Recruiting Mailbag With Steve Lorenz: O-Line, Decommits, Ohio Comment Count

Steve Lorenz

Ed-Ace: Recruitnik extraordinaire, regular podcast guest, and noted darts enthusiast Steve Lorenz of Wolverine247, aka The Artist Formerly Known As Aquaman, is back with his weekly recruiting mailbag. If you aren't subscribed to 247 and want to read more from Steve and the gang, they're running a buy one month, get two months free promotion.

pkatz asks: Seems to be a lot of flux in our OL recruiting - where do we stand now on elite tackle recruits in 2017? 

I feel like Michigan is not so much in a "flux" situation as they are in a "wait and see" mode on the offensive line in 2017. The only thing I would call a flux is the number they would take, which is something that could literally change by the hour. 

They have the four verbal commitments currently, and depending on who they reel in it will likely be six or seven to finish out. The names they're pursuing have remained pretty much the same (no order): Aaron Banks, Isaiah Wilson, Henry Bainivalu (could be guard or tackle), Cesar Ruiz (interior), TJ Slaton (most likely interior), Alex Leatherwood, Walker Little, Chuck Filiaga, Austin Deculus, Jedrick Wills, Toryque Bateman and I'm sure a couple of others. 

Michigan's best shots are the guys they currently lead for on the Crystal Ball: Ruiz, Wilson and Slaton. They are in the thick of it for Bainivalu, and have a puncher's chance at flipping Leatherwood and Deculus. Wills and Filiaga are future official visitors that qualify as longshots. Bateman is a wait-and-see type prospect who will probably officially visit after the season. 

Basically it comes down to the fact that the remaining names they're in on are elite talents that can afford to wait out the process. Given the need for bodies up front and a potential opportunity to play early, they should finish out very strong across the board on the OL provided they keep winning games. 

[Hit THE JUMP for Steve's takes on decommits, M-OSU recruiting battles, and several quick-hitters.]

615Wolverine asks: Why are there so many decommitments lately? I know most were from 2018 class. Is Jim reevaluating them or are we on a limited scholarship count ?

Harbaugh is serious about the "meritocracy" stuff, but in my opinion it's almost to a fault. 

None of their recent decommitments outside of Aubrey Solomon are very meaningful as far as impact on Michigan's recruiting. The only way it would be is if the staff didn't believe they could find a player they deem better in the long run, and I don't think any of the others fit that bill. 

There are a lot of reasons kids open it back up: 

Some commit too early in the process, aren't getting the attention from other schools they were possibly getting before and want that spotlight again. Others commit too early, don't develop as expected and are told to look elsewhere by the schools. Others commit without visiting more than one or two programs and open it back up after seeing what some others may have to offer. Others are simply flaky; Jordan Elliott in the last cycle is a perfect example of this. 

It's gotten weird, but we're at the point where a junior prospect (2018 in this case) committing this early actually lessens the chance said prospect will sign with the school they're committing to. That's how high the rate of decommitments are at this point (I don't have the exact number, but it's grown). 

My thoughts boil down to this: Michigan should be more judicious about who they offer and when. Is it going to hurt them in the short run with prospects? Not as long as they win, but by taking guys who they aren't 100% sure they are going to sign (which they definitely have), they're leaving themselves open to some unnecessary negative recruiting by other programs. It's something that's really easy for them to avoid. 


Meyer has invaded M's base; Harbaugh hasn't reciprocated yet. [Upchurch]

StephenRKass asks: A lot of stuff about Michigan and Ohio State recruiting

There's a lot here, but it's worth covering so I will keep it succinct and hopefully to the point: 

As of today, Ohio State is in a golden age of recruiting, even for a program as tradition-laden as theirs. Meyer can go into a kid's living room and show them three national championship rings and a laundry list of players he has recruited both at Ohio State and Florida that have gone on to play and succeed at the NFL level. If you take everything else out of the equation, those are still the two things that are going to resonate most with elite prospects and their families. 

Under Harbaugh, I think Michigan can get into a similar situation regarding being able to pitch wins (big ones) and NFL production (proven). They also have the academic angle, which can give them the edge over certain kids in certain situations. 

They usually recruit pretty similar players, especially on the national level. The major difference the last five or six years has been Ohio State's total dominance in their home state. Michigan did well in 2012 and 2013 under Hoke, but with Meyer firmly entrenched in Columbus, it's become nearly impossible for Michigan (or anyone) to beat the Buckeyes for a player they truly want in-state. That's been the one glaring weakness for Michigan, as Ohio is a state they're accustomed to at least getting a couple blue-chippers out of each cycle. 

As far as "concern," it's not really a word I associate with recruiting. I think with Harbaugh at the helm, Michigan will put themselves in a position to compete on the field, which will subsequently affect their fortunes on the recruiting trail. Harbaugh took a moribund Stanford program and had it competing with Pete Carroll's USC dynasty in three years; there's no reason to think he can't eventually do the same against Meyer and Ohio State. 

Lightning Round

JTrain asks: Do you envision Lovie Smith reviving a pretty beatdown Illinois program? 

It's going to take him a little while. I think he's capable of doing it in the Big Ten West though. It's a matter of how patient both he and the program will be with him. If he's in it for the long haul, I could see him finding a solid amount of success there. They've done a decent job on the recruiting trail under him so far. 

ThadMattasgoblin asks: What impact would a playoff appearance have on Michigan's momentum on the recruiting trail? 

It would be massive. Going back to the Michigan/OSU answer—Harbaugh has a proven track record of developing talent. He also has proven he can win, but progression this early at Michigan would be the final step for them to build national championship-level recruiting classes. You can't overstate how big of an impact it would have IMO. 

UMProud asks: How soon do you think Michigan will pull a #1 class in? 

It probably won't be for a while, but not because they won't reel in top talent. It's mostly because they probably won't be #1 in 2017, and their 2018 and 2019 classes should be smaller than the 2016 and 2017 ones. The number to keep an eye on in those cycles would be the stars per commit number. 

Ziff72 asks: How much interaction does an average top100 recruit get in a week from Michigan? 

This varies so wildly by each player that you can't really answer it definitively. 2017's number one prospect, Najee Harris, has cut off all communication with college coaches during his high school season, so it would be zero for him. For others, it is a lot more. How many schools are they still considering? When are they deciding? Where have they visited? All of that goes into it. 

For the fun of it, I asked a five-star recruit that is considering Michigan how often they're contacted by coaches. 

"30 calls/texts per week," they said. "Mostly from schools I'm still considering, but some I'm not still reach out to me." 

I would say this is about an average number this time of year. 

DT76 asks: How was Chris Evans a three-star? As opposed to Derrick Green (example)? 

247 had Chris Evans as a four-star prospect. I'm not sure if we were the only ones who did or not. [Ed-Ace: Scout was the other.] I also had him listed as the prospect most likely to outdo his recruiting ranking as well. There were some clear signs he could break out. I know his ability to make big plays in big games was something that stood out to his high school coach. He did a lot of the intangible stuff you can't teach in that regard. 

With Green, I think we had him far lower than anybody else in the final 2013 rankings. [Ed-Ace: Yup.] If you remember, he had offers from Ohio State, Auburn, Tennessee and pretty much everybody else as well, and was a highly pursued recruit until his college decision. I don't do any of the evaluating or ranking on the site, but I do know that the opinion of college coaching staffs is part of what goes into ranking a guy. If that many schools like him and want him, you have to believe he's capable of becoming a player.

Comments

ertai

September 19th, 2016 at 5:45 PM ^

Wow this comment from that Derrick Green recruiting post is just brutal in retrospect:

 

Is it an inappropriate comparison to say that the backfield of Gardner/Toussaint/Green is comparable to that of Smith/Pittman/Wells?  The biggest difference is that Gardner is a far more accurate passer than Smith, and probably has a stronger arm too.

Rabbit21

September 19th, 2016 at 4:32 PM ^

I think Michigan has to start getting in on the Ohio players early(much like they did with the two early 2018 commits) and recruit them hard and show some relative success, Urban at Ohio State is going to be a 500 lb. gorilla, but Michigan can't just cede that territory to OSU like they did a decade ago to Tressel.  They also need to grab a couple of players who fit their system but not OSU's and keep up relationships in the state(kind of like what they seem to be doing in the 2017 class).  By all means, expand the recruiting net the way they are doing now, but try to make OSU fight for it a little.

Also, I agree the staff is taking some commitments too early, but I also think they're learning a lesson there.  If I had my way, there would be no taking a commit until the previous class has done it's NSD, but that may be a bit too hard of a line.

Yard Dog

September 19th, 2016 at 4:56 PM ^

Michigan has ALWAYS recruited well in Ohio.  This is one thing that is frustrating me a bit with our recruiting, we seem to be bypassing Ohio for the time being.

I'm hoping Harbaugh and Co. are in a relationship building mode and waiting for those visits to bear fruit.  Even Dantonio has had some success recruiting in Ohio (see LJ Scott among others), so I would expect Michigan to be able to pull a few high profile kids out of there.

Blue In NC

September 19th, 2016 at 5:25 PM ^

Well Dananio (1) was a coach at OSU, and (2) shares a mutual hatred of Michigan with OSU so no big surprise he can pull a recruit or two.  Hoke was a former head coach in Ohio so he pulled a few but not many head to head big battles.  Harbaugh probably is not as well liked in Ohio.  So it may take him a bit longer to build relationships in Ohio.  Assistants could help here but he has mostly pulled NFL or west coast guys (with the exception of Brown).  I think Michigan needs to do better in Ohio but targeting places like NJ, FL and even AL seems to be paying off nicely.

Mr Miggle

September 19th, 2016 at 5:37 PM ^

That changed went Tressel got the job. It's been a struggle to pull top flight players since. Hoke had a lot of connections down there. He did great in their Fickell transition year. Other than that, Gedeon might be the only in-state recruit he beat out OSU for.

As far as MSU goes, they do depend on Ohio for a good chunk of their players. Other than Scott, have they won a single battle with Meyer or Tressel for an Ohio kid?

TrueBlue2003

September 19th, 2016 at 6:16 PM ^

but Ohio is a very talent rich state and even getting the best guys that OSU doesn't have room for is big, which MSU has done fairly well.

I'm not sure it was Tressel coming in as much as Lloyd leaving that ended the Ohio pipeline. In 2003, Burgess (#1 in OH!!) and Crable (#5 in OH) were Lloyd recruits when Tressel was there. 2004 wasn't great, but 2005 we got Mario (#3 in OH) and Brandon Harrison (#6 in OH).

RR's secondary (and maybe even primary) recruiting was focused on system guys from FL (mostly three stars) and outside of the region and that really marked the end of it.  Hoke did decently well to bring back an Ohio pipeline but he only had two recruiting classes that weren't transition year or sinking ship year.  

Harbaugh tried to get it going when he made a hard push for Vince Morrow to come over from UK.  It looks like that staff might not last much longer so it'll be interesting to see if we make another run at him. He's not getting top 10 OH guys to come to UK, but he's getting lots of top 40 guys.  Wonder if that would translate to some top 10 wins at UM.

trueblueintexas

September 19th, 2016 at 6:23 PM ^

Those of us who are a little older think we remember a time when Michigan recurited Ohio well (at least northern Ohio). Most of us would be quick to point out, Woodson, Howard, Grbac all came from Ohio. Most of us probably are not sure about how many other recruits came from Ohio throughout the 80's and 90's. But the truth is, Michigan is coming off of it's "best" period of recruiting Ohio for the past 14 years (Mainly thanks to Hoke. RichRod had a higher quantity than Carr, but the quality compared to Hoke isn't close.)

Here are the recruits from Ohio going back to 2002 (Rivals database):

2002     2 (Barringer, Bihl)

2003     2 (Burgess, Crable)

2004     1 (Massey)

2005     4 (Harrison, Mesko, Simpson, Manningham)

2006     3 (Mixon, Boren, Wright)

2007     0

2008     7 (Mealer, Moore, Shaw, Koger, Hill, Omameh, Roundtree)

2009     3 (Turner, Bell, Toussaint)

2010     11 (Robinson, Williamson, Kinnard, Pace, Avery, Talbott x2, Vinoal, Davion Rodgers, Jake Ryan, Jibreel Black)

2011     7 (Clark, Poole, Heitzman, Carter, Miller, Rock, Brown)

2012     9 (Henry, Wormley, Kalis, Wilson, Strobel, Gant, Bolden, A.J. Williams, Ringer)

2013     9 (Reon Dawson, Douglas, Gedeon, De'Veon Smith, McCray, Dukes, Butt, Taco, Dymonte Thomas)

2014     2 (Furbush, Ferns)

2015     3 (Ulizio, Kinnel, Andrew David)

2016     0 

2017     2 (Hudson, Honigford) So far, we'll see what this looks like come signing day. 

 

funkifyfl

September 19th, 2016 at 4:40 PM ^

About having recruits and players from all over the country. Yes, this is somewhat a rationalization of the fact that OSU can recruit primarily in-state and still have a stacked roster, but I think there would be some appeal to playing with guys from all over the country.

CorkyCole

September 19th, 2016 at 4:58 PM ^

OSU at this point is doing the same. I think they're just being a little pickier with their Ohio kids they go after, which is probably why Solomon made a quick commitment with Michigan then backing off once OSU went after him. That's my take on it at least.

They guys they have committed in the 2017 cycle are from all over the place. Harbaugh, like you said, will take this same approach and is taking this same approach. I expect that to be even moreso in the 2018 and 2019 classes when our class size shrinks.

TrueBlue2003

September 19th, 2016 at 6:23 PM ^

but all things equal, it's not as good for the football team.  If you get national players, you're going to be winning battles against teams you're never going to play, which is good for the B1G ten overall because it leaves the regional guys as targets for the other teams in the conference.  MSU has benefitted quite a bit from our lack of OH recruiting and not as strong recruiting in MI since RR took over.

JBombs3224

September 19th, 2016 at 4:47 PM ^

Any chance we can flip Najee Harris if he has cut off communication during his season?  That seems like a long shot to me at this point but I'd love to be wrong. Never count out Jim Harbaugh! He is the reason Chuck Norris went into hiding.

Farnn

September 19th, 2016 at 5:17 PM ^

It's only during his HS season, does't have much impact on his recruiting. It may actually benefit Michigan because they like to focus on the season and not recruiting.  There will still be 2-3 months between the end of his season and when he enrolls or signs.

Lou MacAdoo

September 19th, 2016 at 4:50 PM ^

I like this feature. Thanks! It's really frustrating when Ohio State comes up to Michigan and takes one of our recruits like Damon Webb and Mike Weber. I'd love to see Harbaugh start doing that to them occasionally



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Blue in PA

September 19th, 2016 at 4:58 PM ^

I love the way Jim is playing his true freshman.  That has to be a HUGE recruiting tool to some of these top HS players.  

Assuming more of them are Gary & Peppers recruits rather than Green and Cissoko, they probably won't be around for 4 or 5 years, so why not?  

 

trueblueintexas

September 19th, 2016 at 9:11 PM ^

I'm sure that article was informative. "Biff Poggi does something at Michigan. Role isn't small, role isn't big. May be involved in recruiting, scouting, game planning, teaching, mentoring, game day management...may not. Probably attacks each day with enthusiasm uknown to mankind and has it better than us. Father of Henry who plays fullback on football team. #19 on the field, #1 in his Dad's heart."

TrueBlue2003

September 19th, 2016 at 6:54 PM ^

Their two highest ranked players in 2015, two of their three top 50 guys in 2016 and their highest ranked player in the 2017 class were from OH so their best players aren't necessarily from out-of-state.  Five of their seventeen four stars were from OH in 2016.  Three of their other four stars were from non-OH Midwest (IL, IN and MI) with four other four stars coming from the B1G footprint (NJ, MD) so that class wasn't nearly as national as the perception. Not even a single player from west of the Mississippi. The one place outside of the B1G footprint Urban has done very well in over the past four years is FL for obvious reasons.

This year's class has an unusual number of elites from Las Vegas and one from CA, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule compared to what they've been successful with the past few years. He's been very heavy on OH, FL and Midwest/Mid-Atlantic during his tenure.

HarleyMarlboro

September 19th, 2016 at 6:20 PM ^

So it doesn't look like Urbz is going to burn out after 3-4 years like so many of us though (hoped), so it's going to take a little time to catch Ohio State in recruiting.  Fortunately, we have the perfect coach for UM, combined with some good wins.  Recruiting will catch up soon.

JTGoBlue

September 19th, 2016 at 7:09 PM ^

Ohio State's class is a monster. Wow. Not sure if Michigan can get to that point with admissions standards, etc. Michigan will have to out coach/out hustle OSU to win for the foreseeable future.



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schreibee

September 19th, 2016 at 11:04 PM ^

I am totally fine with out coaching & out hustling osu on an annual basis into perpetuity even if for some reason (such as disparate levels of talent in the two states, lack of another P5 team in their state) they continue to out-recruit us.

I, for one, believe that if we out coach/out hustle them, we will win our share of games and then some, whatever the crootin sites may say...

BlueinLansing

September 19th, 2016 at 8:52 PM ^

and grew up in Ohio you likely have almost zero memory of Michigan ever being a good consistent year after year threat to Ohio State.  That is the ugly truth.

If you are a high school prospect, you have no memory at all of what Michigan used to be.

schreibee

September 19th, 2016 at 11:26 PM ^

It's sad that your attitude is so very quaint.... it really would be better if even highly sought after young men with rare and exceptional gifts stuck by the same 19th century code of ethics you and I guide ourselves by!

Ah well, I guess some call it progress.... but not all change is really progress, is it?

fax75071 (not verified)

September 20th, 2016 at 12:08 PM ^

ole . you think Benjamin `s postlng is super, last tuesday I bought a brand new Ford when I got my check for $6329 this last 5 weeks and-over, ten thousand lass-month . this is really my favourite job I've ever done . I actually started three months/ago and straight away made over $70... per hour . read the article