State Of The Site, Late 2013 Comment Count

Brian

keyboard_bash[1]This is obviously meta.

I may or may not do something like this again, but UMHoops does 'em and they seem like a good idea. Since I've mentioned my general dissatisfaction with the way things have been going around here in a couple of different formats, I figure a fuller explanation is due to everyone who doesn't listen to the podcast or care about Twitter, and Twitter was about six sentences anyway.

I've gotten a lot of emails and tweets in support and while I appreciate them a great deal, I feel like it's not really all that bad and perhaps I haven't expressed any of this clearly enough. So here's an attempt.

THE BAD THING

one-flew-over-the-cuckoos-nest-11[1]

We moved servers just before the season, and for some reason this imploded the Drupal module we were using that did the voting/comment-graying. Don't get me started on that unless you want the animated gif above to be my fate.

The new server is a champ, and was direly needed. We only blew up during the Hand commitment aftermath, and I guarantee you that the blog would have been crushed four or five other times during the year if we had not moved. At times this has been a mixed blessing—it probably would have been nice to be down after Penn State—but having your internet site on the internet is a goal.

The cost was steep, as without the obvious disapproval provided by your comment shrinking into a gray box, dumb comments multiplied and fights about those comments multiplied since there was not an obvious indicator that other people had already dismissed it. I felt this would happen but had very little time to do anything about it since this event happened smack-dab in the middle of me pounding out the 50k-word season preview.

Flaming went up, signal got obscured, and things veritably roiled.

THE BLOWUP

We brought Brandon on board to be a recruiting reporter and he posted an interview with a 2016 kid; he gave us a picture in which he looked pretty young. I thought nothing of it because I follow hockey closely and there kids who don't have to shave commit all the time. (A kid born in 1998(!) just committed. The OHL speeds up their timelines.) Michigan just took a 2016 commit in football, and has a half-dozen offers out. But this resulted in a comment thread in which a lot of people made jokes about the kid not having to shave; others put on their Serious Issue faces and wondered if this was ethical. Then the prospect posted a screenshot of people making fun of him on twitter. SMH, man.

By this point we'd had a lot of crap on the board and this was a seeing-red moment. I posted a thread about how this was unacceptable, etc., whereupon there was a huge comment thread in which concern trolling featured heavily. The ethics of talking to high school kids about where they might go to college was frequent topic.

This was and is ridiculous. We're not about to Rosenberg these kids, both because we're not [REDACTED] 5'2" [REDACTED] goobers who'll do someone dirty to get ahead in the world and that going Rosenberg on someone would completely crush us with our readers, deservedly.

We're going to ask them softball questions and publish them after correcting any spelling mistakes, and you, the reader, are going to post comments like "Good luck wherever you go!" because that's the social contract we have here. That's how this works. You are going to assume that high school kids are going to read anything they can about themselves online, and we're going to throw Charmin at them in slow motion. This is not hard-hitting journalism here.

Anyway. The primary concern troll was a guy who'd been around since the very beginning of the site, chitownblue. He quit in a huff once, then came back as chitownblue2, and almost never appeared except to chide someone about something. At some point virtually everyone who writes for the site complained to me about him. The rest of the people who had posted things that broke the social contract in that thread quickly apologized; he dug in to fight the battle of the Somme. Another complaint about him happened in the midst of that thread, during which my dander was up and finger already hovering over the button. So I banned him, and various compatriots. And I've had an itchy trigger finger since.

They'd been around forever. I regret nothing, except that I waited so long. I hated that guy.

THE ISSUE

A friend sent me this post from 4chan's founder in response to similar issues he'd had, in which he cites another post from Steve Pavlina about why he shut his popular forums down. Pavlina talks a lot about entitlement of longtime users and standards that he felt weren't being met, both of which I kind of feel. But moot's thing is the thing:

Something that’s always surprised me is how often people seem to forget how large the overall 4chan community is outside of their own respective interaction with it. Some simply don’t care, but I think others plain don’t realize they’re just one of millions of people who post and browse 4chan on a monthly basis. …

My view is that it simply isn’t possible nor prudent to attempt to please everyone, and so I don’t. This can be misinterpreted as not caring, but it’s far from it—it’s just a reflection of my belief that the needs of the community outweigh the needs of individuals. Which is an ideal I think most would agree with, but when emotions run wild and tensions run high, we often lose sight of it.

The general rule of thumb is that 10% of your readers will read the comments/forums and 1% will leave most of them. I believe our numbers are quite a bit higher than that, but even so that the the primary thing that happens in the comments is lurkers reading them. From the perspective of the commenters these people do not exist. From my perspective, they're the majority of the readerbase.

Most of these people seem to like the site. They visit it. That majority has not been reflected in the comments. Of late when people recognize me I wince a bit, because I'm not sure how this interaction is going to go. I'm kind of waiting for someone to unload on me. This never happens.

As the season's gone along this disconnect has become apparent. And I'm finding the complaints harder to deal with because with the demise of voting so many of them have become personal attacks hardly sheathed in anything resembling logic. Brandon just took a lot of crap for posting that usually when recruits are open with him that means they're excited about Michigan and Malik McDowell was tight-lipped, which may not bode well. This exploded into controversy for some reason: that reason is there are a bunch of people who just complain about everything about the site.

IT'S NOT YOU, IT'S ME

Why these people can't let go and do something else, I don't know. They're locked in a prison of their own devising, being miserable about the state of the blog while they make it worse by constantly complaining about it.

I am going to help both these folks and myself escape from purgatory by hitting the eject button on them. Like this guy who has 41,000 points, most of which seem to be accumulated complaining about the site. And this guy. Great news for everyone: they're banned. Now they are free to explore the rest of the internet, perhaps to find something they don't hate.

This represents a policy change. In short, that is: if the people who write for this site hate you we will ban you. That is the upshot of the twitter burst and the podcast thing. This is not really a change for most people since we did that for anyone with a few points who came in guns blazing. This mostly applies to folks like guy I just banned who'd accumulated the third-most points on the site. I hated that guy! For three years! And out of some idea about respecting the community I let him fart all over it.

To respect the community, we should ban jerks, even if they've been around so long that it seems that there must be some redeeming value in having them around.

If you don't like the way the comments are laid out, or you think there should be more jumps, or fewer jumps, or have a substantive disagreement with what I think, or even have argument-free opinions I roll my eyes at every six months or so, fine. I have to get to know you to loathe you. All you people are good. In fact, here are protips to not get banned under this new regime:

  1. Don't have an avatar. You're less likely to get noticed.
  2. Don't be a jerk to people who write for the site. Much more difficult that #1, but still doable if you try.
  3. Don't constantly complain about the people I hire. If you want to send me an email, fine. Publicly crapping on the other guys who write for us is filed under jerk.
  4. Don't get mad at me for having a particular emotional state. This happened constantly throughout the season, as if the internet tough guys who were taking the bullets the season threw at them could somehow improve my mood by berating me.

I can understand how the last few years have put people in a place where they find me irritating after once enjoying the site, but all the comments in the world aren't going to be able to change what is primarily a sports blog about what it feels like to be a Michigan fan. If you feel differently, okay! I accept that you feel differently. If you want me to feel like you, that is an argument you are welcome to have anywhere else.

It's been a trying year for everyone, and I'm about to go figure out how to get the damned voting back on comments, so hopefully things will recede from this, their irritating zenith. Thank you to everyone who did not expect me to be an emotional clone of themselves this year, which is like 99% of you. I enjoy you.

-Brian

Comments

Wendyk5

December 6th, 2013 at 3:47 PM ^

I'm still surprised anyone besides your wife, family and the friends who actually know you personally care that much about your emotional state as it pertains to Michigan football that they would call you out. Don't get this at all. In any event, I certainly have enjoyed my time here and I thank all who contributed to that. 

VAGenius

December 6th, 2013 at 3:51 PM ^

to post much useful commentary, but I have always found there are plenty of people on this blog who do. Anything Brian is doing to reduce the amount of crap that one has to wade through to get to the "good" comments is something I endorse wholeheartedly.

As far as the blog being "about what it feels like to be a Michigan fan", there's a lot less we can do to control that. It's been a tough year, and I suspect some portion of the noise is related to that.

Big_G

December 6th, 2013 at 3:51 PM ^

Very long-time reader, occasional poster, and all-too-often lately just a lurker.  For the bulk of us who read the site, treading onto the forums and comment sections has been intimidating.  Say one thing that goes against the board's group think or have a differing opinion and at best you just get ignored.  At worst you pick up a troll or two who call you all sorts of stuff.  I hope these changes do bring a more civilized commentary back to the boards, along with a more inviting environment for us lurkers and seldomly seen posters, so that a more diverse discussion on a topic can be seen.   

Arizona Blue

December 6th, 2013 at 3:51 PM ^

I havent posted in forever but wanted to thank Brian & Co for creating the number one consumer of my free time.

My michigan fandom would not be nearly the same without you guys.

 

 

The FannMan

December 6th, 2013 at 3:54 PM ^

Does Protip 4 mean that we can't make fun of Brian's love of the Smith's anymore?

I kid, I kid.  But serioulsy, is that off limits?

By the way, I have noticed a new MGoTerm and I have no idea what it means,  Can someone please tell me what a "Concern Troll" is?  I feel like all the cool kids know what it means and i don't.  

Monocle Smile

December 6th, 2013 at 4:01 PM ^

Instead of coming out and just disagreeing with someone, the concern troll will pretend to also hold the OP's opinion (and/or compliment the OP), but have "concerns" about the position or tone or something else. Usually these "concerns" are inane or unfounded, which is why the concern troll pretends to share the OP's position...it's a weak attempt to give them "street cred."

borninAnnArbor

December 6th, 2013 at 5:11 PM ^

I would equate concern trolling with that lady at the park (or church, school, etc) who butts in to give parenting advice while her own kid is eating glue and stealing a twenty from a strangers purse.

Also, thank you Brian for establishing a community where the leaders express basically my thoughts and feelings in a manner that is so much more eloquent than my guttural utterances.

BiSB

December 6th, 2013 at 4:07 PM ^

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll

"A typical formulation might involve the troll's invocation of a site's espoused ideals alongside a perceived example of hypocrisy (such as contrasting "we value free speech" with the banning of a "dissenter"), and with a call for some relevant reform by the troll. This reform will frequently be burdensome or silly - the concern troll's message is: "I have some concerns about your methods. If you did these things to make your message less effective, it would be more effective." Surprisingly, there are people who spend so much time on the Internet that this is actually a thing they worry about.

One common tactic of concern trolls is the "a plague on both your houses" approach, where the concern troll tries to convince people that both sides of the ideological divide are just as bad as each other, and so no one can think themselves "correct" but must engage in endless hedging and caveats. This preys on a willingness to debate critics and allow dissent; everyone wastes time discussing the matter and bending over backwards, so as not to appear intolerant of disagreement, all to the great amusement of the troll."

Space Coyote

December 6th, 2013 at 4:13 PM ^

But I read this and still am extremely confused. I mean, I think I kind of get it, but if someone told me to define it I'd likely stare at them blankly.

By the way, I'm concerned that this blog also doesn't understand it. Maybe if they found a way to generalize concern trolling a bit better we could come to an agreement on what not to do. That's just a suggestion that maybe would really help the site going forward.

\Did I get it?

Space Coyote

December 6th, 2013 at 4:48 PM ^

It's like saying "I understand there is concern trolling on this board, but by calling out the trolling posters that you simply disagree with, I'm afraid people will start claiming it's hypocritical and that you're, in fact, trolling to get more clicks."

Something like that? Acting like you agree with someone while generally providing evidence and ammunition for the other side of the argument?

StephenRKass

December 6th, 2013 at 4:09 PM ^

Brian, I'm thankful for your job, and your fandom, and for this welcome diversion. I'm looking forward to the return of both positive and negative user moderation.

The focus has largely been on the "negbang." But the "posbang" was a wonderful way to affirm and encourage great posts. I fondly remember some of those posbangs (iirc, "Raback" and "BKfinest" it, as regards a recruit commiting to Michigan?) Anyway, it was great to give a positive bump to those who really contributed to the conversation.

Conversely, there was something kind of crazy about the meltdowns, where jerks would continue to post, and in the span of one thread with 10 of their own idiot responses lose hundreds and hundreds of points. Guys would go through the threads just to negbang them on everything they posted.

My personal preference was to leave the negative posts up to read, because sometimes there were good insights. The negative vote was just a red flag letting you know that the content might be worth skipping. For me, the benefit of the negbang wasn't so much to hide threads, but to slow down the negativity and insults, and secondarily, to make it easier for mods to bring down the hammer.

It is too bad you have to go back to the neg/pos bang, but I don't think you have a choice. Users won't be civil and respectful to those they disagree with otherwise. 

Regardless, I'm looking forward to mgoblog becoming a more hospitable and readable blog going forward.

EDIT:  And I'm keeping my username, and my avatar, even if it gets me banned. And if I ever get banned, it just means that I need to become a lurker with no account and no posting privileges.

EDIT 2:  Mods or Brian, is there an ETA on this point system returning? End of the year? 6 months? Next August? I've gathered for some time that it was coming back, but I don't recall any sense of when that's going to happen.

SalvatoreQuattro

December 6th, 2013 at 4:12 PM ^

Jeebus, people need to chilax.

 

I visit this blog because it provides something the corporate boards do not--well written, no-holds-bar, commentary on everything Michigan football. Sure, I don't agree with everything Brian says and I often find his article a bit too negative. But that's to be expected. 

 

All I know is that when I leave this site I am a better fan because I am well-informed. That, to me, is the best compliment I can give any journalist.

RickAndScott

December 6th, 2013 at 5:00 PM ^

As a lurker who has considered posting here but knew my blood pressure would get too high with apologist/company line types around, I have to say that the banning of M-Wolverine is encouraging.

Trying to say this as nice as possible, but I think you have made some threads unreadable with your defensiveness and I'm sure you and I would have had it out. I thought you might get the axe but since you didn't, I hope that you see the kinds of things that ruined the board before and move away from it.

It would be great to post here. I hope you change or get taken care of because you're another problem.

SalvatoreQuattro

December 6th, 2013 at 5:39 PM ^

One day in and you have already established yourself as a troll. Congrats, you have made yourself known as one of the legion of trolls and douchebags who inhabit the internet irritating and provoking people to get their jollies. Your parents must be so proud of this unique accomplishment of yours.

 

 

bsomething5

December 6th, 2013 at 4:18 PM ^

I've been following the blog for nearly half a decade now as a reader, but never as a commentator.  In response to Brian's post, I created an account to thank you guys for the work that you do.  It's much appreciated and has been a constant source of entertainment through the good and the bad.  Once again, thank you.    

BlindRef

December 6th, 2013 at 4:23 PM ^

Brian,

I'm definetly in that 'lurker' class.  I hardly post but I check the site daily.  This blog and its contents have become an important part of my fandom.  I am very proud that you and your staff represent the Michigan community.  Keep up the great work, and thanks for all you do.

 

 

SiKa7x

December 6th, 2013 at 4:25 PM ^

I think I heard you say this at some point before while kinda addressing this issue before, you said something about it being your site. And thats just the thing, it is your site. I have my own site for my business and I love owning it. But not everyone in the world is a good person, we hear about the bad ones on the news all the time, internet trolls are a different form of those bad people and theres really only one thing they deserve. To be cut off from everyone else and void of sympathy. I know you care about the site a lot and it is your well-being after all, but most of us wont care if you banhammer a select few who really deserve it. Just take care of the site, I love reading it, so give the people you dont want around here the big middle finger and forget about them. I for one would rather read posts about the state of UM sports things and happenings than I would something like this about the douchers of the world. But it happens. I support MGoBlog and have it on RSS. Keep doing what you do. Same with the rest of the staff.

trueblueintexas

December 6th, 2013 at 4:32 PM ^

I follow this blog for two reasons. First and foremost my very unhealthy love of the University of Michigan and its athletic department. The second is for work. Being a guru about digital marketing is what I do for a living. I have been following the trends of this blog and have been curious to see how this was all going to come to a head. We'll all see where this goes but for now...well played Brian...well played indeed.

m1jjb00

December 6th, 2013 at 4:32 PM ^

It educates: the UFRs, the page plays, recruiting, etc.

It's a great source of news.  Just today, it's where I found out that Petersen was set to go to Washington.  I love the fact that I can hear rumors and be told, hey it's just a rumor.

It makes me think.  The range of opinions let me know where the disagreements and ambiguities are, and I can judge the arguments to come to some determination of what I should think, even it it's not 100%.

It makes me laugh a whole lot.   Many of you are freaking hilarious.

Finally, it's a community where I feel comfortable.  I remember when Troy Woolfork, err. Wolfok destroyed his ankle.  Mgoblog helped me get over literally my grief.

What I'd ask is that people keep this in mind when they feel that, "Darn it, I must be heard."  If you're not contributing in the various ways above, can you just respect the community enough so that it's a lighter touch otherwise? 

Derek Gorgonstar

December 6th, 2013 at 4:53 PM ^

This is my first post.

I've been a site reader for 4-5 years, and a podcast listener since the season started. The site is great, there's no doubt about that, and the podcast as well. 

The one thing that I didn't care for was podcast commentary such as, "if Michigan is losing by 20 points to Ohio State, I might just leave." With the dedication that's put into the site, no one could accuse you of being a fair-weather fan, but I just felt that the effort that the players put in all year deserved more than this, they are clearly giving it their all. Also, recruits, and potential recruits, are reading more than their profile, I doubt that they'd like hearing something like this. 

Some people on the site were simply trolls, I can understand that, but why not just ignore them? Banning anyone, no matter how abrasive or dimwitted they are, seems thinskinned and petty. The one exception, in my mind, would be the obvious buckeye trolls, let them go to 11w. 

Some of us rub people the wrong way. I grew up in New York, and when I moved to Atlanta, people didn't like me. Many still don't. But I'm not going to walk on eggshells if I have an opinion. I wonder if so many people are agreeing with you because they now wonder what will happen to them.

Hopefully this is not my last post.

P.S. I think Gardner has not been right since the State game. He seems like he lost his burst after that, and I have a feeling that this offense, with 5 weeks of rest, will put 40 points on someone in the bowl game. Hopefully they play Georgia, I'm surrounded by grown men who bark.

Holmdel

December 6th, 2013 at 6:14 PM ^

So first I'll say, I mostly agree with this Gorgonstar guy, even though, by all accounts, he has been a real douche in ATL.  /s

I think it is fine to ban trolls, and to call out gratuitous vitriole, and when it is your house, you are entitled to kick out rude guests, but...

As much as I like this site (and I truly think it is a treasure, think the TFLs are fantastic, think Brian is witty, and love the up to date recruiting news), this year has been very disappointing for me bcause I feel that Brian has displayed an unflattering level of narcissism. 

Let me put it in context.  We beat ND and Brian raves about the inventiveness of Borges's offensive play-calling.  Gardner plays like a Heisman hopeful.  Fast-forward to the Penn State debacle, and suddenly Gardner has (IMO) completely hamstrung the offense through his poor decisionmaking, which led to more conservative playcalling, which led to the MSU sackfest, which led to an injured Gardner who lacks burst, all a vicious spiral.  This was painful for all of us fans to watch.  

But what made matters worse IMO was coming to this site and seeing (a) the relentless vitriole against Borges, and (b) Brian's commentary dissolving into self-absorbed negativity.  It started to feel more and more like it was about Brian, Brian, Brian, and not so much about the team, the team, the team.  I even had the fleeting feeling of resentment toward Brian during the first half of the OSU game, when we (and Borges and Gardner) were clicking on all cylinders.  Why was I resentful?  Not because I am any particular afficianado of manball, not because somehow Brian's advocacy of spread concepts had hurt my feelings, not because I felt Brian's criticism of Borges had been disloyal...but because Brian had really, I felt, indulged himself, his biases and his moods to an unseemly extent.  

I think I'd feel better about the State of the Site if Brian would own a bit of the blame for the site's deterioration this year and pledge to be a bit less self-absorbed in 2014.

BradP

December 6th, 2013 at 9:36 PM ^

Because Brian's mood for the last two months has been morose, negative, and combative and has posted a podcast and blog post with 500 posts about how the tenor of the board has become negative and combative.

Because Brian took multiple shots at one of the best commentors and most active members of the MgoBlog community that he had already banned with the note:  "I hated that guy! For three years!"

Seems Brian's emotional state has a huge effect on the blog and board, so if you like either, you might be concerned with it.

Schembo

December 6th, 2013 at 10:17 PM ^

Brian's mood is result of the board hell bent on pushing him to this point.  Some of the exchanges in the recruiting threads are just flat out uncomfortable to read, and everyone's been warned on more than one occasion.  If he's been combatitive, it's been on isolated and justified instances.

BradP

December 7th, 2013 at 9:25 AM ^

I'm not really sure about that.

1)  The season did a lot to him.  It wasn't the board that led him to stop charting with the Iowa game.

2)  The board is easily avoidable, and I suspect that there are things we do not see that have contributed more than the board/comments.

3)  Go back and read that picture pages that was mostly a very defensive and combattive response to Space Coyote.  If anything, Space Coyote has been extremely respectful in an atmosphere where most have vehemently disagreed with him (including me).

4)  And like I said earlier, there were valid complaints about putting interviews with HS soph on the front page of this blog, or soliciting interviews with high schoolers via text and posting them verbatim.  Brian's response to them was a combative dismissal that basically added up to "Haters gonna hate".

I think Brian's disposition has effected this blog negatively, and is at least somewhat responsible for the issues he addressed in this post.

lbpeley

December 7th, 2013 at 8:12 AM ^

Definitely, like, your opinion man. That guy was insufferable the past year or so. He used to be fine. What I think happened is he wanted a mod position or something a year or more back and wasn't offered it. Something definitely changed in his demeanor a while back.

Huma

December 7th, 2013 at 12:10 AM ^

Right or wrong, many people follow and accept Brian's opinion as gospel on this blog. Sometimes it is great b/c he has fantastic, informative analyses. I have certainly learned a lot over the years. But I also think some of the negative posts have lead to extreme vitriol against the players and coaches when we encounter even the slightest bit of adversity. As of late it seems that every board post leads to an endless string of how awful our team / coaches / players are. We need to stop that. Bringing back voting is a step in the right direction.

Shalom Lansky

December 6th, 2013 at 4:55 PM ^

"Why these people can't let go and do something else, I don't know. They're locked in a prison of their own devising, being miserable about the state of the blog while they make it worse by constantly complaining about it."

You (Brian) described your relationship with Michigan Football almost identically before the Ohio State game.  Interesting (but probably meaningless) parallel,

 

imafreak1

December 6th, 2013 at 4:56 PM ^

In all sincerity, I think the thing that would be best for Mgoblog would be for Mr. Cook to ignore the comments and to instruct his employees, that are bothered by the comments, to do the same. Cook never really engages in the disc ussions and is very clearly bothered by them. This irritation then has a negative effect on his writing and analysis.

Let the mods handle anything that is clearly beyond the pale and ignore everything else.

Shop Smart Sho…

December 7th, 2013 at 9:47 AM ^

I used to think that, but then TheBigLead just kept on getting bigger and more popular.  They seem to have actively done the things that their commenters hate.  I understand now that commenters really are just the vocal minority, and as long as the clicks keep increasing, it doesn't really matter what we say.

Seth

December 6th, 2013 at 5:10 PM ^

I was never very bothered by those guys. M-Wolverine read and posted on everything on this site, so of course things had meaning to him. He also came to every MGoEvent, bought every MGoThing, and participated in as many MGoActivities as we'd let him.

Mejunglechop wrote some good diaries in the day and I don't remember him being an outright asshole to me ever, or to anyone else ever except about the Brandon Brown shit.

If I could pick any guy to not ban it's chitown. So what if most of the time he posted with quibbles; his quibbles were very informed and more often than not when he chastised me (his favorite target) he was right and it made the post better for that.

Brian makes these calls, not me. But my main concern with sending the committedcontrarians on their way is we're giving up on anything they contributed, which wasn't nil.

Various people had problems with me--especially since I was one of the first to detract from the site being all-Brian--and gave me shit in the comments. Those worth answering I answered cordially and took their concerns seriously, and eventually even guys who hated me (jg2112 comes to mind) seemed to get used to me and could appreciate what I posted.

People have been shits to Brandon and BiSB--and I've been telling those guys to just ignore the shits as sad internet people and treat the good people being shitty as such. I guess banning is an answer. The best answer with non-useless people is to win them over.