Maybe this just sour grapes, but Pryor can't throw a lick in my estimation. Yes, he burned us because he lofted a few deep balls. But just watch that guy try to throw a 10-yard out. In the dirt, every time. He'll get better as it seems to purely be mechanics (set your damn feet and stop leaning back away from contact), but he didn't show me much more than Sheridan in the throwing department. Unfortunately there's a slight difference in running ability.
he ducked out of bounds on runs, especially when there was a significant amount of yardage (or even a first down) to be made. Is he that afraid of contact?
Even the Fox announcers were knocking him for that throughout the game. I presume that he was taught somewhere along to way to duck out of bounds so as to protect his body, but I remember at least two times during the game when he could have gotten first downs by taking contact, yet he stepped out early.
Those long throws were more our secondary (once again) not knowing what to do. Or how to tackle.
he'll be a monster in the near future. He's a season away from playing slow HS kids. This kid will haunt Michigan like a Troy Smith rerun if he improves his throwing mechanics. The running out of bounds may have been big game jitters?
This is a little OT but I really did not know that TOUS fans were so fed up with Tressel. check it out
Intelligence has never been the Ohio State fan base's strong suit, but who in the world would be dumb enough to fire a coach that (a) literally reversed the decade-long trend of their team consistently losing to their rival, (b) won a national championship in his second year, (d) consistently brings in top-10 to top-5 recruiting classes every year, (e) has consistently brought in at least one number-one ranked positional player in most of his recruiting classes, and (f) is likely going to finish this recruiting season with the #1 class in the nation ?
I mean, yeah, you got blown out in one game this year and lost two other close ones. Big deal. It's embarrassing, but who are they gonna bring in?
And isn't the whole premise of that second website that these poor showings will hurt their recruiting? Sure hasn't looked like it so far, unfortunately.
He's a freshman. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a Heisman candidate in a couple years.
I hope he realized this isn't High School anymore lol, if not he will next November thats for sure!!
Pryor's play as WR was what was really impressive in this game. He brought down that fade pass very nicely. Overall, he's still a true freshman, so he'll improve over time, which doesn't bode well for us.
are a funny thing.
His passing has a long way to go, but he has had better showings than the one tonight. Like MMB 82 I was more surprised by how quickly he was ducking out of bounds on a lot of his runs; he's not exactly what you'd call an inspiring performer, but hey, he's a freshman.
Like a golf swing, you can practice until you think you've got it. But you have to be able to hit it without thinking about it.
(is there anyone interested in a used set of Spaulding clubs? only slightly twisted)
you guys realize he's a freshman and will improve his poise in the pocket.
He throws better than Threet and Sheridan. The one thing I love about TP is his ability to stiff arm. It's beautiful.
No. He does not throw better than Threet, and he's on a 10X better team. Sheridan, yea, Threet, no...TP, for all the hype, throws ducks quite frequently at this point in his short career.
Threet throws mostly ducks too. They are about equal.
Pryor is as good a runner as V. Young and he's definitely going to get better as a passer, but he's not a better passer than Threet right now. He has no vision whatsoever for throws and his accuarcy makes Threet look like Montana. Right now he can throw deep and he can hit a bootleg when he can see his receivers other than that he is useless in the passing game(Easy money betting under his 162yds passing total yesterday). Because of his insane running ability he will face very friendly pass coverages and eventually like Young he will hit those wide open guys, but as for the pros should be same story as Vick and Young.
I see now why he didn't want to come to Michigan I think he hates the whole running qb thing and he doesn't look like a fan of much contact. With his running ability he should have been Pat White in this game and been running all game. When he ran the option he was getting huge chunks at a time and he could have turned up 3 or 4 scrambles for huge yardage but just stepped out of bounds like he was P. Manning. I think someone above said it best...not very inspirational play. He needed to let it all out.
He wasn't the omg end all be all of QBs, and a lot of that has to do with his off the field issues anyway, but the guy wasn't anywhere near a bust in terms of his on the field performance. He did lead Atlanta to a win over GB, at Lambeau, in the playoffs if you remember more than the past 6 months.
Boren will be blocking for Pryor now - think Big Will, Death Roh, Martin, Lalota etc will have some motivation to do some hitting next November? Can't wait. . . .
I never said the word bust. I don't think Young is done at QB either if he gets his head screwed on. These guys can be very effective during a NFL season, but I think that these guys have a ceiling and that ceiling is when they run into a top NFL defense they are shut down because they can't read coverages or make the tough throws. A lot of guys can't make the tough throws. Harrington was the same he couldn't anticipate the openings in the zones. If in the right system or with the Ravens D they might be able to do it, but I think eventually the K. Stewarts, R. Cunninghams, Vick's, Crouch etc.. can't reach the top in the NFL. It's an intangible I can't explain it's like porn you know it when you see it. People may say what about Mcnabb I thought he could do it. When I saw him against Mich he made plays with his feet as well as his arm. Troy Smith was able to do similar things as well I thought. I don't see it with Pryor, but he's still young.
Crouch was never really considered to be a pro quarterback prospect. If I remember correctly, he spent college running. Troy Smith was too small; Pryor is, what, 6'5"? 6'6"? That won't be a problem. I don't hate him, just like I didn't hate Troy Smith. They're both impressive athletes and deserve all the accolades they get. Pryor is 18 years old; he's playing against 22-year-old men. If you don't think that's impressive, then I'm afraid of the level of expectations that will undoubtedly follow Tate Forcier when he gets here. If you're willing to think Tate is the Messiah, and discount his first year if he isn't, then cut Pryor some slack. He's a ridiculously talented athlete and he'll be causing huge amounts of trouble for Michigan for two or three years to come.
As much as I hate the guy (purely for being a Buckeye) I think we have to realize that even with the poor mechanics he led the big ten in pass efficiency as a TRUE FRESHMAN at 152.1
For comparison (via mgoblue.com)
I would have given my left nut for a guy with poor mechanics and a 130+ rating this year.
I don't see how that could be correct. Isn't his completion percentage like 40?
No. It's like 65%. And by "like 65%," I mean it "actually is 65%."
Hell, he completed almost 78% of his passes in the USC game. In fact, the only sub-60% completion game he has was against us, and that was around 38%, which would probably explain why so many M fans have the skewed perception about Pryor's abilities as a passer.
Granted, his numbers probably have a lot to do with the receivers making circus catches, but this "Pryor can't pass" meme needs to stop.
I didn't say he couldn't pass. I agree about the meme, and defended his arm (strength)in another of the 50 threads about this. I merely "questioned" that stat. I was wrong, should have checked first. Damn.
and he will torture us for 3 more years. Just saying the reason his pass efficiency was so high is that he would throw like 13 times a game and then when they have 9 in the box he can lob up a bomb and let Robiskie make a play. That's good football, but there is a reason they brought Boekman into throw last night. Pryor can't read a d or complete a hitch route. Henne as a true fresh was better, but he also had the alley oop to Braylon to bail him out. V. Young was the same as Pryor.. I think he blows as a passer, but he was awesome as a runner and won the NC nothing wrong with that... sign me up. Pryor looks on the same path..minus the pussing out of bounds like Franco Harris...I can go old school Dex :-)
Vince Young wasn't a terrible QB. . .he passed for 267 yards in that Rose Bowl game. It's not like he's the myth of the stereotypical "running quarterback" "athlete" "can't really throw". He was a great quarterback.
I said V. Young was awesome but he wasn't a great passer. The reason he threw for 267 was they had 11 guys trying to tackle him. Put him in Texas Tech offense and he is 3rd string
The tools are there. More experience, seasoning and maturity will go a long way to determine if he's going to be great, very good, or a could've-been.
So this terrific athlete chooses against Michigan because he wanted a establish himself as a throw-first pro prospect in a more pro-style offense. So he goes to OSU. We see that he runs as often as he passes, and even gets placed at wideout. We see that he is really great as a runner and actually pretty great as a receiver. He has not improved much this year as a passer, but they have really used his amazing athletic skills effectively all over the field. So remind me again why he went to OSU over Michigan? In my opinion - he would be the same QB in our offense as he will be in theirs. Unfortunately, he's in their's and he will torture us a bit.
He has freakish athletic ability. When he runs it looks effortless, but the running out of bounds early thing was weird. I concur, though. A lot of his passes have looked bad. Everyone is right when they say he'll only improve and iron out his mechanics, so yes, I'm frightened about the future.
I was at the Buffalo WW when McCoy scrambled for the touchdown and a cheer erupts and some guy goes "TATE FORCIER BABY!"
We can only pray.
To me he still hasn't embraced the fact he needs to run to be effective he is trying to be a pocket passer and it's not working their offense blew this year. If they would have just run his ass into the ground ala Pat White they probably would have beat Penn St. or he would have been injured by now 1 of the 2. He was so impressive running last night escaping tackles, but he refused to take on tacklers and running out of bounds before the 1st down was horrible.
Way to go Pryor, having fun running alot and playing WR at OSU? I'm sure Tressel is really helping you develop as an NFL QB much better than RR would have. Pfft.
Pryor strikes me a lot like Michael Vick and and V. Young (I know, obvious), but also a good deal like old Tommy Fraizer at Nebraska. He's so fast, so athletic that he can make plays against virtually defense. Yet, if you stick him in the pocket you can tell he simply doesn't yet have the mechanics to throw that 5-10 yard passes that McCoy did all night. Even during the big Pryor recruiting buzz, I used to post all over the Freep forums that his throwing motion really scared me. Sure, he has a cannon, but so did Reggie Ball at GT, and that guy couldn't complete a short pass to save his life. The problem with playing at OSU, though, will be that Tressel probably won't teach him to be a better quarterback, instead allowing him to use his athleticism to dominate most of the teams in the Big 10. I still think he is supremely talented, and I don't blame him for going to OSU over other schools, but I think most OSU faithful are worried this kid will be nothing more than an evolutionary Juice Williams when it is all said and done.
Yeah, um, Troy Smith got a lot better as a passer while he was at OSU, so if Pryor doesn't improve as a passer I wouldn't really blame OSU's coaches. It's all about how much Pryor wants to work, and how well he takes coaching. The pure physical tools are undeniable.
I still question how much Tressel did to make Smith a better QB. The guy had decent mechanics coming out of high school, while Pryor has this goofy motion that is going to take some time to change. Just because a guy had better stats as he grew in a program doesn't necessarily reflect highly upon the coach - oftentimes the players simply grew physically, became more comfortable in the offense, and in the case of OSU played with great teammates. Plus, I can't think of another QB from OSU during the Tressel era that really improved over the years - Krenzel was always a pretty accurate but weak-armed QB, and the same with Boeckman. Plus, none of them made the transition to the pros, and the jury is still out on Smith. My point is that if I had a guy who could outrun anyone else on the other team, I wouldn't waste my time trying to teach him passing progression and check downs - I would let him exploit his athleticism and win me football games. Tressel needs to start winning some big games before the natives get restless, and his best chance of getting those victories will be with Pryor running around and throwing bombs when the defense cheats up. That will make Pryor a great college QB, but I'm not sure that he will improve as an overall, multi-faceted QB.
And to show I'm not a complete UM homer, I don't think Carr was a great teacher of QBs. Guys like Henne, Navarre, etc. never seemed to get fundamentally better as QBs from freshman to senior year. Just look at Henne's numbers year-by-year (60% completion, ~20 TDs, ~10 INTs). Solid numbers, but he never made that "Leap" that everyone envisioned.
1) You cant only look at stats when determining if he made the "leap" when the team changes drastically from year to year.
2) Carr didn't coach QBs, Loeffler coached Navarre and Henne. Also, if you don't think Navarre got better statistically and fundamentally from his freshman-senior year, you are absolutely mad (no offense). He went from a guy only Northwestern offered as a QB, where most others offered as a Defensive End(!), to a guy that somehow got drafted in the NFL and stuck around for a year or two.
1. I wouldn't just look at stats - I made the point that oftentimes guys get better because of the players around them, and that obviously means they may look better or worse than they are based on the talent surrounding them. With Henne and Navarre, though, I never felt like they were that much better year in and year out. Navarre improved during his time at UM, but I think he peaked toward the end of his junior year, and I'm not sure how much of that was coaching. Same with Henne - though I will accept that his injuries during the senior year probably hindered his growth a bit. I still argue, though, that he was essentially the same player he was as a freshman in terms of in-game playing - he was just really, really good as a freshman.
2. Then the onus falls on the QB coach, and that means whoever OSU uses as the QB coach hasn't been that solid at improving their QBs. I am not trying to knock Carr - I still think he is one of the most underrated coaches in recent memory. I just question how good he and Tressel (and by extension their staffs) are at developing top-line QBs.
John Boy was pretty lights out in 03, the Oregon loss was far more on the special teams. The Iowa game wasn't great but we did blow a lead there and it wasn't all on him.
It didn't help that Carr benched Braylon Edwards for significant portions of both games because he and Braylon weren't "on the same page."
Not true. Braylon was benched for a little bit of the opening game and that was it.
He wasn't bad in '03, but he also had Doak Walker-winner Perry in the backfield, along with a post-leap Braylon and Avant. I remember far too many games that season (my last year at UM) watching John zero in on Braylon at the snap and forcing balls to him. I know Braylon was the best on the team, but it felt like the same thing he did in '01 with Walker - lock in on one guy and chuck away. That's why I liked him the most in '02 - he lost the Walker blanket, and he threw around to everyone.
We also had two blocked punts in the Iowa game. That was when Boccher decided coaching was not for him.
Rugby Punt Festival 03....I had blocked that out. Thanks.
The annoying thing about that game is that now tons of Michigan fans assume the rugby punt is a dumb strategy. It works fine for plenty of teams. We just apparently didn't know how to block for it.
I think most OSU faithful are worried this kid will be nothing more than an evolutionary Juice Williams when it is all said and done.
Big 10 QB Ratings:
1. Terrelle Pryor 145.6
2. Darryl Clark 143.4
3. Juice Williams 138.1
Big 10 yards/game:
1. Juice Williams 264.4
Big 10 yards/attempt:
1. Juice Williams 8.3
2. Darryl Clark 8.1
3. Terrelle Pryor
Juice led the Big 10 in total yards passing, total yards, and yards per attempt. He was also the 3rd most efficient passer in the conference. If Terrelle Pryor became "the evolutionary Juice Williams", most would take it.
Juice also led the B10 in INTs with 16, and was middle-of-the-pack in terms of Comp % - 57.5%. He did have a large number of attempts for the Big 10, but nationally there were a number of QBs with more passes attempts and better comp %.
1. Furthermore, QB rating in college is, in my opinion, pretty useless in determining how good a QB is. Case in point - Juice may be #3 in the conference, but Dustin Sherer of Wisconsin is #5, with a sparking 6-5 TD/INT ratio and a comp % of 54%. Heck, Heisman Trophy front-runner Curtis Painter had a 118.05! The math behind the number, while sound in theory, rewards guys who throw a few bombs every game and doesn't penalize enough for INTs. Anyone who watched Juice this season knows that while her certainly has a decent arm, the accuracy is just not there.
2. Yards per game is great way for measuring how much offense a QB generates for his team, but it has practically nothing to do with accuracy of the QB, which was the point of my post. Juice led the B10 in rushing by a QB, and was always a threat to make plays with his legs. Rarely, though, did he scan the field while in the pocket - that's just not his game. He doesn't need to be accurate to produce yardage.
3. That is pretty impressive, I will give you that, but I don't know how much of that was due to having two deep-ball threats (Cumberland and Benn) at his disposal.
In summation, I'm not trying to knock Juice or Pryor as football players - I just wonder about how accurate they will be as QBs, and how will OSU fans enjoy watching it. They are good players, but players like Juice are also teases - you keep hoping that they'll get better/more accurate, but in the end they'll suck you in with some big games when the passing gets going, but far too often they'll throw that killer pick or go 10-27 against defenses that force them to throw.
Disagree wholeheartedly. Passer rating is primarily based on yards per attempt, which is the simplest and best way to measure a QB's effectiveness. When the QB threw a pass, how many yards did the team gain, on average? A guy like Painter might complete a ton of passes, but how many yards was Purdue actually gaining from them? It's not hard to rack up a good completion percentage when you're just throwing little 3-yard curls over and over, but it's not the best way to move the ball. Guys like Pryor and Williams went deep a lot more often, and while that sometimes backfired, it also paid off more. (Keep in mind, too, that not all INTs are necessarily equal in damage. An INT on a deep ball is functionally a punt.)
Good points, but what about YAC from the receiver? A QB who throws a pass out to the RB in the flats who then runs for 30 yards didn't do a whole heck of lot, yet has a great YPA.
Also, let's say a guy throws three passes - the first is a 30 yard bomb for a TD, the next an incomplete, and the third a pick. According to the college formula for QB rating, that player has a QB rating of about 160. Yet, the QB only completed one positive play. The problem I have with QB rating is that it doesn't punish enough for bad decisions or a mediocre completion rate. The big numbers come from TDs and YPA, which is effectively the same way I plan Madden.
With Pryor, we don't have a large enough sample size to really determine how accurate he will be, especially against good defenses. He's only thrown about 160 passes in college, and the offense is still new to him. I'm certainly not going to say that he won't be an accurate QB in the future - the jury's still out with him.
I look at completion %, TD-INT ratio, and when possible what types of passes the QB threw (10-yard outs are different than screens in terms of accuracy - despite our struggles this year to the contrary) and the YAC of the receiver. Since that is pretty rare to have all that info, comp % and TD-INT is enough for me.
Everyone keeps acting like I'm knocking Juice Williams or Pryor and claiming the guys are horrible QBs. Trust me, I would be ecstatic if they were lining up behind center for UM next season. My whole point is that I don't see either of them being remarkably accurate QBs (Pryor has more tools, though, and can certainly get to being an accurate QB), and that may limit their team's ceilings in the future. Could Pryor still lead this team to a MNC and have a ~60% completion %? Sure. But looking back at recent MNCs, a common theme is that they tend to have QBs with high completion percentage (outside of LSU last year and OSU with Krenzel, who were sub 64% passers but whose teams relied quite heavily on defense to win games). Heck, maybe that's all OSU needs - a guy to keep the chains moving with runs and a dominant D.
I was more pointing out that Juice Williams was the best QB in the Big 10 this year (not passer - that would be Darryl Clark - but QB. His running, IMO, swings it in his favor), as a Junior, and showed an appreciable step forward between his Sophomore year and his Junior year - largely without the benefit of any sort of running game outside of himself. Let's not forget he was a five-star QB recruit himself. I would give my left nut to have Tate, as a Junior, replicate Juice's season.
I still think YPA is the best measure. It's not perfect, as you point out, but I like it better than completion percentage, as it balances completion percentage with the types of passes the QB is making.
TD's are a largely irrelevant stat from a QB - they're entirely context dependent and there is no unique ability to throw a TD that exists outside of the ability to throw a 15 yards.
I'll agree that YPA is useful, but I just prefer Comp % + TD-INT with an appropriate sample size. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I think Clark and Juice for 1 and 1A in terms of the best QBs in the conference, and Juice was absolutely terrifying when he took off with the ball. I guess I just caught his bad games, when he was throwing absolute ducks down the field and didn't have the short-passing game going very much. Plus, and this is completely subjective, I've always hated the little "flick"-style movement guys like VY, Pryor, and Juice use when throwing the ball. It always looks inaccurate to me, but it must work for them.
Pryor was blessed with a veteran receiving corp and a weak conference IMO. There's no doubting his athleticism, but look at the UM/OSU game this year as a readily available example. He already had a season in the offense and threw 120 yds in a 42-7 blowout. However, Hartline and Sanzenbacher each had catches of 53 and 35 yds. So 88 of the 120 came on two plays. That leaves 32 yds for the rest of the game.
Well, sure - when you remove a player's longest plays, their average per play drops precipitously. If you remove the fact that OSU had 210 rushing yards on 3 runs against us, they carried 42 times for 57 yards. Does that mean they didn't succeed?
I understand that often-times, there is little difference between a 40 yard run and an 80 yard run aside from how far away from the endzone the play started, but still.
No, I would say 42-7 is successful :) I'm just saying he didn't shred Michigan the whole game. Of course, he didn't really need to either.
He is incredibly athletic (obviously) but he is human. The 2008 Michigan defense did hold him to 18 yards on the ground and 120 through the air. A lot of the big plays were due to his veteran (and NFL bound) teammates.
In spite of the score I'm not too discouraged...yet.
I generally agree with this sentiment...all of it. (This is in response to bronxblue's 3 points).
Can someone tell me where these "Pryor can't throw" and "Pryor only completes 40% of his passes" memes got started? 'Cuz they need to go away. The dude completed about 65% of his passes this year, as a freshman. Believe me, I wish the guy were terrible, but he's not, so let's stop pretending.
If he really does hate contact (which is hope is true based on what I saw last night), then he's obviously not going to be able to maximize his potential as a dual-threat guy, but this "not a good passer" stuff is nonsense.
where he seemed to lack the ability to read a defense. The speed and timing of a college level passing game was beyond him for the most part. I'm going to guess that's not something that just cropped up.
Everybody has bad games. Even with how badly he played last night, his completion percentage on the year is still ridiculous.
Plus last night every other pass was in the dirt.
Good point, I mean, we should just ignore the 65% completion average for the other 12 games of the season just because of that.
With an offensive line that was almost as patchwork as ours for the first 10 or so games no less.
but it's hard to envision a scenario where one could go from adequately reading defenses and throwing passes to inept.
You asked where these "Pryor can't throw" memes got started.
I think a lot of it comes from the fact that he rarely attempts more than 10-15 passes a game, most of his passes are either short dump-offs or long bombs, and his mechanics looks pretty bad out there at times. I agree that he has all the tools to be an accurate QB, but he is going to have to work hard to be a truly accurate passer in college. Plus, I still think people remember Vince Young, who had similar completion percentages in college (~59% as a first-year player, up to 65% when he graduated), but never looked overwhelmingly accurate during a game and has looked lost at times in the NFL. I agree, though, that he is going to be tough on UM for years.
As far as the arm strength, he did throw a bomb against us in the 2nd quarter, it was in the air from the defensive 40 to the offensive 15, hit Robiskie in stride for a touchdown.
that's pretty automatic.
I'm not sure what you mean by automatic. I'm just referencing one example I'm sure most of us have seen that suggests he does have some arm strength. I make no reference to consistency.
so it's good that he's got that in the arsenal, but there are quite a lot of QBs who can make that throw.
i wasn't trying to dispute you one way or another in any case.
Yeah, I wasn't sure if you were saying "oh yeah, one throw proves he's consistent" in a slightly sarcastic way. but fair enough.
TP is not a passer. Hes a running qb, thats it. Maybe he knew that and went to a school who traditionally passes it so he can get better( thats what he said he was doing ). If pryor had someone of a decent arm he wud be next vince young. He runs like vince, but is pretty bad at throwing. Your not gonna be a horrible passer to a great passer. Its not gonna happen. he will never be an elite passer.
Id rather have tate