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Three And Out: The Questioning

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By Brian — September 20th, 2011 at 10:32 AM — 391 comments
Filed under:
  • crowdsourcing
  • john bacon
  • rich rodriguez
  • three and out

rich-rodriguez-whatjohn-u-bacon

So Rich Rodriguez did a deeply bizarre thing. Captain Renault, yes, yes. GERG, yes. 3-3-5 addiction, yes. Groban, yes. Right. I'll start again.

Amongst the many deeply bizarre things that Rich Rodriguez did was allowing John Bacon virtually unfettered access to his program for three years. He didn't know it at the time, but these happened to be the only three years of his program.

I received an advanced copy of the book that resulted and… man. If you are a Michigan fan the result is a must read. Hate Rodriguez, love Rodriguez, have deeply conflicted relationship with Carr, love Carr—doesn't matter. This is not another book where ex-jocks tell jovial stories about the slightly dangerous things that happened to them.

This is a book that immediately makes everyone in it mad as hell except the guy who did Never Forget. This is close to literally true.  Bacon's been banished to the Drew Sharp area of the press box, Michael Rosenberg is livid, Rodriguez himself is apparently hugely pissed. And while I can't confirm this like the above, I can't help but think that Lloyd Carr hates this book more than anything he's ever hated.

I know Bacon a bit and have pressed upon him an opportunity for MGoBlog: to badger him with questions. I would like to crowdsource these questions because these are important. I want to cover all the bases, ask the things clarify a lot of the debates fans have argued endlessly about for the last four years.

So: what would you ask someone who spent the last three years embedded in Operation Spread Ann Arbor? I'll cull the best ones and pose them to Bacon. He'll answer, and maybe we'll get some clarity.

Before you get to asking, some context:

  • While the book documents Rodriguez's increasingly desperate behavior it does seem to have a pro-RR editorial POV. Hard questions will be about the things he did wrong.
  • It does not really address the DC fiascoes, which I'll already be asking about.
  • The Free Press stuff comes in for a thorough treatment; if you want to be pointed the Qs there should be Devil's Advocate type things.
  • It's clear Bacon could not get anything solid on the Great Stapleton/English Conspiracy Theory, though he tried. Wouldn't bother there.
  • The Rodriguez coaching search went down essentially like we expected: Ferentz, panic, Les Miles boat incident, panic, Schiano, panic, Rodriguez.
  • I'm not going to ask a guy who spent three years of his life with unprecedented access to a major college football program why he decided to write a book about it. Figure it out yourself.

Along with a severe grilling of Bacon, we'll be running an excerpt from the book around the time of its publication, which is scheduled for October 25th.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:07 PM
(Reply to #120) #52
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 7194
Mallet, Arrington, Manningham

Mallet, Arrington, Manningham and ... did Boren make a practice squad?

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:07 PM
(Reply to #120) #53
OysterMonkey
OysterMonkey's picture
Joined: 08/22/2009
MGoPoints: 5480
I think he means...

Arrington, Manningham, Mallett, Minor.

Highly debatable that the first three would have stayed no matter what Rodriguez did, though.

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September 20th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
(Reply to #181) #54
BigBlue02
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 11673
You didn't include Minor

You didn't include Minor because he stayed after the hire, but you did include Matthews, who also stayed after the hire and you don't even know if he's on a team? I call bullshit.

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September 20th, 2011 at 3:26 PM
(Reply to #242) #55
BigBlue02
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 11673
If you include every player

If you include every player you mentioned in the "talent still on the team when RichRod was hired" category, you still don't have as many players drafted in RR's entire 3 years as you do in Lloyd's last 2 years. Your point is still horrible, even if you continue to make it over and over. And so you know, it doesn't get any better when you keep including drafted players because they were "technically still on the team" when RR was hired

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September 20th, 2011 at 9:06 PM
(Reply to #301) #56
BigBlue02
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 11673
Ha.  Yes, because when

Ha.  Yes, because when talking about a bare cupboard and the quality of players RR inherited, it is ridiculous to look at how many players were drafted. Plus, my whole point is that your quantity of plates isn't correct. You can keep saying that you don't want to argue about why and when they left, just that they were on the team when he was hired, but that is the whole point. That is the argument about the quantity of plates. I count 1 player on offense drafted since Lloyd left. You count players that were drafted and/or left the team before he coached a game. When you reference players with eligibility left but chose to get drafted, you are bringing up your argument that RichRod could have kept them.  You basically said, "look, I don't want to argue about the reasoning behind my post, but here is why I am right and you are wrong."

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September 20th, 2011 at 2:09 PM
(Reply to #130) #57
mongoose0614
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Joined: 01/13/2009
MGoPoints: 1422
I shall name the dinnerware

Mug:  Graham

plates:  boren/ mallet

I don't consider manningham and AA part of anything because they left early.  I also don't consider 7th rounders and practice squad players worthy of mention when they were never all B1G players or even 2nd team All B1G type players.

Not many freshman or sophomores in that cabinet.

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September 20th, 2011 at 2:50 PM
(Reply to #262) #58
joeyb
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Joined: 10/12/2008
MGoPoints: 14048
You are making the assumption

You are making the assumption that they wouldn't leave, so you are guilty of the same fallacy he is, even more so if you consider that his assumption is based on what actually happened and yours is based on what would make your point valid.

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September 20th, 2011 at 9:17 PM
(Reply to #303) #59
BigBlue02
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 11673
Well this is ridiculous. 

Well this is ridiculous.  What does it matter if he had a full cupboard when he was hired (as you say every time this argument is brought up) if he didn't actually get to coach a game with that full cupboard? Since you don't want to debate about why the kids left, then why would we be referencing a time when they could still chose to leave?

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September 20th, 2011 at 2:56 PM
(Reply to #262) #60
Ivan Karamazov
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Joined: 08/26/2011
MGoPoints: 3023
Interesting points

But I am also impressed at the commitment to metaphorical structure throughout the replies. well done good sirs.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:10 PM
(Reply to #120) #61
msoccer10
Joined: 08/29/2008
MGoPoints: 1754
The ones who split

are Mallett, Boren (on Balitmore's practice squad), Arrington and Manningham. Those are guys in the NFL who had eligibility but left after Rodriguez was signed, although, Mallett, Arrington and Manningham may have left even if Carr had stayed.

Since then Michigan also got Brandon Graham (the mug I assume), Tim Jamison, Zoltan Mesko, Brandon Minor, Jonas Mouton, Stevie Brown (now cut I believe), Steve Schilling, Morgan  Trent, Donovan Warren in the NFL

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:47 AM
#62
oakapple
Joined: 02/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1331
The bizarre goes beyond Rodriguez

I have to assume that the whole U-M administration was on board with allowing Bacon unfettered access to the program. What were they thinking? How did Bacon manage to keep a poker face for three years, knowing (as he must have known) what he was going to write?

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:55 AM
(Reply to #16) #63
Farnn
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 11640
I don't think he did know

I don't think he did know what he was going to write.  I think I recall it was only supposed to be a single year with the program before writing the book.  But as things went wrong he kept at it.  The feeling before the 2008 season was that RR would build a truely elite program and I think this was supposed to be an inside look at that.

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:58 AM
(Reply to #30) #64
oakapple
Joined: 02/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1331
Just to clarify . . .

I wasn’t suggesting that Bacon knew from Day One what he was going to write. No one could have been quite that prophetic. But at some point, long before the end of Year Three, he must have realized where it was going..

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September 20th, 2011 at 11:16 AM
(Reply to #16) #65
M-Wolverine
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Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 42199
Yeah, at some point he had to realize what he was writing

And realize it might not go over so well.

So, my question would be "what books are you going to write about now that Michigan won't let you within a mile of any of their programs anymore?"

I mean, it's not easy to piss off everybody.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:20 PM
(Reply to #60) #66
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
Well, since John's got a gig at the Medill School,

he might not be too worried about Michigan.  Chicago's a pretty big town.

Better question might be how Mark Snyder might get by as an asigned, Michigan beat reporter, when nobody will talk to him.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:30 PM
(Reply to #151) #67
M-Wolverine
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MGoPoints: 42199
I don't think he was writing books for the money

Your point might be fitting if I said "what's he going to do now that they won't let him teach a class at U-M anymore".  But I doubt people will be beating down his door to write a book on the Bears, and he seems to have been writing books about Michigan more for the love than as a cash cow.  And I'll go out on a limb and say that's not happening again.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:48 PM
(Reply to #170) #68
Logan88
Joined: 01/05/2009
MGoPoints: 4643
That would probably be a

That would probably be a great question for "Bacs": Do you regret writing the book?

I would be very interested to hear his feelings now that he has, apparently, become persona non grata with the UM administration due to the book.

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September 20th, 2011 at 1:51 PM
(Reply to #201) #69
Tha Quiet Storm
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Joined: 12/22/2008
MGoPoints: 2260
I think

I think that's an excellent question - I'd be really interested to hear what Bacon's response would be.

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September 20th, 2011 at 1:59 PM
(Reply to #201) #70
Voltron Blue
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Joined: 01/16/2009
MGoPoints: 3017
The question I wanted to pose...

...was very much along these lines.  But not so much "do you regret it?" but more "how much internal struggle did you feel publishing the book knowing it would wreak havoc with those individuals and also potentially distract the program?"  On the one hand, we know Bacon to be a Michigan die-hard, and on the other, also a real journalist with integrity / a stand up guy in general (yes, that's a Freep swipe).  Those dynamics seem to be in conflict here.  It would seem that John went down the "integrity" route (while also creating a more interesting book that will probably make him more money, yes)...but just wondering how difficult that was for him, if at all.  Or maybe he truly didn't expect backlash, though - without having read the book - that seems unlikely.

Note:  I haven't yet read through all the responses, so apologies if this ends up being a duplication.

Thanks, Brian!  Can't wait to get my hands on the book...

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:24 PM
(Reply to #16) #71
Transatlantic Flight
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Joined: 07/30/2009
MGoPoints: 1057
I once had a chance to see

I once had a chance to see Bacon speak at a small event, and he discussed the time he spent with Bo when working on that book. Interestingly enough, he had no definitive subject or even a contract for the book, he just put the time in because he thought it would be worthwhile and eventually it was.

I would imagine he had the same attitude this time around.

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:47 AM
#72
MGoNukeE
MGoNukeE's picture
Joined: 11/11/2009
MGoPoints: 2060
Inside information questions

Regarding the commitment of Demar Dorsey, could John have figured out that he would be rejected by UM admissions before he came to Michigan? Did Rodriguez know of this risk before his pursuit of Dorsey?

What did Rodriguez do for athletes that were thinking about transferring? Did he work hard to keep some/most/all of possible transfers? Was he more successful at keeping athletes from transferring than it appeared from the outside?

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:48 AM
#73
mgofootball4
mgofootball4's picture
Joined: 06/21/2009
MGoPoints: 159
Wow

This is going to be a fascinating book that may change existing opinions of so-called legends like Lloyd Carr. 

Simply can't wait to read this. 

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:52 AM
#74
Jivas
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Joined: 07/06/2008
MGoPoints: 2358
Supposed infighting among ex-players

When Hoke was hired there was suddenly mentions of disagreements between ex-Bo factions and ex-Mo/Lloyd factions that had been cannibalizing the program, culminated by Hoke's under-appreciated quote "How dare us?"

I'd like to know whether and exactly how RichRod's tenure was undermined by the infighting.

EDIT: beaten to it by Hobbes.

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:50 AM
#75
BobbyRizigliana
Joined: 11/11/2008
MGoPoints: 410
Interview timing

It seems like Brian should interview and request questions after we can all read the book.  I feel like many questions asked could be answered in the book and much more pointed questions could be asked after everyone reads it.

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:50 AM
#76
evenyoubrutus
evenyoubrutus's picture
Joined: 11/04/2008
MGoPoints: -11
I truly believe there are few

I truly believe there are few finer journalists in America than John Bacon. This confirms it. I can't wait to read the book.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:10 PM
(Reply to #22) #77
maizenbluenc
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Joined: 07/21/2009
MGoPoints: 7931
Yeah, if he

has truely pissed everyone off, at the expense of being banished to the back of the press box, my esteem for John U. Bacon has gone up even more (and it was high before).

Journalistic cajones - who'd a thunk that even existed any more?

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:50 AM
#78
Red Wing Mike
Joined: 09/20/2011
MGoPoints: 1
RR vs. Admissions?

I would like to find out if there was any animosity between RR and Admissions and, if so, when did it start.  I am specifically thinking of the Demar Dorsey situation but it could certainly be asked in a more general way.

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September 20th, 2011 at 3:07 PM
(Reply to #147) #79
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
I didn't see it that way.

I don't think I knew enough about Dorsey to make a determination, or to substitute my judgment for the University's.

I think that what this Board objected to was the scandalous coverage that the press devoted to Dorsey.  And not so much grades or alternative classes or ACT scores.  If that were the case, I'd really like to have a look at a lot of schools.  No -- the Dorsey story, such as it was, was all about his reputed criminal record.  And whether he was a person of questionable character, not a marginal student.

Whether he ever becomes a Michigan student-athlete or not, I will be rooting for Demar Dorsey to succeed, just to piss off the sportswriters who attacked him.

 

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September 20th, 2011 at 7:45 PM
(Reply to #318) #80
Needs
Joined: 08/05/2008
MGoPoints: 7194
Yep, there were people

Yep, there were people printing the Dean of Admission's email and, presumably, sending emails advocating for Dorsey's acceptance. It was pretty ridiculous.

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September 20th, 2011 at 8:31 PM
(Reply to #318) #81
Feat of Clay
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Joined: 08/10/2009
MGoPoints: 3698
Yes, they harrassed

Yes, they harrassed admissions over it.  The admissions officer who coordinates with the athletic department was named here as well.

Few postings gave OUA  the benefit of doubt.  That was the most disheartening thing to me--I felt like this board really slipped in its commitment to healthy skepticism and insistence on facts before conclusions.  It was a bad week.

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:50 AM
#82
France719
Joined: 03/21/2010
MGoPoints: 423
About William Gholston

What did the coaching staff do to make him stop considering us.? If I remember correctly, Gholston himself referred to something in particular that the staff did that he did not like, saying something along the lines of "They know what they did".  

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:16 PM
(Reply to #25) #83
RagingBean
RagingBean's picture
Joined: 10/29/2008
MGoPoints: 1755
I'm pretty sure "what they

I'm pretty sure "what they did" was be the coaching staff at Michigan. He freakin lived with his coach, who was not only a former Sparty player and homer, but who actively diverted players from M for years. We never had a shot with Gholston.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
(Reply to #144) #84
France719
Joined: 03/21/2010
MGoPoints: 423
I agree that he was MSU bound from the start

but he referred to a specific event and I am asking what that was.

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:51 AM
#85
Elmer
Elmer's picture
Joined: 04/22/2011
MGoPoints: 5141
Help

Who is "the guy who did Never Forget?"

 

 

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September 20th, 2011 at 11:04 AM
(Reply to #26) #86
MH20
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Joined: 10/30/2008
MGoPoints: 17230
Never Forget

The pictorial mash-up of transferred/injured DBs that fell victim to Angry Michigan Secondary Hating God.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:20 PM
(Reply to #26) #87
MGauxBleu
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Joined: 05/08/2009
MGoPoints: 1656
That's me

But I am not sure why I wouldn't be mad.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:27 PM
(Reply to #150) #88
M-Wolverine
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Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 42199
I'm guessing

Probably because you get a shout out in it.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:36 PM
(Reply to #150) #89
Brian
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Joined: 05/26/2008
MGoPoints: 118114
You get a mention at some

You get a mention at some point.

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September 20th, 2011 at 1:09 PM
(Reply to #182) #90
MGauxBleu
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Joined: 05/08/2009
MGoPoints: 1656
Wow.

Wow.

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September 20th, 2011 at 3:31 PM
(Reply to #219) #91
Greg McMurtry
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Joined: 02/25/2009
MGoPoints: 17252
Congrats

MGaux Bleu. I always enjoyed the Teen Wolf reference.

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September 20th, 2011 at 2:18 PM
(Reply to #182) #92
MGoNukeE
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Joined: 11/11/2009
MGoPoints: 2060
Am I the only one

that thinks getting mentioned in a book from their time spent on MGoBlog is worthy of +10,000 MGoPoints... or a T-shirt?

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:53 AM
#93
Chunks the Hobo
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Joined: 07/22/2008
MGoPoints: 4065
Please ask him if he uses the

Please ask him if he uses the word "tremendous" in the book an adequate number of times (roughly once per paragraph).

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:54 AM
(Reply to #27) #94
OysterMonkey
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Joined: 08/22/2009
MGoPoints: 5480
Tremendous question, Chunks.

Tremendous question, Chunks. Just tremendous.

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September 20th, 2011 at 10:55 AM
#95
RagingBean
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Joined: 10/29/2008
MGoPoints: 1755
Just for clarification's

Just for clarification's sake, I think I know what the "Great Stapleton/English Conspiracy Theory" is, but can someone spell it out precisely?

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September 20th, 2011 at 11:12 AM
(Reply to #31) #96
J. Lichty
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 1378
the theory is that English

the theory is that English (former DC under Carr) who wanted the job, and Stapleton his friend in the AD worked behind the scenes to sabotage RR, and that the Freep story was planted by them to try to take down Rodriguez. 

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September 20th, 2011 at 11:33 AM
(Reply to #31) #97
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
I'll give it a try.

Mind you, this is not any sort of "reporting" on my part.  Just a kind of loose explanation of competing theories and rumors.

First, the short cast of characters:

Ron English - Michigan's former DC under Lloyd Carr.  Discharged along with all of the rest of the Carr staff, after Carr's resignation.  Very widely criticized in his last year as DC for App St and Oregon debacles, which were defensive debacles as much as anything.  An African-American, and therefore in a unique posture as a possible replacement HC for Carr.  An obvious candidate for Michigan to interview in its coaching search.  Rejected, then hired as EMU's HC.

James Stapleton - A professional hanger-on in the world of University oversight and collegiate athletics.  Michigan grad; former member of Michgan's Board in Control of Intercollegiate Athletics (since renamed); Democrat Party playa; appointed by Gov. Granholm to the EMU Board of Trustees; has a consulting business of some kind that is sort of amateur-athletics managment-related.  Even while at EMU, highly active in Michigan affairs though friendships, professional connections, alumni associations, etc.

Lloyd Carr, Percy Bates, Compliance Services - Okay so no introductions needed.  Percy Bates has for about one millennium been an academic advisor on the Athletics Board.  He was recently inducted into something called the Minority Collegiate Athletics Hall of Fame or something like that and just so you know, Tom Goss was inducted as a great example of a minority Athletic Director.  Percy Bates would have been copied in on the July 27 2009 CARA-form audit memo that (Rosenberg refuses comment on) was apparently leaked and found its way to Rosenberg and/or Snyder and which launched Stretchgate.

So the story, such as it is, was that there was a cadre of people led (or at least exemplified) by James Stapleton, who wanted Ron English installed as HC.  And when that didn't happen, they were pissed off and sought to undermine Rodriguez.  It is thought that Stapleton, Bates and Carr are all kindred spirits.  Kindred political spirits, especially.  That is, politics in the ordinary sense and local interpersonal politics.

If anybody has more to add, be my guest.  Again, I caution -- this is not reporting on my part.  Somebody asked; and that's the answer from my perspective.

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:04 PM
(Reply to #88) #98
TorontoBlue
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 775
a bit more

in Feb '06, Ron English left the M coaching staff for a job with the Chicago Bears.  Shortly following, Carr shitcanned Jim Hermann and convinced Ron English to return to UM as D Coordinator.  Many feel Carr enticed English to exit the NFL and return to UM with the promise that he would be the "head-coach-in-waiting" (strictly a handshake between Carr & English).  There was a history of hiring from within and English would have the inside track and Carr's blessing as his replacement.  When Bill Martin publicly stated his replacement search would only consider candidates with previous HC experience, English (and Carr) felt Martin welched on their personal agreement.  Carr and English then teamed up with others to torpedo Bill Martin's choice behind the scenes.  Unverified - but intriguing nonetheless. 

GO BLUE!

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September 20th, 2011 at 12:54 PM
(Reply to #127) #99
jblaze
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Joined: 08/29/2008
MGoPoints: 14171
I have heard this version as well,

but I don't think Lloyd was a Ron English or else guy. I think he wanted a guy in his style as coach (Kirk Ferenz, Schiano...) or at the very least wanted to be consulted heavily in the decision, but he clearly was not consulted with the hiring of RR.

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September 20th, 2011 at 5:23 PM
(Reply to #207) #100
Michigan4Life
Joined: 07/29/2010
MGoPoints: 16385
I heard

he wanted Mike DeBord to be the coach. If that's true, better RR than DeBord who would put Michigan into a bigger hole than it already is this year.

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September 21st, 2011 at 11:23 AM
(Reply to #326) #101
Elmer
Elmer's picture
Joined: 04/22/2011
MGoPoints: 5141
Based on his bang-up job at

Based on his bang-up job at Central? 

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