now. These roundtable discussions are truly awesome to read and hope they continue weekly once the season starts. Honestly, each year I've gotten the HTTV, I've skipped to the end to read the roundtable first, so yeah, I really enjoy these, keep up the good work.
What I'm most impressed with is that once again Michigan has snagged a recruiter early in the class. (Campbell)
Not only is this gold in and of itself, it also mitigates the fear that he will be lured back to the SEC/South once the "real" recruiting starts.
The best way to keep a top kid from decommiting is to have him spend all of his time worrying about other top kids decommiting from "his" class that he worked hard to build.
The big losers in these insanely early recruiting cycles are the January HS All Star games. They get much of their panache from the Hat Dance surprise of 4/5*'s commiting during the games.
Most of the elite talent is already comitted, and It's no longer a surprise for the handful of guys that actually wait to "officially" commit at the All Star game.
They will either have to move these games to the summer, or have Juniors do the Hat Dance in January to retain any real element of surprise. Even that's getting too late.
I propose that they change these games to Middle School All Star games. I'm only half joking.
But Damien Harris' highlight tape doesn't blow me away like, say, Fournette's. Doesn't mean he won't be a great player for us, but he just doesn't seem to fly. I did read that he ran a 4.40 recently, which surprised me. He looks like a Mike Hart type to me, which I would be absolutely fine with.
My description of Harris has nothing to do with the fact that we likely won't land Fournette. It's strictly based on a look at his highlight video. I didn't see him pulling away from defenders like you typically see in a potential 5-star RB. I think it's funny that you say my comment was the stupidest in a long time, then go on to compare him to Mike Hart, which is exactly what I did, and I said I'd be fine with that.
Since you asked, I think Campbell's highlight video looks amazing; great athleticism, if not a polished receiver (like to see him use his hands more to catch it).
You may now go back to being hyper-sensitive about every comment not dripping with praise.
I'm not going to downvote your opinion but I feel compelled to state that it is not really fair to compare other RB's you might see to Fournette and then dismiss them because they don't measure up. Fournette is one of the best RB prospects I have ever seen and is as close to a guaranteed All American, 3 year and gone in the first round to the NFL-type RB as you will find.
Harris is definitely NOT in the same class as Fournette but he is still pretty darned good. My only "concern" about Harris is the level of competition he faces in a small town in central Kentucky.
I appreciate your level-headed response, and agree with your sentiments. Perhaps had I been as eloquent I wouldn't have been negged so much. I compared Harris to our all-time leading rusher, and somehow that was a slap in the face. All I meant to say was that I've heard about this kid since he was a freshman, and I expected him to look even faster, especially considering the level of competition he faces. I am still very pumped about his commitment and expect great things from him.
"The example that worries me here is Ricardo Miller"
That is kind of a rough comparison. Ricardo was great, but had a big body (great for TE) and was only 6'2" out of high school. A classic tweener. Cambell is much taller and also actually much higher rated (by Rivals) whereas Ricardo was hyped (EDIT: Ricardo ended up a generic 3-star with no national ranking), but never actually recieved the rankings from the recruiting sites.
Also - and I consider Ricardo a friend and I wouldn't put words in his mouth - I personally feel he (Ricardo) was jerked around a bit by the coaches at the time. They were just trying to get him in there for depth at any position in need of it (all of them). It is VERY tough to transfer body mass in the time he was required to do so from WR to TE (and back?) so hopefully this coaching staff doesn't mess with Cambell as much.
I guess my point is I wouldn't "worry" about Cambell being handled the way Ricardo was resulting in the Michigan career that was Ricardo's.
To be clear Ricardo is a GREAT kid and did everything he was asked to do by the coaches and bleeds blue.
Never met him, but he did seem like a really good kid. As for having a better career, he really wasn't fleet enough to play WR, so I thought his only chance was to be a receiving TE (like Funchess, not AJ). I was quite surprised when then switched him back to WR.
Your post is exactly why I don't "geek out" over "elite" recruits. Campbell and Harris may be great, they may be decent or they may ride the pine. There is just so much uncertainty that is seems foolhardy to get overly excited about recruiting.
Side Note: I couldn't even remember who "McNeal" was when I first read your post and had to wrack my brain to finally come up with Bryce McNeal from Minnesota who de-committed and ended up at Clemson. I think he rode the pine for the Tigers IIRC.
With much less knowledge than you on both the football-related and (obviously) personal levels, I always felt bad about his path here, expecially because I didn't understand. Transplanting himself, trying to transform himself, and then fading into the background. So thanks for the bit of insight. Hope he's doing well.
Yeah. I really didn't want to insult him here, since Ricardo is exactly the kind of person you want in your program, according to EVERYBODY I've met who've known him (his high school coaches, guys who covered him in recruiting, and M's coaches who had him).
The point had to be made, however, that we have an example of a guy who looks like the perfect recruit in all ways as a sophomore and then just isn't the athlete he was thought to be when he gets to college.
especially after taking only two in the 2014 class (unless something changes).
Unfortunately, that seems to be the general consensus among the "gurus." I am also not pleased at the prospect of only taking four OL over two classes.
Just because Campbell is so much better scouted already than Ricardo was. If you go back to Ricardo's Hello post, we've got a whole lotta nothing on information and his offer list was decidedly less wow and Campbell has committed (comparably) sooner than Ricardo did.
OTOH, in Campbell's Hello post has a ton of information because kids his age are getting scouted so much more. Heck, there's ESPN footage and interviews with him already. So what I'm saying is, George Campbell is a lot less likely to not meet these lofty rankings because he's been scouted way more than Ricardo was and it feels like a pretty solid foundation to his top 10 ranking
Agreed. I don't see many parallels between Campbell and Ricardo. Anyone worrying he might turn out to have a similar career to Ricardo, must view the glass as not half empty but bone dry.
What about Josh Alabi for the lockacious list...
According to some UM recruiting guys, UM is currently sitting in third place for Alabi behind Tennessee and Ohio State. He is definitely NOT a UM lock.
The OP should realize that after the Offensive Line recruiting we've had along with the DL, that a huge uptick in the skill position recruiting would naturally follow... In fact, I wondered what the top RBs and WRs have been thinking, not jumping at the chance to play here... well, they just did. The dividends of the trench recruiting is gonna continue to be paid in the skill position area.
That was fairly early, wasn't it?