and Al Borges seems more open to the idea now that the NFL is heading in that direction
Has he actually stated this? Or are we just going off his presumed preference of using NFL tactics?
Michigan's 2015 quarterback situation is the subject of much conjecture and little more, as the only prospect offered at the position—California five-star Josh Rosen—has stated that he's not interested in the Wolverines. Several names have been thrown out there as potential backup options, with player types ranging from pocket statues to Gardner-like dual threats. If Michigan wants to go the latter route—and Al Borges seems more open to the idea now that the NFL is heading in that direction—then a five-star option has emerged in CA ATH Kevin Dillman, per 247's Ryan Bartow [free article, also contains sources saying that JuJu Smith currently favors Notre Dame and Alabama over the field right now, and Michigan gets mentioned among the leaders of several 2015 prospects]:
3- Kevin Dillman, 5-star QB, La Mirada (Calif.)
Michigan and Nebraska are his Top 2. If Michigan offers, the Wolverines could likely land a commitment this winter or spring.
“I grew up watching Tom Brady. If there was one offer I could wish for it would be Michigan. I really like their coaching staff,” - 5-star QB Kevin Dillman, La Mirada
Please and thank you, right? Well, we'll see. Dillman's sophomore highlights (above) show a lot more of the athlete side—the first clip is a kick return—than the downfield passing aspect that Borges will focus on heavily when deciding whom to offer. Personally, I'd love to see Michigan go the dual-threat route, and if Dillman has enough to work with as a passer, he seems like the best available—and highly interested—option.
Nobody seems to have a clear picture of the 2015 QB pecking order after Rosen, though, and I'm assuming the coaches are hoping to evaluate several options more extensively once junior film starts rolling in. With room for just one QB in the class, this approach makes sense—the coaches can't afford to miss.
One such option is Brother Rice QB Alex Malzone, who's off to a strong start this season. He's the headlining visitor for Minnesota in a quiet weekend for uncommitted prospects and another prospect who's likely to commit if offered, though I think Dillman and a handful of other quarterbacks are higher priorities. Malzone is mentioned as one of five Midwest juniors "on the rise" this season—along with Cass Tech RB Mike Weber—by Allen Trieu.
[Hit THE JUMP to see which Michigan commit is nominated for Gatorade's national player of the year—yeah, you probably guessed it—plus evaluations of a few commits and more.]
Sam Webb catches up with Jabrill Peppers to talk about his recruitment of Da'Shawn Hand ($) [emphasis mine]:
Sam Webb: Why are you confident Michigan is going to get Da'Shawn Hand?
Jabrill Peppers: “He is down for the education first and then the athletics. He wants to be an engineer and Michigan has the top engineering school, one of the top engineering schools. He definitely sees the bigger picture. I think he is open to see all the guys that we have already and just coming in and joining our unit. Bottom line is there is no place like Michigan. I know he felt that on that visit. He was able to do one thing that I couldn’t do and that was to attend the Michigan and Notre Dame game. That atmosphere was crazy, I know it was crazy and I know he was loving it. You can fit any college stadium in there at least one time. I’m feel it when I’m out there playing. I’m 98% sure that we are going to get him.”
So that's nice.
While we've heard plenty about Peppers, his Michigan commit teammate, OT Juwann Bushell-Beatty, often gets overshadowed in the process. Tim Sullivan caught last weekend's Paramus Catholic-Cleveland St. Ignatius matchup and came away impressed with JBB's athleticism and strength while noting a few areas for improvement ($):
It is easy to see why Bushell-Beatty is not considered a finished product, however. In addition to a body that needs to be molded by a college strength and conditioning program, his technique could use some refining as well. He is a bit of a waist-bender, and puts his head down too frequently in run blocking, which can allow defenders to shed his blocks more easily. Many of his issues are typical of young linemen, and a redshirt year to get in the weight room and to learn technique should be enough to bring him up to speed.
Personally, I'd much rather have an offensive line recruit with the requisite size, strength, and athleticism but in need of technique work than vice versa; this goes double for JBB, who moved "exceptionally well" despite having a "bit of a belly," according to Tim—get him in the weight room and practice him up a bit and he could be a force.
In other commit-related stuff, 247 posted cut-ups of Freddy Canteen from last weekend:
Aside from the fumble on the reverse, everything here looks very good: his route-running, acceleration, top speed, and hands all impress, and he looks to be an intelligent player as well—I like the way he works his way back to the quarterback when a play breaks down.
Finally, Tim also watched Shaun Crawford's dominant performance against Erie McDowell—I'm pretty sure The Wolverine found a way to clone Tim, and the results have been great—and he concludes that the only thing keeping Crawford from potential five-star status is his size ($). Crawford shows off everything you'd want in a corner, though, including being a force in run support; even if he doesn't grow another inch, he's a top-notch prospect.
I've been remiss in not posting these segments before, as they're ten minutes of TomVH covering pressing Michigan recruiting topics—this week's edition includes talk about Malik McDowell, Alex Malzone, and the 2015 quarterback class as a whole.
and Al Borges seems more open to the idea now that the NFL is heading in that direction
Has he actually stated this? Or are we just going off his presumed preference of using NFL tactics?
I'm pretty sure he stated this flat-out in a presser from fall camp, but I can't find the quote right now. Still, the prospects being considered in the 2015 class are telling—several dual-threat types are under consideration (Dillman and Sheriron Jones, most prominently) and even most of the pocket passers display a certain level of athleticism. Borges isn't going to go to the spread-and-shred or anything, but I think he's realizing more and more the value of having a QB who can create with his legs.
Huh, thanks for the info. I'm torn on this--I'd love to retain some QB mobility, but I'm also freaked out if our OC's thought process is "well, the NFL has now decided this is an okay thing, so I should incorporate it into my gameplan."
Absolutely enoughalready! Hit the nail
dealing with two different levels of maturity with the athlete. I would rather look at concepts that work well in college with kids who are between 18-22 than older professionals. Maybe that is the wrong thought process.
The comment also assumes that the NFL is actually "heading in that direction" rather than "has had some recent, albeit limited, success".
Which type of QB's are having the most success right now in the NFL? Is it the crafty pocket passer's? Or this new breed?
Give me a QB who can read a defense, throw accurately and not turn the ball over. You can have your dual threat QB's. I want a scrambler and guess what Johhny Football is a scrambler.
Exactly. This is a Fad in the NFL right now, nothing more nothing less. The pocket will continue to be the safest place for a QB.
Give me a guy who can make all the throws first. If he is mobile, great.
I have yet to see a dual threat at any level be able to make all the throws. If you can't operate in the pocket, feel free to commit to another school. I won't lose sleep over you.
That's EXTRA douchey. I would say you're lucky you didn't direct that towards any particular recruit.
PLENTY of dual-threat QBs can make all the throws. Michael Vick has a huge arm and despite his turnover issues, can be shockingly accurate. Russell Wilson doesn't have a cannon, but he can make all the throws. RGIII can make all the throws. Kaepernick has some accuracy issues, but he can make those throws as well.
Part of the issue is exposure. No, not all dual-threat QBs are good passers. But there are some who could for all the world be standard pocket passers, but their teams in high school or college run them a bunch because it's another tool to use. Thus, sometimes good passers don't put up stellar numbers.
This isn't a baseless rationalization, BTW. I agree that, especially in Borges' system, passing ability will always come first. But you don't have to be a shortsighted dick about it.
Douchery because I'm tired of Michigan trotting dual threat QB's on the field who can't take care of the ball. Are in accurate and can't read a defense? I'm over dual threats. My fascination with football is not limited to yards between the 30 yard lines.
Between Tate, Denard and Devin, I don't know how not to be shortsighted about dual threats, especially at Michigan.
Give me a Chad Henne clone please. Borges would turn into everyone's favorite Offensive coordinator if he had Chad to work with.
It's incredible to me that a Michigan football fan can have this viewpoint. How many dual-threats have to burn us before you start to think they're effective?
It's also odd that you say this:
My fascination with football is not limited to yards between the 30 yard lines.
and then cite to Devin, who has been more effective in the red zone than any Michigan QB in memory.
Your sample size with Devin is 8 games. Calm down. After the past 2, I wonder if he is even still the most effective.
I think you're pulling that stat before Akron.
To your point about dual threats burning us, I blame our defensive philosophy and lack of speed on that side of the ball over the last decade for that.
Build a stout defensive line and then enjoy the clinic we will put on to any team who's base offense is the read option.
Because I can't imagine anyone younger using those meaningless old-man phrases.
Gardner was perfect in the red zone before Akron, so he's probably still the most effective RZ QB i the nation. Also, you don't get to talk out both your mouth and your ass when you whine about Gardner's turnovers, then use the small sample size in your favor later.
Remember 2011 Northwestern? We got burned pretty hard on the ground, and that was one darn good defensive line. Or how about 1998 Syracuse? Or The Horror (forgive me)?
If you think 2011 was a good defensive line, we need to stop discussing football.
That was one of the worst defensive lines at Michigan in my lifetime. Only defensive lines with less talent on them were 2009, 2010, 2012 and this year.
Martin is the only one on the 2011 line in the NFL and he doesn't start.
Now if you said, biggest overachievers, I would agree. Mattison got as much out of them as humanly possible. Still, that was an average D-Line at best.
therefore, I would have to say they were very good. All we're interested in is results, not what they grade out at or how many stars-although that line had quite a few stars after their names. Now just because Tom Brady went in the fifth round by your logic you would say he was not a good qb, correct? Think the same can be said for many others who merely got the job done, and remember that was a case where our coach was so clueless he uttered his famous phrase, 'He is the greatest qb I've ever coached," speaking about the backup, Drew Henson. You remember him, the one he knew he could start before he was ready because he had the understudy, Mr. Brady to bail him out.
There's a whole nation of college football out there and you can't get over this extreme myopia? What's wrong with you? Never mind that you're bootstrapping accuracy issues and the ability to read a defense as if either of those skills has anything to do with running talent. I'm struggling to understand how this comment could get more absurd.
...Are in accurate and can't read.
Tell that to Saban.
Do you honestly believe that Alabama's offense is better because AJ McCarron can't run?
That's not what he's saying. But no QB is good at everything, and lots are very successful without being able to run. Look at the top QBs in the south right now, save Manziell - McCarron, Mettenberger, Murray, Boyd, etc. all pocket passers. And those are some really good offenses.
Tajh Boyd is not a "pocket passer" in any traditional sense. He's rushed over 10 times a game and has 4 TDs in the ground.
While Murray is generally categorized as a pocket passer, he definintely has great mobility, and rushed for nearly 200 yards his first 2 years as a starter.
people complained about Navarre all the time and Henne not being able to run and now they want to clone them.
The fact of the matter is... the burden of proof is on the dual threat qb's right now.
As great as they can be, they can also be a flash in the pan. One or two good years and done.
We saw one get to the super bowl last year. I can see russell wilson as a pocket passer, the same way donovan mcnabb was. Some of those dual threats with dangerous legs, have the ability to also become great stay at home pocket passers. Those are the most successful, in my oponion... although i'm sure you will resort to some kind of attack response like you have with the other posters
take it down a notch b... who put icyhot on your torpedo
I think you're probably right. What got me heated is the insinuation that the ability to take off and run for yards has ANYTHING to do with a QB's ability to throw the ball. They are not related. There are statues who can and can't throw, and there are runner who can and can't throw.
I have always preferred guys like Harbaugh that can move some and are still looking upfield to make a big play, a scramble or 2 a game is fine. but I am always worried that my starter gets hit 15-20 times a game and not surviving the year like last year with Denard.
QB's these days have to have SOME escapability but you better have 2 or 3 stud QB's if you want to run them a lot.
There's plenty of traditional drop back passers in college and the NFL that aren't accurate and are not panning out as well. I don't know why we continue to only apply this theory to mobile quarterbacks.
The best QB's in the NFL are passers first. They rely on their arm, brains and footwork in the pocket over their legs.
This will never, and I mean never change.
Football NEVER evolves
"When you throw a pass three things can happen to it, and two of them are bad"
That passing BS will never, and I mean never change and catch on in the NFL...
I mean, if you don't have a good defense and a strong running game you'll never win
Because that's an apples to apples comparison.
Defensive players are too big and fast now-a-days for a Dual threat to succeed in the NFL. Add to that, the QB is the teams biggest investment. There is no place safer for a QB than the pocket. That will never change.
What you see in the NFL is a fad. Took one half in the Eagles first game for them to get figured out. Washington isn't nearly effective this year because they are trying to protect RG3.
49'ers are TBD. So far, their offense doesn't look nearly as explosive as last year.
Seahawks lean on their defense. Russell Wilson is also a game manager who can scramble. He has the best shot of having a long career out of the bunch.
Time will tell, but in 3 years, I bet there's still only 1-3 "dual threats" starting in the league.
I wish there was some way for us to relay just how uneducated you sound about the game of football right now.
While I don't agree with everything he has said in all his posts above, a lot of what he just said in the last post is very true.
- Eagles have slowed down since that ridiculous first half against Washington.
- Washington's offense is a lot less dynamic because its too big of a risk to get RG3 hurt.
- San Francisco hasn't looked like the same team as last year on offense. And when the actually got going it was because of Gore in traditional under center runs, not pistol.
- Wilson does rely on his defense and often manages the game.
Unfortunately, most of these people only care about yards and more yards, so they can make a graph about it. the bigger the graph the better.
The dual threat fad in the NFL will slowly fade away now that there is film on these guys. Again, defenses are too big and too fast for a dual threat QB to have sustained success in the NFL. You don't need to be a rocket scientist or vince limbardi to draw that conclusion.
I hope Borges makes the right decision and targets pocket passers first and if they can scramble great, but it's not a neccessity to get recruited.
I agree with most of what you say. From my experience you are fighting a losing battle here. Not trying to disrespect any posters, but there is majority who swear by dual threat and spread. Many of them probably started getting into football more seriously, like schemes, in the new spread age. And all the worlds problems can be solved with a bubble screen or Qb oh-no. I am not saying those things are inferior or don't work. But there is a proven record that pocket passers and pro styles work too. I understand the success there has been in college with spread systems and running quarterbacks. I don't doubt that those are sound schemes and are very successful. I just don't believe it will last in the NFL. Why didnt the triple option catch on in the NFL? Like you said defenses are too good. QB's take a lot hits in these systems. Look at RG3 already. They basically cannot function like they did last or RG3 will break in half. Mike Vick has been hurt on and off his whole career.
Now with that said, I do like mobile QB's. Give me someone who has the athletic ability of a Jay Cutler. I don't want a statue. And I think thats what Borges is referring to.
And I think Dillman is more of Borges is looking for. 6'4" 225lbs and can move. We need to see more evidence on his arm though.
Whether or not a running QB can survive in the NFL is one thing; lots of teams have running QBs in college and most of them manage to play entire seasons without getting injured.
It is undeniable that an offense can be successful even if its QB is immobile. But having a mobile QB is obviously an advantage over not having a mobile QB.
Now, certainly if you are running a pro-style offense that emphasizes precision passing, you are going to look for QBs who have good passing skills first and their running ability is kind of secondary. But it's wrong to just assume that if a guy can run, then he must not be able to throw. Not only are the two things logically unrelated, but there have been plenty of successful QBs who could do both--and Devin Gardner, despite his recent struggles, is a good example. Indeed, if we could recruit a Devin Gardner every year or two, I would take that in a heartbeat.
Firstly, you're straight-up wrong about Philadelphia. It's turnovers that's hurting them and they're not QB running much. Vick doesn't have 10 attempts in a game yet...and he's averaging almost 9 yards a carry. That's clown talk, bro.
Secondly, 3 years isn't "forever," as you so boldly proclaimed before.
Thirdly...nope. There's just too much asshattery to dig through.
Connect the dots on the turnovers.
It has nothing...NOTHING...to do with Vick being a dual-threat QB. He's always been careless with the ball, at least after imprisonment.
Tony Romo and Mark Sanchez turn the ball over a shitload, too.
You're wrong. Vick probably won't be the QB there next year. So remember this debate and let's see where Philly's QB ranks next year with Turnovers.
I bet they are close to leading the league. In Philly's case though, it's a combination of that style of play, and needing a QB that spent his entire life relying on his legs over his arm running it.
That's if Chip makes it to next year.
Communicating with a brick wall is proving impossible. I at least hope you're getting a workout beating up those straw men of yours. Make sure to get more fiber in your diet, you constipated geezer.
Would it kill you to show respect to other posters on the board? You managed to throw an insult into almost every one of your posts in the discussion you were having. The other poster committed no offense other than disagreeing with you. He could make the same brick wall comment about you.
TwoFiveAD has a track record of douchey, incendiery posts, so I don't feel too bad. I also consider attempting to argue the same point both ways (like he did with the limited sample size for Gardner) to be dishonest, which is something I don't condone.
That being said, I could probably lighten up a bit.
Douchery posts that you and I have gone back and forth on:
Disagreeing that Dileo and Norfleet need more touches. I say they are getting targeted exactly as many times as they should given their size. You couldn't handle that and took it as a personal attack towards them.
Now this debate.
You need to take some time off from the board BlastBeat. You're way too involved.
"Defensive players are too big and fast now-a-days for a Dual threat to succeed in the NFL." I've never understood this argument... it makes no sense in my opinion. Will NFL teams stop using running backs too because defenses have gotten so big and fast? I'm not saying that dual threat quarterbacks are or aren't the future of the NFL but all things being equal, would you want your quarterback to be a good or bad runner, assuming that it has no impact on his passing? There are already a few guys who can throw it pretty well who are pretty mobil, I think it's certainly believable that as more and more college and high school teams use dual threat quarterbacks that the NFL will find some guys who are great passers who are also great runners.
The difference between college and NFL is that college coaches have the luxury of having 4 maybe 5 other QB's on the roster that are younger and nearly as good as the starter. In the NFL you usually have a major drop off with you backup and you are paying your starter big time money. No one wants to risk their investment by running him 15 times a game. As last night's Thursday night game proved, its hard enough to keep your pocket passer healthy (although both were running when injuried) let alone a dual threat QB. Hate to say it but there is a good chance RG3 is already damaged and might not ever again be the player we saw last year. Has Michael Vick ever played a full 16 game season in the NFL?
That doesn't mean that mobile quarterbacks won't eventually become as accurate as the top passers in the game over time. Behind every starting mobile quarterback in the NFL are a few traditional QB's on the roster that aren't good enough to start in the NFL. I don't direct this at you personally to put words in your mouth, but some people just throw out the Manning and Brady example as if those guys just grow on trees and are the obvious alternative to having a mobile quarterback.
I just pulled something completely out of my ass with regard to humanity, but it just FEELS right, ya know? It's just like how distance runners are more ... accurate in their strides than long jumprrs or sprinters. Slow twitch, y'all. The most accurate of muscle twitches.
There's two things I think matter above all else.
1. An elite or close to elite defense with NFL caliber players sprinkled throughout.
2. A solid offensive line that has the ability to move people and run block. And play ball control offense.
UM is getting closer and closer to an elite level D. JMFR's return will help that. A lot of youngsters growing up before our eyes.
I think if UM gets the OL figured out and establishes a better down the field threat, and can run the ball more effectively they're in good shape. I also think the absence of turnovers will be a byproduct of the OL's improvement.
After that I honestly don't think the style of QB really matters at that point. As long as they can make the plays and necessary passes within the offense. If the QB manages the game and makes plays and doesn't turn the ball over then I don't really think it matters if they're good runners/athletes or just stone feet pocket passers or anything in between. Hence Hokes emphasis on D, and OL in recruiting. He understands the importance. I almost want to say we might have a better OL across the board next year than we have this year.
Example Cam newton vs aj McCaron
Both good quality qb's on really good teams with great fronts, just different styles of play.
Cam was 3x the college qb McCarron was... Cam was the offense... McCarron is just another guy on the offense... i would take a dual threat every day of the week... even if he is not the polished passer... but if thats the case u must give him simple passing reads... somerhing that Borges is not willing to do