Three And Out Takes: Carr, Rodriguez, Martin Comment Count

Brian

imageSo. It's out.

I'm impressed with the large numbers of people who seem to have already blazed their way through Three and Out. It took me a while. I stopped for a few days after "Honeymoon from Hell" because it was too depressing; every chapter featuring a game I knew they'd lose spectacularly required a little bit of willpower to start.

But I'm done and a large number of you are done. It is time to talk the turkey.

We've got this document. What does it say about major players in the saga? I was planning one part here but this got long, so today we'll cover Carr, Rodriguez, and Bill Martin, with various players with less prominent roles in the story covered in a post tomorrow.

Lloyd Carr

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It says a few things about Lloyd Carr that are not nice, and implies more. Bacon's said he left a lot of things out that he could not get multiple sources on, which is both his responsibility as an actual journalist and horribly frustrating.

The main strikes:

  1. Informing his former players he would sign any transfer papers they wanted at his meeting with them after their bowl game, a marked contrast from the Bo-Bump transition.
  2. Telling Mallett he "needed to leave".
  3. Having zero control over his former players, or—worse—tacitly endorsing their behavior by not jumping down their throats.
  4. Offering something short of the fiery defense Bo would have launched once the program started taking fire.

That's aside from the state of the roster when Rodriguez took over, which wasn't specifically directed at the new man.

Those seem like major strikes. Screw it: those are major strikes, particularly #3. I find it inconceivable that Eric Mayes would made it thirty seconds into the embarrassing "we own this program" speech before Bo burst from his chest like a Xenomorph. Carr does nothing. Multiple former players trash Rodriguez in public. Carr does nothing. The 2009 golf outing that even guys like Chris Balas* come back from disgusted at, naming specific names of players (Marlin Jackson, Dhani Jones) who embarrassed themselves with their behavior. Is Carr even at it? It's worse if he is.

So, like, whatever. Carr doesn't owe anyone anything except the 400k a year he was pulling down as associate AD. But he's no program patriarch. He's just a guy who used to coach here. His loyalty is to an incredibly specific version of Michigan only. The difference between the Bo guys and the Carr guys is obvious. Bo guys organize a weird counterproductive rally for RR; Carr guys go on MNF and state they're from "Lloyd Carr's Michigan" or storm the AD's office to demand RR's firing after every loss**. There are exceptions, obviously. The trend is clear.

I have no sympathy for arguments the guy is being painted unfairly when he was offered the opportunity to tell his side a dozen times. If history is written by the losers here it's because the winners don't care what the public thinks. They can't be surprised when the public thinks they're not Bo.

Carr did a lot of things for the program but his legacy is significantly tarnished by the pit it found itself in immediately after his departure. It was his lack of a coaching tree, lack of serious coordinators, and lack of tolerance for Les Miles that caused Michigan to hire Rodriguez in the first place. It was his lack of a roster—seven scholarship OL!—and lack of support that provided Rodriguez with two strikes before he even coached a game. We can argue about how much is Carr's fault and how much is Rodriguez's, but figuring out the latter is pointless since RR is gone and everyone hates him. The former is "far too much."

*[By this I mean guys who work for publications for whom access is lifeblood. They're naturally more circumspect. The reaction on premium sites to this golf outing was unprecedented, with people moved to call actual former players out by name after years of dark mutterings.]

**[Not in the book; something I got from a good source.]

Rich Rodriguez

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via AnnArbor.com

If you left a goat in the locker room after a Michigan loss and then locked Rodriguez in it for five minutes, you would return to find the walls smeared with blood and feta. There would be no trace of the goat.

Rich Rodriguez was obviously not a stoic guy. His sideline tantrums proved that. The extent of his leg-gashing, table-throwing, goat-cheese-making post-loss hissies is probably the thing that Rodriguez is pissed about. They don't make him look like a stable dude. Neither does his descent into J. Edgar Hoover-esque paranoia, no matter how intent the university was on making that paranoia seems reasonable.

By the time I got through it, my reaction to Rodriguez's portrayal was different than that of the media reviewing the book. It doesn't paint Rodriguez as a guy I would want in charge of my football program. I can deal with one goat-annihilating postgame tantrum a year. Rodriguez seemed to have one after every loss.

So why do most neutral accounts play up the Rodriguez sympathy angle? They do not take the truth that the local media is dominated by agenda-laden twits to be self-evident. When Mike Rosenberg—who comes off as a real winner—bombed Rodriguez with a bunch of half-truths and misrepresentations I bombed back, stating that it was obvious the buyout kerfuffle was university-directed. Surprise: it was university-directed as they tried to get out of their 2.5 million dollar hook. Similarly, Free Press Jihad is re-exposed as a bunch of half-truths at best run by a couple of guys who "had countable hours in there at some point" but had it edited out, no doubt because that's not at all important in a discussion about whether Michigan was more than doubling their allotted time on Sundays.

If you go into the book knowing Rosenberg and Snyder published an embarrassing hack-job and that a large part of the media firestorm surrounding Rodriguez was a combination of University incompetence and the tiny lizard brains of certain folk in the local media*, the main takeaway from the book in re: RR is the sheer height of the plumes his emotional volcano shoots up. I mean, Bacon spends pages and pages on Rodriguez playing up the traditions of Michigan to his players. That's an obvious reaction to the Michigan Man business. I assumed Rodriguez was not an idiot when it came to firing up his troops, I guess, and that stuff shot by me. Beating a bleating ungulate against the wall of the Notre Dame locker room until it bursts into a kaleidoscope of viscera… that stays with you.

I feel bad for the guy. I'm glad he's gone.

*[The rest a combo of Rodriguez never winning any games and his remarkable ability to stick his leg into the press conference bear trap.]

Bill Martin

University of Michigan Athletic Director Bill Martin watches over Thursday afternoon, August 20th's football practice at the Michigan practice facility outside of Schembechler Hall.<br />
Lon Horwedel | Ann Arbor.com<br />

Good Lord, man. I find it hard to believe that a guy who dragged Michigan kicking and screaming into massive financial success and smoothly hired John Beilein (admittedly after making a questionable hire in Tommy Amaker) was really as incompetent as… uh… I believed he was after the sailboat incident. That's Yogi Berra right there but it's also true.

Here's the the story of the post-Carr coaching search from the perspective of this site:

  1. Kirk Ferentz is reached out to and either is or is not offered; if offered he may have been given an offer that was a paycut. Ferentz fades but it seems like there was truth to the rumors.
  2. Flailing. Miles heavily discussed. ESPN reports Michigan contacts him after Ferentz falls through. They agree to wait until the SEC championship game is over. LSU boards buzz that Les has told his team he's out. I would be "surprised if it was not" Miles.
  3. Infamous ESPN report.
  4. Sailboat. "Have a great day." Sailboat.
  5. Conclusion reached in the aftermath is that M "essentially passed on Miles."
  6. Tedford and Schiano now start getting thrown around along with odder names like Grobe and Pinkel. Also some guy named Hoke. So much Hoke.
  7. Kirk Ferentz momentarily back. Then gone.
  8. Schiano talked to, offered, accepts, changes mind, offered again, says no.
  9. Sean Payton!
  10. Miles again! Seriously!
  11. Miles out again.
  12. Jim Grobe. Jim Grobe does not get an exclamation point.
  13. KC Keeler! Lane Kiffin! Seriously!
  14. Rodriguez out of nowhere.
  15. Sigh… Peanut Butter Jelly Time.

It seemed like a clown show, and behind the scenes… clown show. Martin wants Dungy, has no idea if Dungy—who is a broadcaster and can be contacted by anyone at any time for any reason—will take the job. Wants Ferentz, has no idea that the president of the university will stab him if he hires Ferentz. Wants Miles, has no idea that Lloyd Carr will stab him if he hires Miles. Somehow misses on Schiano, then has Rodriguez fall into his lap and grabs him before anyone can think about it, which sets up the whole buyout fiasco the media will spin for six months. The sailboat incident is even worse since Bacon asserts one of the main problems was Martin had a new cell phone and didn't know how to use it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh /dies

Martin himself drops out of the story shortly thereafter, which is another indictment of the guy because what enters is a vast institutional incompetence that starts the Rodriguez media cockroach katamari rolling. Everything from the buyout to the Dorsey situation is mishandled not only by Rodriguez (sometimes not even by Rodriguez, as with the buyout) but by the people who should be telling him what is and is not possible. When Rodriguez went to bat for Dorsey with a guy in admissions the guy in admissions should have looked at the guy's transcript before saying yes, and then when he did look at the transcript he should have said no.

Instead we actually sign the guy—opening us up to the most cynical and loathsome of all the lizard-brain media attacks—only to find out he is nowhere near eligible. And don't get me started on the CARA forms, which was a special brand of idiocy all on its own. Martin did a lot of big picture stuff very well, but he was totally unprepared to fix a department that had started downhill long before he arrived.

For all the crap I give Brandon about his failure on big picture stuff, he cleaned out the deadwood with alacrity.

TOMORROW: Players, reporters, me/us(!?).

Comments

El Jeffe

October 26th, 2011 at 3:20 PM ^

Maybe because Bo was awesome and provided a standard against which his successors should be judged?

Maybe because Bo talked about sticking with your team even if they are losing, and by inference, not allowing the coach of your team to twist in the wind? Like, the opposite of what Lloyd did?

On that note, your signature: ironic or unironic?

El Jeffe

October 26th, 2011 at 3:29 PM ^

Yeah that first one was just kind of a joke. I mostly wanted to crap on you for having a signature that expressed everything I loved about Bo and for which I am criticizing Lloyd.

You seem like a smart guy, so that's why I asked whether it was there ironically or not.

dcmaizeandblue

October 26th, 2011 at 3:20 PM ^

Don't use that one criticism to absolve Carr completely that's not the main problem for me. Fine he helped out his kids but what did he do after that?  It was made absolutley clear that Bo kept everything in check and kept drama in house. With him gone how can we not expect Lloyd to fulfill that role even a little bit?  

He was still in the department but by all accounts did zero to defend or allay some of the crap our program took.  His silence is more damning than anything and it was very heart breaking to read about.  I was always a defender of Carr because of how he conducted himself but if even half of this stuff is true that image is ruined.  It all seems so petty now.

bringthewood

October 26th, 2011 at 5:21 PM ^

I feel exactly the same way.  I was a Carr supporter when he was getting criticism but I can't support him now.  Even if he did not love Rich he owed his ex-players and the University to strongly publically support RR, for everyones sake.  He comes off as petty and unable to rise above it.  I'm older and sometimes you have to do shit you don't like because it's the right thing to do.  WTF happened to Carr's moral compass?

PurpleStuff

October 26th, 2011 at 3:21 PM ^

Rodriguez got treated like shit by tons of people working for and associated with the University of Michigan, yet he told every one of his former players not to transfer (after getting fired before the team he built could see the field, not leaving of his own accord).  He didn't tell Denard Robinson he should go play in an offense that supposedly fits his skill set a little better.  He didn't tell recruits to go to another school (like former Carr players did without their former coach saying word one about it).

I'm sorry, but if Rodriguez cares about the Michigan football program more than Lloyd Carr does, then yes that is an indictment of Carr, no matter how you much you want to pretend telling people to jump ship was done out of love.  Only caring about "Lloyd Carr's University of Michigan" isn't a positive character trait no matter who does it, in my view.

PurpleStuff

October 26th, 2011 at 3:43 PM ^

So you're saying that because Rodriguez told his guys (Denard especially) to stay that he doesn't care about them?  And that he masturbates to our school's trademarked logo?

I thought I had heard all the criticisms possible of the guy, but this one fucking takes the cake.  Every time Denard throws an incomplete pass I'll remember to note that it is all Rich Rodriguez's fault for fucking him over and telling him to stay at Michigan.

RagingBean

October 26th, 2011 at 5:09 PM ^

How is it unhealthy idolatry, which seems to be what you are implying, to tell your players that they should not revolt so that the team you HELPED BUILD does not fall apart!? And what about the players left behind? What about all those kids who didn't have the talent to go anywhere, or were not interested in leaving their school (and thus their adopted home and family of friends) because a new sheriff was in town? Isn't Carr's action here to those players much more reprehensible than any nobility you are trying to find in him could hope to undo?

PeterKlima

October 26th, 2011 at 3:26 PM ^

Yes, (assuming this is all true) Carr screwed up.  He was not supposed to decide in his own (biased) opinion is best for young kids.  Maybe he was wrong about whether RR's team was good for those kids, especially since RR had not shown how he was going to implement his system at UM at that point.

He was a university employee as coach and later as assistant A.D.  He was paid a great deal of money and gained much fame for serving the University of Michigan.

He was not paid to be a neutral "guidance counselor" to a group of kids.

Are you saying it is "no problem" that Carr let his personal opinion override his job duties?

Really?

(BTW - In your world of coaches being "more loyal" to kids than to their jobs, would Hoke be justified in letting down his recruits at SDSU to come to Michigan?  Was that in the best interests of those kids he coached or do you think he just didn't know the type of love Lloyd had for players?)

I don't think that it was "HE IS NOT BO!"

I think it was that he thought his own opinions were more important than the well-being of the Unviersity's football program.  He put himself above his role in the program.  No only would Bo not do that, but no one should do that.

In fact, RichRod did not do that for Denard and co. when he left and Hoke came in "bad mouthing basketball on grass."  He did not interfer or undermine the new regime.

 

In this sense the point is "LLOYD IS NOT EVEN AS LOYAL TO UM AS RICH ROD...LET ALONE BO!!"

El Jeffe

October 26th, 2011 at 3:33 PM ^

You know, you're starting to convince me. If Lloyd had told his players to stick around to play football for the winningest program in CFB history and to get an education from a world-class university and to demonstrate that they believed in something more than simply getting what was best for them at that precise moment in their lives, why that would have been tantamount to child abuse!

Brodie

October 26th, 2011 at 3:36 PM ^

"Hey Adrian, look you're probably only going to catch 20 passes next year but at least you'll still be at Michigan! That'll help with the sting when your dreams of playing pro football are crushed. Look, I'm going to be honest... all that stuff I told you when I recruited you about doing right by you was bullshit and all I care about is Michigan winning as many games as possible. To me, you're nothing more than a merc brought in for 4 years to achieve that goal."

THAT'S OUR MAN!

bronxblue

October 26th, 2011 at 4:35 PM ^

Hey, we do it all the time in the legal system.  You have a chance to defend yourself; if you don't, you can't complain about people inferring what they will from your silence.  That's human nature.  Carr has been given numerous opportunities to voice his opinion, and he hasn't; in fact, he's been combative with even the notion.  So yeah, as a fan and alum, I'm allowed to infer that his silence says something about his feelings about RR, especially given his support of other coaches and players. 

Butterfield

October 26th, 2011 at 5:33 PM ^

I can make the argument that Lloyd has purposefully not addressed the rumors because doing so wouldn't serve any purpose but to further divide the program.  Can you imagine if he did hold a press conference to discredit Bacon?  We're talking front page headlines, and not the kinds of headlines that are positive for Michigan's image.  And then months of ensuing he said/she said controversy.  I view the silence as Lloyd taking a bullet to prevent any further deterioration of Michigan. 

PeterKlima

October 26th, 2011 at 4:48 PM ^

And, it is black letter law that an adverse inference can be drawn from that.

Black letter law is basic and well-established.

And, it is the law because it is just:

"In a civil case, adverse inferences may be drawn against a party who asserts the Fifth Amendment and remains silent  Baxter v. Palmigiano, 425 U.S. 308, 318 (1976) (“the Fifth Amendment does not forbid adverse inferences against parties to civil actions when they refuse to testify in response to probative evidence offered against them”); see Arminius Schleifmittel GMBH v. Design Indus., Inc., 2007 WL 534573 (M.D.N.C. Feb. 15, 2007) (granting injunction against defendant who asserted Fifth Amendment privilege because by asserting the privilege he rendered plaintiff’s factual presentation unrebutted). Because Bostic has not rebutted Plaintiff’s evidence, Plaintiff has established a likelihood of success on the merits of its claims for misappropriation of trade secrets and breach of his confidentiality agreement."  

Needs

October 26th, 2011 at 7:16 PM ^

That would be great if this were a civil suit. But it's not, so we can't draw that inference. There are lots of reasons that Lloyd might not talk, from not liking Bacon, to being sick of everything to do with this mess, to having agreed with Brandon that addressing the book would only damage the program, to a general indifference about his reputation.

PeterKlima

October 27th, 2011 at 12:08 PM ^

...but the point is we are all sitting in a hypothetical jury trying to determine if Lloyd was to blame or not.

So, we can draw the inferences.

There are lots of reasons for a defendant not to talk as well.  Just as many as Lloyd have.  But society (through law) says it is acceptable to draw negative inferences from that refusal to speak.



So, you can chose not to draw negative inferences if you want, but I do not thinkg most people are as naive as you.

03 Blue 07

October 26th, 2011 at 8:12 PM ^

I agree with you. What my take was from the book is that first and foremost in LC's mind was making sure Les Miles didn't coach Michigan, and he saw Rich Rodriguez as a guy that could make that happen, and likely the only relevant candidate who was as much of a hot name as Miles. He knew Ferentz wasn't getting the job (MSC said no way...she was up close and personal with a lot of the sketchy shit that went down at Iowa that the national media doesn't mention much because, well, it's Iowa), and Schiano turned them down. At that point, he was staring down the barrell of Les Miles. So he made a move to get RR. It doesn't mean he loved RR; it just means he had less negative feelings about RR than he did Les Miles.

lexus larry

October 27th, 2011 at 9:08 AM ^

This is an interesting angle.

Another thing that leaps out against BM is the whole "This is Michigan" meme, where "every coach in America would give his left nut to come here."  When the Schiano rejection came, that was a massive confirmation that maybe Michigan wasn't quite the destination (final/best place to coach).  It was pretty stunning to see that the Rutgers coach didn't think Michigan wasn't the end all/be all.

PeterKlima

October 26th, 2011 at 4:04 PM ^

You can obviously care about the University of Michigan's football program without it being to the detriment of the kids.

Lloyd had little to no idea what the program would look like when Rich Rod and company came in.  Instead he guessed about what he thought would happen (which he then may have helped further through his actions).

Regardless, they did not need Lloyd to save them.  They make their own decisions and could talk to RR about their place in the new regime.

Lloyd wouldn't have "fucked anybody over" by just standing behind the new guy.

Tell me buddy, how would Lloyd being quiet and letting Rich Rod deal with it, have "fucked anyone over"?

Seriously, THINK then post.

 

PeterKlima

October 26th, 2011 at 4:42 PM ^

...didn't threaten to kill each of the players?

How do we know that Lloyd did not try to talk some players out of transferring?

How do we know Rich Rod didn't sleep with Lloyd's wife the night before the meeting?

 

We don't have the complete story.  Oh Lord.

 

name redacted

October 26th, 2011 at 3:37 PM ^

We are all, especially in sports, judged by a standard set by those who came before us. 

Bo created a standard here for how a coach should act and who a coach should be.  Put Lloyd Carr somewhere that didn't have a Bo standard, and few would question is greatness or commitment to the program.  Unfortunately for him, he exists at a place that has an incredibly high standard for what a coach, or Michigan Man, should be.  Lloyd Carr doesn't match up to Bo, and so he will be judged accordingly.

Is if fare?  Maybe not.  I dunno.  But its reality.  Its why we say He's not Bo.  Bo set a standard, showed us all how a Michigan Man (yes I dispise the phrase too) must act.

Look at Kobe.  He is/was as close to perfection as you could find on a basketball court, yet he was always not-quite-Jordan.  Jordan set the standard for a basketball player's ability, competitiveness, marketability, drive...Kobe was not quite Jordan.  If Kobe existed in a Jordanless world, well, he would be Jordan.

 

name redacted

October 26th, 2011 at 4:03 PM ^

First, I have for years admired Lloyd Carr.

But to say he can't be something he isn't is ridiculous. I am reserved person, I don't like to be in the spot light, I would never want to be in front of the microphones for an interview.

But mess with my family, and I don't care what I am "comfortable" with or not, I am going to war.

If you're saying Carr can't be a certain type of person, its not the type of person who is comfortable out in the media. Its the type person who lacks the integrity to stick up for his family.

(and before someone wigs out on me, I am not saying Lloyd lacks integrity.  I am saying if you fully believe a person is just a certain way and they can't change, then u must believe that certain type that Lloyd is lacks the integrity to stand up for family when they are attacked.  He didn't, it wasn't because he isn't that type of person, it was a conscious calculated move on his part, what for I don't know)

CompleteLunacy

October 26th, 2011 at 5:39 PM ^

If Carr doesn't want to speak, fine. He is entitled to silence. But as others have rightly pointed out, his silence can be used adversely against him, and it is. To excuse him because he doesn't like the media? Come on. His dislike didn't mean he was allowed to skip coach pressers...and likewise here, just because he isn't coach anymore doesn't mean he is suddenly free of any and all blame, and that he doesn't need to say anything to anyone.

And besides, he never had to talk to the media as a whole. All he needed to do was ONE interview, with ONE trusted journalist (like...Bacon, perhaps?!?!?), and we would have his side properly told. He didn't even do that. And that's fine. But I hope he realizes that he can only blame himself for how negative he looks throughout this book's retelling of events from the last year. HE has every right to defend himself from the backlash here. And so far, he hasn't.

I still love Lloyd, I still believe he's a great man and respect everything he did for Michigan. But even the best men can be really wrong sometimes. 

StephenRKass

October 26th, 2011 at 3:47 PM ^

There are a lot of things I liked about Carr more than Bo. But without being Bo, I strongly believe that Carr could have supported RR behind the scenes. Especially since Carr brought RR to Michigan, I think he owed it to RR to help him out more.

I will say, regarding RR, that I have heard he was a hotheaded foul mouthed jerk, which I don't care for. I've been around coaches like that. But, if we didn't want a coach like that, RR should never have been offered in the first place.