1. Tim Tebow
2. Tim Tebow
3. Tim Tebow
4. Tim Tebow
5. Tim Tebow
6. Tim Tebow
7. Tim Tebow
8. Tim Tebow
9. Tim Tebow
10. Peyton Manning
Peppers at 10, which seems low.
1. Tim Tebow
2. Tim Tebow
3. Tim Tebow
4. Tim Tebow
5. Tim Tebow
6. Tim Tebow
7. Tim Tebow
8. Tim Tebow
9. Tim Tebow
10. Peyton Manning
thought i was gonna come in here and be all creative and make a 1-10 list with only tim tebow on it but look what i found..
The problem with these lists is that they always tend to lean towards the list-maker's favorite team and are always biased towards more recent players. Look, Braylon was great, but was he really better than Larry Fitzgerald or Randy Moss in college? Can you really put Jake Long on there and not have Orlando Pace? Where does Warren Sapp go? Is Reggie Bush really the best running back? How about Eddie George or Ricky Williams?
"Look, Braylon was great, but was he really better than Larry Fitzgerald or Randy Moss in college?"
You can make a case for Braylon over Fitzgerald, but Randy Moss was unreal. The only "knock" on him is that he played at Marshall.
Randy Moss was a great college player. I do knock him for playing at Marshall (both 1-A and 1-AA Marshall, mind you), and I do knock him for well documented off-field snags, but the numbers don't lie. That said, Braylon's intangibles (a stellar senior year with a very young QB, exhausting his eligibility, the MSU game, etc.) just give him more of an edge over Randy Moss in my opinion.
When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Braylon on my team than Moss. Numbers aside.
You can knock Moss for playing at a small school, but doesn't the fact he has been absurdly dominant for long stretches in the NFL kinda demonstrate that he would have been similarly effective at the "BCS" level?
I don't know about Braylon being better than Randy Moss...dude was untouchable and put Marshall on the map! When Braylon starts returning kicks then we can talk...
In 2005 he ran away with the Heisman, even though Vince Young and Matt Leinart were active. He went for 9 yards a carry. George and Williams might deserve it to, but Bush is significantly higher than any RB in recent years.
But, it is always subjective. And in my opinion, yes Braylon was better than both Randy and Larry in college. The guy made Navarre and a freshman Henne look like all world Quarterbacks. I see your point with Eddie George, but again in my opinion Reggie Bush in college was better than Eddie George yes. Ricky Williams, I have never been high on. Warren Sapp was good as well as Orlando Pace...But again, as I said, the list is subjective. There is no one definitive way to determine who is the best. It is just ones opinion.
As you say, it's subjective, but it's hard to claim that Michigan would have 3 representatives on the "ten best" list when schools like Miami, which won something like 5 championships in the time span, have zero.
Jake, Braylon, Charles, and Desmond are on his list.
Yeah, the only one I can argue for is Woodson.
I mean, Jake was great, but was he better than Robert Gallery, Tony Boselli, Joe Thomas, Jon Jansen, Flozell Adams, or Orlando Pace? Maybe some - but I'd say Boselli and Pace were probably better.
I'd say Peter Warrick had a better, and similar, career to Howard, to name one.
Moss was probably better than Braylon.
Then there's all those dudes who never became anything in the pros - like Charlie Ward was fucking amazing. Eric Crouch? Tommy Frazier? Ricky Williams? That fat-ass Wisconsin RB?
Jake was certainly better than Joe Thomas. Thomas' senior year he was not the offensive lineman of the year in the big ten, Jake was. And the Jake was again the next year.
However, Hutch was better than both. He was all Big Ten 4(!) times.
I wasn't necessarily saying Thomas was better - my point is that it's hard to differentiate between these road-grader type OT's.
Willis McGahee's PCL.
Woody Williams 15 arrests.
glenn dorsey? glenn f*cking dorsey!?
I will say this: by sheer statistical weight, it is nearly impossible to claim Tebow is not one of the ten best players of the past 20 years. I'm trying to think of a QB who's career would match his after he adds ANOTHER season of accomplishments, and I can't.
Really. "sheer statistical weight".
TT is not even on the list of the top 30 QBs (2008)
Not in top 20 (2007)
Not in top 30 (2006)
Based on Yards passing.
Nice try. But just posting "sheer statistical weight" does not make it so.
Give us some real stats.
I expect way more from WLA.
So you're going to compare Tebow's passing yards to Harrell's on 200 fewer attempts? That's well reasoned.
My preferred measure of QB'ing is yards per pass attempt (obviously, you need a minimum number of pass attempts to qualify - I wouldn't compare a QB to a RB who throws 2 complete bombs), as it balances out completion %, and difficulty of throw. It is, literally, how much the QB produces every time they go back to throw.
This year, Tebow is 3rd, behind Tulsa's David Johnson and Sam Bradford. He also had a 30/4 TD Int. He also threw fewer interceptions per attempt than any QB in football.
Last year, Tebow was 1st in yards per attempt and 1st in interceptions per attempt.
Add in that he ran for 1700 yards between the two years which is more than you can say for any QB that is in the passing discussion, and led a team to a National Championship, it's hard to argue.
Really: Same source as above for 2008.
Johnson 10.1 YPA
My statistical professor would have flunked my if I called this "sheer statistical weight"
Goodson is a running back, I have no idea who Robinson is.
I can't find a Goodson on this list:
I missed Zac Robinson, my bad.
Regardless, you're distorting my argument. I specifically included the assumption that Tebow would play again next year and have a season of comparable quality. I think we'll be hard pressed to find a 3-year starter (and 4-year contributor) who plays at that high a level for the duration of his career, based on YPA, Passer Efficiency, rushing yards, and National Championships. Yes, longevity counts. Does contributing for 4 years make Tebow a "better college player" than someone who has only 2 good years? Yes. When Tebow played a significant role on a championship team, Bradford was redshirting.
but the four best players I've seen in college football, in terms of a non-stat opinion, based strictly on their impact on a game and dominating the opponent, are Bush, Tebow, Woodson and Young
I agree with all four of the guys you've listed above. I think one criteria should be if the individual was capable of taking over a game...basically beating a team all by himself. Those guys above did that...
Bush against Fresno State among others
Young ofcourse in the Rose Bowl against USC
Tebow against Alabama, Florida State
Woodson against OSU
BLASPHEMOUS... I REFUSE TO READ ANY FURTHER!!!
Harris completed all his passes for touchdowns. Yes, all of them! Sure, he only threw one, but what more do you want? (Your link shows a lot of running backs who've throw passes, I think.)
Tebow's the no. 2 career passer at the moment, though:
Personally, I want to wait until the guy goes pro to make any judgements on his career. Could be in a few months, although we'll see.
Because passing yards is the ONLY stat that define good quarterback play.
Maybe you should stop watching Michigan football for a while, I guarantee we're not going to do well in the passing yards category.
Tebows value is not solely passing. The man runs tough. Over his 3 years on the gators he has 43 rushing tds, which is more than Mike Hart had for his career. I'd say he had impressive stats.
In the past 20 years, I can't think of a better college or professional WR than a properly-motivated Randy Moss.
Dude basically put Marshall on the map. Didn't he break Desmond's record for consecutive games with a TD catch? (which I believe was later broken by Larry Fitzgerald)Randy was unstoppable and even returned kicks!
Again, I would put those guys on my team and not flinch. That is over Moss, Fitzgerald and throw whatever receiver you want to out there. I would take Vince the unstoppable freaking Young over Tebow. We made Tebow look like cat litter, Vince Young was looking like a video game when we played him. Jake IMHO was the best tackle that I have seen. Again, let me qualify my picks by players I have actually seen play. I can't say that I follow college football with enough verocity to say that I've seen every play that Pace made or Joe Thomas. I just saw them play Michigan and again I would take Jake without batting an eye. If I really wanted to be a homer I could have taken Henson or Brady or some crap like that.
Bluetell wherever there's an obvious joke (that's already been completely beaten into the ground) waiting to be made, then I'll be there to make it happen.
I am glad somebody mentioned Tommie Frazier, that guy was about as dominant as anybody I can remember in recent college football history. Didn't he miss the entire year one season and still come back for the bowl game and tear it up?? He'd probably be my #1. In terms of best that I've seen in person I'd probably go with Woodson, McNabb or (ugh)Kordell Stewart.
I would have to agree with that. I forgot totally about Frazier.
McNabb is probably the best college player I can remember seeing in the past 15 years.
I almost fell off the bleacher in the student section when McNabb came around left tackle into the open field and put a ridiculous juke on whatever poor LB/DB was coming up to try and tackle him. I was amazed.
Jake Long? Come on dude, I know all us Michigan fans love him, but would anyone in their right mind put an O-Lineman on that list?
put an O-Lineman on the list. If you watch the guy play the position and see how he dominated defenders. How he just flat out pancaked guys and know that most of those most rushing yards in school history Mike Hart got he got running behind Jake then yeah, I think it warrants a look. Again, I will say it is subjective. IF I put four Michigan guys on my top ten then I do. I tell you what, I wouldn't put Tebow in top five quarterbacks more less players that I have seen in college. But again your list is your list and this isn't hey pick apart my list. The post was writing in the hopes of seeing who you guys thought were the top ten players you've seen in the past 20 years.
This is what you said in your post: "I couldn't argue with anyone who takes objectection with my list"
Then you go ahead and argue with my objection. Strange.
The problem is that o-lineman are difficult to judge. They don't have numbers that you can stand behind. Watching them in action proves difficult as you generally try to follow the ball (which they don't have). Jake Long was great, obvs. #2 of the last 20 years is a sttttttttttttretch. There. Again, I have objected to your list, and according to your own post, you can't argue with it.
Me giving reason as to why I consider him to be in my top ten is not arguing it is stating my case for my selection.
This doesn't strike me as stating your case: "But again your list is your list and this isn't hey pick apart my list."
Also, you wrote: "The post was writing in the hopes of seeing who you guys thought were the top ten players you've seen in the past 20 years."
But you never made that clear in the post, that was just in your head, or you just thought it up on the spot.
To me your coming across as if objecting to your pick is somehow against your "rules", whereas in your post you clearly state that objections are fine. I don't get it.
I'll stop now, it's far too late to fuck around with this.
Good idea for a post though.
If you're going to go with so many Michigan players you might as well add Derrick Alexander, David Terrell, Tom Brady, Drew Henson, Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Marlin Jackson, Leon Hall, Lamar Woodley, Alan Branch, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Alain Kashima, the freak
At first I saw this post and was all excited to throw Red Grange, "The Galloping Ghost," in the list. Then I saw that it was limited to the past 20 years.
I haven't thought about a complete list, but I'll at least say that Tebow, Woodson, Young, Howard, Dayne and Sanders (assuming he can still edge in the 20 year mark) are on mine. I don't want to limit the list to just skill players, so Orlando Pace and Warren Sapp would probably have a place on there too, but again, I haven't thought about it much. I'm drawing a blank on linebackers. Arrington maybe?
If the time period were a little longer, I'd probably throw Bo Jackson on there too.
Take all the award winners and finalists from each position over the past 20 years, that will give you list of about 1000. From there, look for repeat finalists, margin of victory over runner up, team record and end of year ranking, and a few other variables, run a regression. This will give you the result you seek.
1. Vince Young
2. Tim Tebow
4. Fat running back from Wisconsin
5. Manning (the funny one, not the doochebag in NY)
6. Reggie Bush
7. Matt Leinart
8. Charles Woodson
9-17. A bunch of dudes who played in the late 80's/early 90's, whom I cannot remember because it just doesn't really matter.
18. Some Houston quarterback... they used to put up sick numbers.
19. Barry Sanders
In any order you want but mine top players are Barry Sanders, Ron Dayne, Ricky Williams, Charles Woodson, Vince Young, Reggie Bush, Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, Tim Tebow.
It took 31 posts before anyone mentioned Barry Sanders?? You should all be slathered with peanut butter and tied to a Fire Ant hill. Or to a tree in Charlie Weis' front yard.
...Barry was mentioned in the initial post and taken out of consideration for being outside the timeframe of the list. Otherwise, he would clearly be on top of the list.
1989 would be twenty years ago in my math. And barry, deion, troy and tony were all drafted that year. And they (maybe minus troy) would be on my list. What about Little LT from TCU? (he did run for 419yds in one game) Can I use miami's defence from the coker days as one choice? Yes I think Tony Mandrich was a better tackle (college player) then Pace, Thomas, or Jake.
Man that guy works for a Canadian TV station now.
The fact that Tony Mandrich used steroids doesn't affect how you view him? Imagine Jake Long on steroids....man.
Has to include the 1988 season, we're like a week in to 2009.
I assume the OP meant "twenty seasons." 1988 was 21 seasons ago.
This is pretty biased but I have my very good reasons. Chris Long was a far, far better college player than Glenn Dorsey. Whether or not Long actually belongs on the list, I don't know....haven't given thought yet to the other 9 or 10. I think he absolutely belongs in the discussion. But Dorsey played for LSU and Long for UVA, so of course Dorsey got the press. I promise you this: Long was by far the more dominant lineman.
Vince Young and Charles Woodson are the top two, IMO.
College Football's Top Ten Greatest Players of the Past 20 Years
1. tie, Charles Woodson, Desmond Howard and Braylon Edwards
2. tie, Mike Hart, Anthony Thomas and Tom Brady
3. tie, Jake Long, Tripp Wellborne and Amani Toomer
4. tie, Lamarr Woodley, David Harris and Ty Law
5. tie, Larry Foote, Brian Griese and Jarrett Irons
6. tie, Chad Henne, Chris Perry and Jon Runyan
7. tie, Sam Sword and Ian Gold
8. tie, Remy Hamilton, Zoltan Mesko, and Steve Breston
9. Tim Tebow
10. tie, Stevie Brown, Johhny Sears, the Coner
1. Tony Mandarich
2. Jason White
3. Lawrence Phillips
4. Gino Toretta
5. Brian Bosworth
6. Mike Williams
7. Rae Carruth
8. Marvin Jones
9. Major Harris
Stevie Brown i mean come on all the other teams thought he was too.
For having 5 out of the top 10 players. You'd think we'd have more national championships than 1 in that span.
Doing a straight up top 10 is way to hard for me, trying to adjust value for position and all, I think I'll just go position by position. Also, I'm 20, so I'm not reaching back to when I was 1....I'm just going by guys who stick out in my head.
Vince Young is the QB. Tebow is close, and I can't take anything away from him, but Vince Young was scary in college. Both of them could will their teams to victories, but Young gets the nod because Tebow hasn't lead more than 1 comeback, and Vince Young has that Okie State game.
Long is one of if not the best O-lineman I've seen but I'm not sure that in college an individual tackle makes that much of a difference due to the general lack of top flight DE's.
Best WR is Calvin Johnson, at least that I saw play. Braylon was close but watching Johnson play in college was amazing. He was uncoverable. He was the fastest guy on the field on every down, and going up for a jump ball it looked like he was Shaq boxing out a 10 year old, it was unfair.
Best Rb is hard... Shady McCoy has been incredible to watch, as has Moreno, Reggie Bush was the most explosive player I've ever seen, and I don't really have to say anything about Hart. I'm hesitant to say Hart because I feel like a homer, and he certainly wasn't the most talented, but I think he deserves a spot.
Best DE. Wanna go with Woodley, but I gotta go with Chris Long. He was a force on that defense, an absolute monster.
Best DT. Maybe Dorsey, he's at least the first name that comes to mind. Terrence Cody this year. No idea really, I'll defer to anyone who can remember DT's not at Michigan from 3 or more years ago.
Best LB is Laurenitis. I'm sorry, I hate the buckeyes as much as anyone, but he has been a ridiculously consistent performer, and at MLB, that is what you want.
Best DB is Woodson, I don't remember watching him very much, but I've seen the highlights, plus, if you're the only DB not wearing a leather helmet to win the Heisman, you get the nod.
I'm shortsighted and don't remember much before 2006ish in college football, which was when I really started following intensely. I'm probably way off on a few of them, and I'm forgetting at least 5 or 6 guys who should stick out like sore thumbs, but just off the top of my head thats where I'd put them.
This is hard to do because I want to reflect on NFL careers also. When I see names like Tommie Harris and Adrian Peterson, I want to believe they were better players than, say, Ryan Leaf or Shaun King.
Off the top of my head I can name four heisman trophy winners and one runner up that did nothing in the nfl.
1. Tommy Frazier (who arguably was the Vince Young before Vince Young) and quite honestly he needs to be on my list of college players.
2. Andre Ware (But as a footnote to his career he was drafted by the Lions, so how much of a career could he have had)
3. Charlie Ward (he had a so so nba career so life didn't turn out that bad for him, I guess)
4. Troy Smith (now, granted this one remains to be seen. But I hate Ohio State so he is on the list)
Honorable Mention goes out to Gino Toreta (sp?) I don't know how to spell the guys name. lol Well, anyway he gets a shout out for probably being the biggest bust.
Heisman winners don't always map well to the NFL, and Toretta won the Heisman because he was QB of an undefeated Miami team. That was pretty obvious at the time--Minnesota didn't draft him until the seventh round. He hung on in the league for a while.
I think it's disappointing that Ward didn't play in the NFL, but I think it was a very smart decision for him. He probably had a longer career, made more money and risked his body much less than he would have in the NFL. I think he might have made it in the NFL at QB. (Then again, I wanted the Lions to draft Jake Plummer, so what do I know.)
No particular order (position players only): Barry Sanders, Tommy Frazier,Reggie Bush, C-Wood, Deion Sanders, Vince Young, The Rocket, Calvin Johnson, Tebow, Larry Fitzgerald
In no particular order:
1. Charles Woodson
2. Vince Young
3. Reggie Bush
4. Tim Tebow
5. Randy Moss
6. Larry Fitzgerald
7. Tommy Frazier
8. LaVar Arrington
9. Drew Brees
10. Ted Ginn/Desmond Howard/Deshean Jackson/Rocket Ismail
Frazier, Tebow, Young - Probably the three most fun players to watch at QB ever.
I think Frazier was probably the best of all of them.
Best overall? That's so hard to compare.
How can you say a corner that can completely shutdown half of the field is better than a RB that can't be tackled?