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Three And Out Takes: Carr, Rodriguez, Martin

By Brian — October 26th, 2011 at 2:14 PM — 466 comments
Filed under:
  • bill martin
  • coaching fiasco 2007
  • lloyd carr
  • lloyd carr illuminati
  • rich rodriguez
  • three and out

imageSo. It's out.

I'm impressed with the large numbers of people who seem to have already blazed their way through Three and Out. It took me a while. I stopped for a few days after "Honeymoon from Hell" because it was too depressing; every chapter featuring a game I knew they'd lose spectacularly required a little bit of willpower to start.

But I'm done and a large number of you are done. It is time to talk the turkey.

We've got this document. What does it say about major players in the saga? I was planning one part here but this got long, so today we'll cover Carr, Rodriguez, and Bill Martin, with various players with less prominent roles in the story covered in a post tomorrow.

Lloyd Carr

55313590F[1]

It says a few things about Lloyd Carr that are not nice, and implies more. Bacon's said he left a lot of things out that he could not get multiple sources on, which is both his responsibility as an actual journalist and horribly frustrating.

The main strikes:

  1. Informing his former players he would sign any transfer papers they wanted at his meeting with them after their bowl game, a marked contrast from the Bo-Bump transition.
  2. Telling Mallett he "needed to leave".
  3. Having zero control over his former players, or—worse—tacitly endorsing their behavior by not jumping down their throats.
  4. Offering something short of the fiery defense Bo would have launched once the program started taking fire.

That's aside from the state of the roster when Rodriguez took over, which wasn't specifically directed at the new man.

Those seem like major strikes. Screw it: those are major strikes, particularly #3. I find it inconceivable that Eric Mayes would made it thirty seconds into the embarrassing "we own this program" speech before Bo burst from his chest like a Xenomorph. Carr does nothing. Multiple former players trash Rodriguez in public. Carr does nothing. The 2009 golf outing that even guys like Chris Balas* come back from disgusted at, naming specific names of players (Marlin Jackson, Dhani Jones) who embarrassed themselves with their behavior. Is Carr even at it? It's worse if he is.

So, like, whatever. Carr doesn't owe anyone anything except the 400k a year he was pulling down as associate AD. But he's no program patriarch. He's just a guy who used to coach here. His loyalty is to an incredibly specific version of Michigan only. The difference between the Bo guys and the Carr guys is obvious. Bo guys organize a weird counterproductive rally for RR; Carr guys go on MNF and state they're from "Lloyd Carr's Michigan" or storm the AD's office to demand RR's firing after every loss**. There are exceptions, obviously. The trend is clear.

I have no sympathy for arguments the guy is being painted unfairly when he was offered the opportunity to tell his side a dozen times. If history is written by the losers here it's because the winners don't care what the public thinks. They can't be surprised when the public thinks they're not Bo.

Carr did a lot of things for the program but his legacy is significantly tarnished by the pit it found itself in immediately after his departure. It was his lack of a coaching tree, lack of serious coordinators, and lack of tolerance for Les Miles that caused Michigan to hire Rodriguez in the first place. It was his lack of a roster—seven scholarship OL!—and lack of support that provided Rodriguez with two strikes before he even coached a game. We can argue about how much is Carr's fault and how much is Rodriguez's, but figuring out the latter is pointless since RR is gone and everyone hates him. The former is "far too much."

*[By this I mean guys who work for publications for whom access is lifeblood. They're naturally more circumspect. The reaction on premium sites to this golf outing was unprecedented, with people moved to call actual former players out by name after years of dark mutterings.]

**[Not in the book; something I got from a good source.]

Rich Rodriguez

123110_SPT_Gator Bowl_MRM

via AnnArbor.com

If you left a goat in the locker room after a Michigan loss and then locked Rodriguez in it for five minutes, you would return to find the walls smeared with blood and feta. There would be no trace of the goat.

Rich Rodriguez was obviously not a stoic guy. His sideline tantrums proved that. The extent of his leg-gashing, table-throwing, goat-cheese-making post-loss hissies is probably the thing that Rodriguez is pissed about. They don't make him look like a stable dude. Neither does his descent into J. Edgar Hoover-esque paranoia, no matter how intent the university was on making that paranoia seems reasonable.

By the time I got through it, my reaction to Rodriguez's portrayal was different than that of the media reviewing the book. It doesn't paint Rodriguez as a guy I would want in charge of my football program. I can deal with one goat-annihilating postgame tantrum a year. Rodriguez seemed to have one after every loss.

So why do most neutral accounts play up the Rodriguez sympathy angle? They do not take the truth that the local media is dominated by agenda-laden twits to be self-evident. When Mike Rosenberg—who comes off as a real winner—bombed Rodriguez with a bunch of half-truths and misrepresentations I bombed back, stating that it was obvious the buyout kerfuffle was university-directed. Surprise: it was university-directed as they tried to get out of their 2.5 million dollar hook. Similarly, Free Press Jihad is re-exposed as a bunch of half-truths at best run by a couple of guys who "had countable hours in there at some point" but had it edited out, no doubt because that's not at all important in a discussion about whether Michigan was more than doubling their allotted time on Sundays.

If you go into the book knowing Rosenberg and Snyder published an embarrassing hack-job and that a large part of the media firestorm surrounding Rodriguez was a combination of University incompetence and the tiny lizard brains of certain folk in the local media*, the main takeaway from the book in re: RR is the sheer height of the plumes his emotional volcano shoots up. I mean, Bacon spends pages and pages on Rodriguez playing up the traditions of Michigan to his players. That's an obvious reaction to the Michigan Man business. I assumed Rodriguez was not an idiot when it came to firing up his troops, I guess, and that stuff shot by me. Beating a bleating ungulate against the wall of the Notre Dame locker room until it bursts into a kaleidoscope of viscera… that stays with you.

I feel bad for the guy. I'm glad he's gone.

*[The rest a combo of Rodriguez never winning any games and his remarkable ability to stick his leg into the press conference bear trap.]

Bill Martin

University of Michigan Athletic Director Bill Martin watches over Thursday afternoon, August 20th's football practice at the Michigan practice facility outside of Schembechler Hall. 
Lon Horwedel | Ann Arbor.com

Good Lord, man. I find it hard to believe that a guy who dragged Michigan kicking and screaming into massive financial success and smoothly hired John Beilein (admittedly after making a questionable hire in Tommy Amaker) was really as incompetent as… uh… I believed he was after the sailboat incident. That's Yogi Berra right there but it's also true.

Here's the the story of the post-Carr coaching search from the perspective of this site:

  1. Kirk Ferentz is reached out to and either is or is not offered; if offered he may have been given an offer that was a paycut. Ferentz fades but it seems like there was truth to the rumors.
  2. Flailing. Miles heavily discussed. ESPN reports Michigan contacts him after Ferentz falls through. They agree to wait until the SEC championship game is over. LSU boards buzz that Les has told his team he's out. I would be "surprised if it was not" Miles.
  3. Infamous ESPN report.
  4. Sailboat. "Have a great day." Sailboat.
  5. Conclusion reached in the aftermath is that M "essentially passed on Miles."
  6. Tedford and Schiano now start getting thrown around along with odder names like Grobe and Pinkel. Also some guy named Hoke. So much Hoke.
  7. Kirk Ferentz momentarily back. Then gone.
  8. Schiano talked to, offered, accepts, changes mind, offered again, says no.
  9. Sean Payton!
  10. Miles again! Seriously!
  11. Miles out again.
  12. Jim Grobe. Jim Grobe does not get an exclamation point.
  13. KC Keeler! Lane Kiffin! Seriously!
  14. Rodriguez out of nowhere.
  15. Sigh… Peanut Butter Jelly Time.

It seemed like a clown show, and behind the scenes… clown show. Martin wants Dungy, has no idea if Dungy—who is a broadcaster and can be contacted by anyone at any time for any reason—will take the job. Wants Ferentz, has no idea that the president of the university will stab him if he hires Ferentz. Wants Miles, has no idea that Lloyd Carr will stab him if he hires Miles. Somehow misses on Schiano, then has Rodriguez fall into his lap and grabs him before anyone can think about it, which sets up the whole buyout fiasco the media will spin for six months. The sailboat incident is even worse since Bacon asserts one of the main problems was Martin had a new cell phone and didn't know how to use it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh /dies

Martin himself drops out of the story shortly thereafter, which is another indictment of the guy because what enters is a vast institutional incompetence that starts the Rodriguez media cockroach katamari rolling. Everything from the buyout to the Dorsey situation is mishandled not only by Rodriguez (sometimes not even by Rodriguez, as with the buyout) but by the people who should be telling him what is and is not possible. When Rodriguez went to bat for Dorsey with a guy in admissions the guy in admissions should have looked at the guy's transcript before saying yes, and then when he did look at the transcript he should have said no.

Instead we actually sign the guy—opening us up to the most cynical and loathsome of all the lizard-brain media attacks—only to find out he is nowhere near eligible. And don't get me started on the CARA forms, which was a special brand of idiocy all on its own. Martin did a lot of big picture stuff very well, but he was totally unprepared to fix a department that had started downhill long before he arrived.

For all the crap I give Brandon about his failure on big picture stuff, he cleaned out the deadwood with alacrity.

TOMORROW: Players, reporters, me/us(!?).

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:33 PM | Spoiler alert (Score:5 Funny)
Genzilla
Genzilla's picture
Joined: 01/26/2009
MGoPoints: 599

Come on man, I was just about to watch Titanic.  Way to ruin the ending.

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October 26th, 2011 at 4:14 PM | Saving Private Ryan SPOILER ALERT (Score:3 Normal)
saveferris
saveferris's picture
Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 3072

Private Ryan is saved.  Dudes tasked to save him pretty much all die.

/dick

 

"...what do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?"

"Fix the cigarette lighter."

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October 27th, 2011 at 10:23 AM | Watch the Director's cut (Score:1)
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 38747

With the alternative ending...

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:32 PM | I read the book yesterday (Score:1)
yeahrice
Joined: 09/09/2011
MGoPoints: 271

I read the book yesterday during work after lunch. I finished reading it this morning. WOW. As Brian said briefly here and more specifically a couple weeks ago, no one that is in this book will be happy. I will say though, Denard is the effing man.

Biochemistry

Class of 2010.

 

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:34 PM | Not having read the book, but (Score:5 Normal)
enlightenedbum
Joined: 06/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1864

Not having read the book, but wasn't it widely understood at the time that Carr HATED Mallett by the end of that season and wanted him to transfer even when he was the only healthy scholarship QB on the roster?  I feel like I remember reading that on this very site.  And I definitely remember hearing from friends who lived in West Quad that year that he was by all accounts a tremendous asshole.

So three damning stirkes instead of four, in my mind.

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:46 PM | Fixed for ya! (Score:1 Normal)
lexus larry
lexus larry's picture
Joined: 01/22/2009
MGoPoints: 1218

"...transfer even when he was the only QB on the roster? "

/s

In all seriousness, this is the most devastating part of the whole LC exit fiasco...not only did he offer to sign for anyone who wanted to leave, but sent a clear and potent message to the entire team that it was OK to quit on the incoming coach (whether by transferring, or by inaction, etc).

AND, then there were those who would have everyone believe that RR chased off Mallett.  The two-time quitting Mallett.  The Jeff George of his generation!

Larry

I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:50 PM | I meant in the middle of the (Score:2)
enlightenedbum
Joined: 06/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1864

I meant in the middle of the season, like before the Wisconsin game or something.  I should hunt through the archives but I'm feeling lazy.

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:52 PM | It was after the Illinois (Score:2 Normal)
yeahrice
Joined: 09/09/2011
MGoPoints: 271

It was after the Illinois game. Mallett threw an INT or fumbled, dont remember which one and then turned away from Carr when he went to the sideline. Carr got in his face like you wouldn't believe and Mallett still blew him off. Mallett was gone regardless the next coach

Biochemistry

Class of 2010.

 

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:11 PM | Good times! /s (Score:1)
lexus larry
lexus larry's picture
Joined: 01/22/2009
MGoPoints: 1218

Yeah, I remember all that...just riffin' on the situation of January 2008, where the QB "depth chart" was Mallett, Threet and Sheridan, and maybe some other guy.  Forcier was gone by then, Henne was working out to be drafted.

Larry

I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV

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October 26th, 2011 at 8:47 PM | Wasn't there 1 of the Weinke (Score:1)
MileHighWolverine
Joined: 09/02/2008
MGoPoints: 1258

Wasn't there 1 of the Weinke kids on our roster....not that it would have helped much but why did he transfer?

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October 26th, 2011 at 9:06 PM | Weinke (Score:2)
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 4159

I think he decommitted after RichRod got the job. Probably a good choice. He would have been Threat 2.0.

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:28 PM | I've heard from someone in (Score:3 Normal)
yoopergoblue
yoopergoblue's picture
Joined: 02/11/2010
MGoPoints: 1976

I've heard from someone in the know that most of what you said is BS.  RR supposedly had Lloyd come in during Spring practice '08 and talk to the team (mostly the upperclassmen) and convince them to give the staff a try because they owed it to the University of Michigan.  It took them a while to get used to Barwis and they didn't like it at first.  Also, I know Bacon didn't have access until August of '08.  Lloyd may have done alot of other things behind the scenes that are mentioned or not mentioned in the book, but I don't think he was as malicious as what is portrayed in the book with the transferring issue.

"They will meet a dastardly fate here for that! There isn't a Michigan Man who wouldn't like go out and scalp those Buckeyes right now."

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October 26th, 2011 at 4:29 PM | You know how you stop misinformation? (Score:2 Normal)
Wolv2004
Wolv2004's picture
Joined: 08/25/2008
MGoPoints: 274

Tell your side of the story.  Lloyd had plenty of opportunity to do so, but never did.  

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October 26th, 2011 at 5:05 PM | Lloyd doesn't owe it to (Score:4 Normal)
Butterfield
Butterfield's picture
Joined: 01/15/2011
MGoPoints: 1940

Lloyd doesn't owe it to anyone to tell his side of the story.  He's a very introspective, calculating, and private man who never cared whether what the media said was true or not.  For all the people who assumed his silence during the RR years was because he didn't support RR, he hasn't exactly been on a barnstorming tour to support his longtime ex-assistant Hoke.  Lloyd is who he is, he's a guy who prefers to stay above the fray - I always admired that about him. 

The swag is back. 

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October 26th, 2011 at 6:21 PM | If that is the case then he (Score:4 Normal)
dcmaizeandblue
Joined: 04/01/2010
MGoPoints: 671

If that is the case then he has no business being an associate AD.  I would have preferred him to just retire to South Carolina or something but staying Ann Arbor means he needed to be at least somewhat public.  It would not have taken much to lend a little confidence during this transition.  I'm not saying we wouldn't be in the same spot we are now but his silence, public or private, did not help.

Do we have to assume all the people Bacon talked to are lying just because Carr is remaining silent?

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October 27th, 2011 at 8:15 AM | Carr is from Riverview, Michigan (Score:2 Normal)
Rasmus
Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 1006

I don't know why you think he would "move to South Carolina or something" upon retirement.

I agree that Carr should have done more to stop the infighting (whether he could have, I don't know), precisely because he was being paid to do so.

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October 27th, 2011 at 4:15 PM | Sorry I was referencing the (Score:2)
dcmaizeandblue
Joined: 04/01/2010
MGoPoints: 671

Sorry I was referencing the fact that I know he had a house in Hilton Head, South Carolina at one point and spent a fair amount of time down there.

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October 26th, 2011 at 4:39 PM | It wasn't portrayed as "malicious." (Score:2 Normal)
wolverine1987
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Bacon presents it as damaging to RR that LC offerred the transfers, but says that LC's motivation was likely sympathy. He doesn;t excuse that and criticizes it, but that's not the same as saying it was malicious.

"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite." 

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:06 PM | If Carr actually had power, (Score:3 Normal)
enlightenedbum
Joined: 06/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1864

If Carr actually had power, all this crap with the uniforms and music and what not that us fuddy duddies have been complaining about wouldn't happen.  The thing I liked best about old Lloyd (as opposed to young Lloyd who was genuinely awesome but left us with Chris Perry or so) was his stance on the rampant monetization of college football.  And how when they added the 12th game for pure profit reasons he started supporting a playoff.

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:29 PM | That is interesting (Score:3 Normal)
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 2782

Young Lloyd and old Lloyd.  That did seem to happen overnight.  It seemed like he went from the smartest guy in the room who also had charm and wit to a guy that would call your dog ugly if you asked him for an autograph.  The "that's a stupid question" response during 2003 Ohio State is a perfect example.  That was just an unnecessary alienating response.  The 1997 Lloyd does not answer the question like that.  Hell, the Lloyd smiling ear to ear at the end of the 2003 Minnesota game doesn't even answer the question like that.

Something along with the line changed with him.  I remember thinking that the only person who wasn't enjoying 2006 was Lloyd Carr.

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:44 PM | I tend to put it slightly (Score:3 Normal)
enlightenedbum
Joined: 06/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1864

I tend to put it slightly later, at least after the Perry/Braylon doghouse extractions.  I think old Lloyd never lets those guys off the bench (see Pierre Woods for example), much less convinces Perry not to transfer.  I think "that's a stupid question" might be exactly when it became apparent, even though I *loved* that (as I said, old Lloyd's unwillingness to deal with bullshit is my favorite quality of his, other than his Mott's fundraising and ability to instill that in others).

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:51 PM | thats a little surprising to me (Score:1)
J. Lichty
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given that Lloyd has a crush on Maureen Dowd, and Brandon has a crush on Ann Coulter. 

our package is our package, and it’s pretty big. - Greg Mattison, Bowl Practice Presser Tr. 12-13-11.

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October 26th, 2011 at 4:41 PM | Ha, Ha. Purely based on looks, (Score:2 Normal)
wolverine1987
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I'm with Brandon.

"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite." 

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October 26th, 2011 at 5:49 PM | Ann Coulter (Score:4 Normal)
Coach Schiano
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looks like a dude, and has the voice to match.

 

I am not really Coach Schiano. -Coach Schiano on Mgoblog

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October 27th, 2011 at 7:56 AM | Thank you.  Absolutely (Score:3 Insightful)
STW P. Brabbs
Joined: 08/27/2008
MGoPoints: 2409

Thank you.  Absolutely regardless of political opinions, I cannot fathom how people think Ann Coulter is attractive.  The only way it can be explained is that they have poor vision, and the see the basic shape of a thin, tan, blond person, so they assume she's hot.   Please believe me -  I am not an internet tough guy that acts like women who are actually pretty attractive but have some flaws are uggos ... and I can honestly say that if I woke up in the morning next to Ann Coulter I would a) get the fuck out of there as fast as possible and b) make sure I never experienced the same combination of drinking and poor lighting that led to that fiasco ever again.

 

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:16 PM | Its like I've Said all along (Score:0 Normal)
OverTheTop
Joined: 05/20/2011
MGoPoints: 90

Carr loved Michigan, but only his version of it. All I know is that it seems that he did a few things that he knew would undermine the program in the name of preserving his version of Michigan and it hurt.

"Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?"

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:55 PM | Indeed.  I think most of the (Score:5 Normal)
WolverineHistorian
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MGoPoints: 5123

Indeed.  I think most of the players on the team hated Mallett as well. 

A friend of mine who is on the alumni board, met him at a practice or function in 07 and she told me that Mallett was the most arrogant asshole she had ever met. 

Go Blue!  Always!

http://www.youtube.com/user/WolverineHistorian

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October 26th, 2011 at 4:00 PM | I never met Mallet (Score:4 Normal)
JeepinBen
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Joined: 01/22/2010
MGoPoints: 9529

But I remember him being extremely douchey at Skeeps his freshman year. Yes while he was only a freshman, he was at Skeeps.

/standard disclaimer about how a high percentage of the people at Skeeps are underage and/or douchey

"Over? Did you say, over? Nothing is over until we decide it is!"

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October 27th, 2011 at 2:43 AM | Everyone has Ryan Mallett (Score:2 Normal)
mejunglechop
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MGoPoints: 6419

Everyone has Ryan Mallett stories... your best is that he was douchey at Skeeps? Unimpressed, very unimpressed.

Galileo was also chastised.

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October 26th, 2011 at 5:01 PM | Best Buy / Orlando (Score:5 Normal)
TorontoBlue
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 630

Can't remember where I read this, but Carr's discussion with Mallett supposedly took place in the rear of the Orlando Best Buy store during the team's private shopping trip for the Cap One Bowl.  With other team members in earshot who overhead some of it.

GO BLUE!

All In Worldwide

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:37 PM | LC probably doesn't care - much, but (Score:1 Normal)
True Blue Grit
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he's going to need an entire firm of PR specialists to put any kind of luster back on his tarnished reputation after this book.  Maybe Bacon couldn't disclose everything, but people can certainly read between the lines. 

"You owe it to every man, woman, and child in the State of Michigan to beat the Buckeyes and silence their fans!  Now go out there and make it happen!"

- Bo Schembechler (Result: U-M 22  OSU 0)

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:40 PM | Same for me...Martin and his (Score:0 Flamebait)
JakeinVeniceFL
Joined: 11/20/2009
MGoPoints: 337

Same for me...Martin and his incredible part in this soap opera is the most frustrating.  At the executive level new leadership is handled very different from this, at least in the professions I am assocaited with.  I find incredible, usually there is a "transition time" when the old passes to the new, I realize that major college football is a little different but Lloyd WAS ON THE PAYROLL!  What were his duties if not to smooth the transition, educate and counsel the new guy and act as the Bo surrogate in bringing along the Bo/Carr faction of players and boosters?  And where was Martin...sailing?  WTF?

If an executive in my business acted this way...wow, jsut wow, where was MSC?  She should have kicked Martin and Carrs ass when all this started breaking...

Failure all around, failure to lead, failure to support, failure to communicate....failure on the field should have been expected.

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:48 PM | I don't know..It's in my (Score:1 Normal)
JakeinVeniceFL
Joined: 11/20/2009
MGoPoints: 337

I don't know..It's in my experience?  Just trying to point out the obvious...not real professional of Martin/Carr. 

Perhaps this is the way it goes...fired guy/retired guy goes out of his way to NOT help in any way the new guy?  Even when retired guy is pulling in $400+k from the same employer?  Just wierd..

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October 26th, 2011 at 8:24 PM | I Like "Real World" Examples! (Score:2 Normal)
lexus larry
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Joined: 01/22/2009
MGoPoints: 1218

An allegory I've been bouncing around to match the LC situation would be General Motors during their recent bankruptcy, and Rattner telling Rick Wagner he had to go. To do it the LC way, Wags would not only go to his executive staff and tell them to get ready for a new guy who may not keep them (typical for new managers coming in from the outside...which LC knew, as he'd negotiated that each of his coaches got an extra years salary after the 2007 season), but Wags would also go to each and every assembly plant globally, and tell those workers they could, and probably should, leave, too. (Not an ideal allegory, but I hope the point is made.) That the new managers would come in and do things differently, and why stay and see how things work out, why not bolt, and bolt soon. I'll hold the door open for you.
(Trying to link in the general premise of the movie "Gung Ho." Failing.)
The Michigan Athletic Department shouldn't be seen as being on a different (Sybil-like multiple personality) plane, a different org. It should be expected to behave like the best run organizations, everyone pulling in the same direction for the best results for everyone involved.
Tragic that in 2007 until recently, this was not the case.

Larry

I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV

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October 28th, 2011 at 9:01 AM | Not really (Score:2 Normal)
Reader71
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Joined: 08/30/2009
MGoPoints: 316

GM's outgoing CEO probably did not recruit his assembly line workers as children, sit in their home, promise their parents that he would take care of them, or build a personal relationship by working with them daily. Carr did.

I know what you mean, but still, this stuff is key.

I was initially shocked to hear that he offered to release anyone that wanted out. It seemed like a bad move for the program from a guy who professes to love it. But the more I think about it, from what I know about Carr, he's just the type of guy that would do such a thing out of some personal code of honor.

And, I get the feeling that Carr felt betrayed by the University. Maybe he was forced out? Gently nudged? Maybe Coleman and Martin suggested it before he was ready? Maybe he was pissed that they wouldn't let him pick a successor or that they totally wanted to break from the program? It's all speculation, but Lloyd just seems to have been a bit pissed.

"In war, resolution; in defeat, defiance; in victory, magnanimity." 

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:54 PM | MSC loved Lloyd. Still does. (Score:2 Normal)
yeahrice
Joined: 09/09/2011
MGoPoints: 271

MSC loved Lloyd. Still does. She would not do anything to piss him off

Biochemistry

Class of 2010.

 

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October 26th, 2011 at 4:47 PM | I might be misinterpreting (Score:2 Normal)
yeahrice
Joined: 09/09/2011
MGoPoints: 271

I might be misinterpreting you, but what part of my statement does not jibe with her actions in the search? All I said is that she would not piss Lloyd off. She and Martin did not get along. I agree that she was mad at Martin for not getting Miles. I didn't get the impression that Martin was caving to Lloyd at all. And yes. I have read the book.

Biochemistry

Class of 2010.

 

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:57 PM | I always (Score:5 Funny)
El Jeffe
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Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 6710

I always HHHHAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYTTTTEDDDDDD this defense, too. As if not liking something about your job is justification not to do it. If that were true, my job would consist of

  • Masturbation
  • Chocolate
  • More chocolate (Oh who am I kidding? More masturbation)

Yeah. Did you know that Bump Elliott is being feted this Saturday? Now that's how you treat a successor. The best you can say about Lloyd is that he did the least he could possibly do. The worst you can say is a whole lot worse than that.

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:07 PM | Dave Attell bit (Score:4 Normal)
PurpleStuff
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Joined: 04/21/2009
MGoPoints: 10412

He once said in his act that his ideal job would be "Manager of a chocolate factory run by big breasted hookers."

Only to lament, "Nah, I ain't got the schoolin' for that."

It is spelled HOKEAMANIA.  Our coach is an ass-kicking American citizen, not one of the Beatles, for Christ's sake!

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October 26th, 2011 at 4:44 PM | No beer and chips? (Score:1)
wolverine1987
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Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 2928

That's the only thing I find missing from your list.

"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite." 

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October 28th, 2011 at 9:06 AM | Hypotheticals. (Score:2 Normal)
Reader71
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Joined: 08/30/2009
MGoPoints: 316

Are you denying that Lloyd hated dealing with the media?

You'd be wrong. We have 12 years of evidence to back that up.

He hated the media. Period. Full stop.

That is not anything at all akin to a "blood oath Carr made to never once make a public statement again, no matter the circumstances, after retiring." Relax on the hyperbole.

As for if he should have ever gotten involved in major collegiate athletics, I don't know. He did OK. Won a lot of games. Won a National Championship. Is so beloved by his guys that they are officially a faction.

"In war, resolution; in defeat, defiance; in victory, magnanimity." 

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:41 PM | I agree on Carr - "He is just (Score:-1 Trolling)
snoopblue
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Joined: 11/11/2009
MGoPoints: 1878

I agree on Carr - "He is just a guy who coached here" 

Feel bad for Rich Rodriguez, but some things were his fault. He was stubborn, forced his system from day one. Knew nothing about defense and was clueless about the Big Ten and how things are different. (I'm generalizing)

Bill Martin was Bill Martin. Look at his hair, what do you expect. Dude was clueless when it came to some things. Other than the coaching thing and choking some kid at the stadium (LOL) he did an alright job. Amaker, I give him a pass because of the situation he was walking into.

The person who I would like to hear about is Mary Sue Coleman. Was she ever like, "Okay, these idiots can't do this, I'm gonna run this shit now." She looks very professional and nice, but I can totally see her being one hell of a crazy bitch when she gets pissed.

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:48 PM | Right after the violations, (Score:1)
snoopblue
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Joined: 11/11/2009
MGoPoints: 1878

Right after the violations, not a lot of people would have taken the job. In retrospect, yeah he probably wasn't  the greatest coach but in my opinion you still have to give him a pass for the first few years. Maybe Martin should have fired him SOONER.

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October 26th, 2011 at 7:56 PM | Mary Sue (Score:3 Normal)
03 Blue 07
03 Blue 07's picture
Joined: 07/01/2008
MGoPoints: 1725

With respect to Mary Sue, she did exactly what you suggest- she called Martin to the carpet for how piss-poor his handling of the search was, and she took it over from then on, or at least played a much larger role (I'm talking right after his regatta/out-of-touch weekend). For example, Miles wouldn't talk to Bill Martin after that, because he knew (from his sources, or perhaps straight from her telling his agent) that she was essentially in charge after the whole sailboat fiasco. Which is true. She reached out to Miles again after she took over the search, after the sailboat fiasco/"damn strong team" thing. That being said, it still didn't prevent Bill Martin from offering Schiano the job of his own accord during this same time, which was probably him acting on his authority as AD but it is not mentioned whether MSC was on board with that or not. Basically, he was running the search, fucked it up, she had to come in and take a hands-on role in it, and handled it at best (for Martin) jointly with Martin from then on or (at worst for Martin; hard to deduce from the book) she was running the show from then on. But yes, after the sailboat fiasco, she made sure BM knew she was not at all happy and she took a very active role.

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October 26th, 2011 at 2:52 PM | Can you even imagine the shitstorm (Score:5 Normal)
Promote RichRod
Promote RichRod's picture
Joined: 11/11/2008
MGoPoints: 997

that would have ensued if RR had invited to sign transfer papers at his final team meeting and encouraged Denard and Devin privately to leave UM for another school?

I'm trying to reserve judgment until I read the book but LC is quickly reaching Braylon levels on my Michigan hierarchy.

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:03 PM | The thing that stuck out to (Score:2 Normal)
JClay
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Joined: 09/14/2010
MGoPoints: 2090

The thing that stuck out to me about the book was: a few juicy details, but if you've been reading this site for the duration of the RR administration, you knew the majority. And, no offense to Bacon, but 3&O is only going to re-enforce whatever people's opinion already was.

If you believe the Free-Press is terrible, and wholly to blame for RichRod's troubles, you will come out still thinking that. If you aren't boycotting the paper, you'll probably note that every time Rosenberg says something, it is refuted by exactly one person; it sets up sort of the exact definition of a "he-said/she-said." Brian is spoken of as confronting Rosenberg at a press conference and depending on your viewpoint, Brian either called him to account awesomely, or comes off like a crazy person who refuses to give his name despite being asked "who are you?" repeatedly. The book is an everything-for-everyone entity that people are inevitably going to grab little pieces from to confirm their beliefs.

I wrote up about 2,000 words all term paper style with citations about this earlier in the week, but ultimately did not want to step into the ridiculous quagmire that posting it as a diary would be. If you want to blame Lloyd, great, there's lots of stuff he never responded to that'll allow you to do that. If you love Lloyd, well, he didn't respond to anything so we don't have his story.

I think ultimately, serious criticism (as in "literary criticism, or discussion," not "you suck, Bacon") needs to focus on Bacon's obvious and inherent conflict between "I really like this guy, he's letting me follow him around for three years and giving me a potentially career altering opportunity" and his obligation to be unbiased. He does a merely decent job, in my opinion. He is obviously sympathetic to the tough spot RichRod fell into in the post-Bo Michigan world. He seems to want to paint all of RichRod's media snafu's on a lack of preparation by Bill Martin to get him ready for press conferences or university edict. At the same time, he never raises the issue that the head football coach of Michigan should probably have acquired in his career some media savvy at some point. He says on the bottom of page 206 (i think) that he's never heard RichRod tell a lie or be duplicitous, then on the middle of the VERY NEXT page recounts RichRod saying something he knew to be untrue at a press conference, but argues Rich had no other option. He rightly crucifies Rodriguez for his post-game implosions and the final football bust and towards the end makes it clear he had 7 "match point" games in 2009-2010 that could have saved his job and came up 0-7. The head football coach at Michigan can not go 0-7 in pressure games. And yet, at the end, all his criticisms seemed smoothed over, whereas his criticisms of Lloyd, Martin, MSC and the Free-Press have bite. Chapters on them are ended with snarky comments. I'm not sure it's possible for even the most hardened journalist to not feel some sympathy, connection to the person they followed around for 3 years, but its obvious Bacon does. I don't know how to judge that.

So, in summation, I do feel like the book gave us some interesting behind-the-scenes details, but I have little doubt that the people on this site aren't going to have their individual opinions (whatever those opinions are going in) changed. We will all take away the details that confirms our worldview, and ignore the rest. Then again, I'm not really sure if the hardcore Michigan fan IS really the target audience. Surely little I read left me shocked. I just sort of nodded for 450 pages an went, "Mmmhmm,... that's right." To the person who doesn't visit MGoBlog and just watches the games on Saturday, well, that's the people who are going to find this book salacious.

ADDITIONAL NOTES: I loved his chapter where he broke down it costs UM almost $600,000 per student athlete over 4 years and said how ridiculous paying the players would be since virtually none other than Denard make the program anywhere near that amount. The economic reality that most athletic departments aren't pulling in cash hand over fist and that Title IX exists slaps back against the absurd populist outcry. ... The part where Devin and some teammates are discussing what SEC schools offered them on their recruiting trips and Devin lamenting not taking any official visits other than UM is hysterical. ... Tate Forcier comes off even more spoiled than we could've ever imagined. And I think even those of us who adored the kid imagined alot ... Also, I noted he claimed Glenville State played the 1993 NAIA Semifinal at Summersville High School instead of their home campus. This is inaccurate. It was at Nicholas County High School in Summersville, WV.

"Here we are at Ohio Stadium, in front of 10,000 alumni and 74,000 truck drivers." - Bob Ufer

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:04 PM | I dunno, man. My opinion of (Score:2)
El Jeffe
El Jeffe's picture
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 6710

I dunno, man. My opinion of Lloyd has been drastically altered without even reading the book. Maybe after I read it (it's on the way) it'll change back, but man...

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:19 PM | Are there DEFENDERS of the Free Press? (Score:1 Normal)
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 14295

I'm not sure I understand this paragraph:

If you believe the Free-Press is terrible, and wholly to blame for RichRod's troubles, you will come out still thinking that. If you aren't boycotting the paper, you'll probably note that every time Rosenberg says something, it is refuted by exactly one person; it sets up sort of the exact definition of a "he-said/she-said." Brian is spoken of as confronting Rosenberg at a press conference and depending on your viewpoint, Brian either called him to account awesomely, or comes off like a crazy person who refuses to give his name despite being asked "who are you?" repeatedly. The book is an everything-for-everyone entity that people are inevitably going to grab little pieces from to confirm their beliefs. 

I do believe the Free Press has been terrible, and almost wholly to blame for Rodriguez's troubles, and yes I do still think that.  I am now not sure why anybody would not think that.  Rosenberg does like to do that "Who are you?" and he did it to me in front of a roomful of about 200 alums when I questioned him and he wanted to know if he was being cross-examined.  He didn't have any good answers to my questions, and he's never had any good answers as far as I am aware.  He scarcely answers any questions.

So if there are any defenders of Rosenberg and the Freep, I'd urge them to step up and be counted.  Make the case.  Has anyone ever done that?

 

 

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October 26th, 2011 at 3:28 PM | I think there's a pretty (Score:3 Normal)
JClay
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Joined: 09/14/2010
MGoPoints: 2090

I think there's a pretty sizeable percentage of the Michigan fanbase who do not hold the Free-Press, and Rosenberg, personally accountable for 2008-2010 and "wholly to blame for Rodriguez's troubles," and aren't today, in 2011, boycotting the paper, refusing to post links from its website, and writing bizarre missives against them. In fact, I'd respectfully wager that those people make up a majority of the Michigan fanbase (albeit, not the majority on MGoBlog).

"Here we are at Ohio Stadium, in front of 10,000 alumni and 74,000 truck drivers." - Bob Ufer

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October 26th, 2011 at 6:38 PM | Sorry to say that you are right, at least in part. (Score:1 Normal)
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 14295

I do think that much of the Michigan fan base swallows what they read in the Free Press, and have never fully understood how the Free Press screwed Rodriguez.

I do think that much of the Michigan fan base has wholly swallowed this "Brady Hoke = MICHIGAN MAN" thing.

I do think that much of the Michigan fan base's mood is totally swung by the last game we played, or the last Michigan State game, or the last Ohio State game.

I do think that much of the Michigan fan base lags far behind the MGoBlog membership in terms of information, knowledge and passion for the program.

So, I really don't hold out "much of the Michigan fan base" as a measure of anything in particular.  It isn't impressive, to be honest.

I've spoken with former Michigan players who really didn't understand much about how badly their beloved program was screwed by the false and exagerated reporting in the Free Press.  They are good guys for the most part, but lacking in information, at least on that subject.  Which ought to have been important to them.

But back to your response, JClay:  You took my question, "Are there any DEFENDERS of the Free Press?" and answered by essentially saying that most of the Michigan fan base doesn't care about the Free Press anymore.  Which isn't really an answer.  I do understand that for most, it is all history now and the ordinary fans are moving forward.  What bothers me is that Rosenberg and the Free Press have paid no price, haven't really been called to account, and they are still doing what it is that they were doing when Rodriguez was the coach.  I don't think the Freep has any real defenders, just 'consumers.' 

 

 

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