Yahoo is featuring an article, originally printed for Forbes, listing the top U.S. colleges. UoM is ranked fourth in state and 200th overall. A Univeristy of Ohio professor economist helped complile the rankings. Schools such as Kalmazoo College, Albion, and Hilldale come in ahead of UoM. Didn't a recent Brittish publication list UoM among the top 10 universities in the world?
OT: WTF Forbes College Rankings
ranking criteria are different. No one doubts UM is a premier institution.
However, K College is a very well respected school, as are the others listed.
Albion is not all that well-respected. Certainly nowhere near Michigan. I go to K College and I would consider it the second-best school in the state. I mean, depending on criteria, maybe it's better than Michigan. But, fourth in the state. . .meh.
Oh boy, this thread could get messy...
Wow. Forbes is waaaay off the mark on this one, not that it matters. We all know how good Michigan is academically.
What exactly was being ranked? This post is stunningly scant on details.
Actually, thanks to Granholm, OCC might start offering 4 year degrees. U of M may have some competition. Someone contact Forbes to let them know that they should move OCC to 4th in state.
What is OCC?
Oakland Community College?
Community colleges should offer 4 year degrees, they do in Canada.
i think the point of a comm college is to prepare for a transfer to a 4 year institution.
having a 4 year program at a comm college would probably divert the focus of getting students to an established institution.
i wonder if there are case studies on this stuff cause it would be real tough management problem in terms of separation of programs at a manageable cost. yea canada does it, but canada also is not a real country.
dont ask me how i know this cause I hate my job
That's not the actual point of a community college. There are some (like Henry Ford CC in Dearborn) who are almost exclusively devoted to that purpose, but others (like Schoolcraft College in Livonia) are focused on providing career training.
Agree with the above and to add, in Canada community colleges is a place you can get training for a new career through certificate and associate programs. I'm currently doing field work in Thompson Manitoba, population somewhere around 15000 people. It's far to small for a 4 year university but the local community college does wonders for the workforce.
Canadian community college graduates (in Ontario, anyway) start off making more than university graduates because they're more practically prepared. I work with a number of people who went to colleges and then finished their degrees later... I'm really extremely impressed with what they tell me of the college system.
are you guys talking about having 4 year degrees such as industrial engineering, mathematics, psychology...(what i meant)
or turning a career training program into a 4 year degree?(possibly what you meant)
I was talking about a select amount of 4 year programs in fields like Nursing, Business and Management that would help people in need of cheaper solutions for career advancement. In the current system, these people are driven to for profit schools who take advantage of them financially.
columbus. ahhh zinggg.
Not down with OCC
every magazine has their own criteria.
they might think that UM might not be worth $11k/ per year (in-state) for the quality of education you receive.
they might weigh teacher/student ratio more heavily, therefore smaller schools might have an advantage.
maybe they don't take research facilities, endowment, alumni and kick-ass helmets into consideration.
Yes, the rankings take class size, tuition and student satisfaction into account. The things we're traditionally known for aren't all that impressive in these rankings.
Sorry, had to give a shout out to my alma mater.
Whatever the criteria, Michigan should be in the Top 50 (at the very least).
Props for being a West Point graduate. Guy I went to high school with went to West Point; that is some serious stuff.
article here for those that care
The methodology makes a lot of sense.
I like your Nick Sheridan-sad-at-the-world avatar more than your recent Merry-Go-Round of selections.
Nick will return when he is needed. Gaga is here as a symbol of hope for the coming year... she represents what we all hope for this team: success in the face of limited talent.
As a bonus, she is a hermaphrodite.
So he does have lady parts? Huh. Who knew?
And all night dance parties!
"Our college rankings are based on five criteria: graduation rate (how good a college is at helping its students finish on time); the number of national and global awards won by students and faculty; students' satisfaction with their instructors; average debt upon graduation; and postgraduate vocational success as measured by a recent graduate's average salary and alumni achievement. We prize the undergraduate experience and how well prepared students are for the real world rather than focusing on inputs such as acceptance rates and test scores."
However, I don't like it...
If you're just ranking undergrad stuff (and using their criteria) it's probably about right. As a Residential College grad from UM I'd have to say that the classes I took in the LS&A were really hit or miss. My friends who were already specializing like the Flexies and engineers were all pretty happy but I think fellow RC'er Dhani Jones knew what he was doing.
Oy. There's where being the most expensive public university in the country (as of a couple years ago, at least) hurts.
The methodology is utterly laughable. 25% is based on internet professor ratings from RateMyProfessor. Seriously.
A small school in Appleton by where a friend of mine used to live is ranked #47. It's alright, but really nothing of a school -- of all the colleges in the US, it's definitely one of them. According to Forbes, it's better than Duke, G'town, Hopkins, Emory, etc.
But it's not saying "BEST ACADEMIC SCHOOL IN THE US"... it's the best school for students, thus satisfaction and small class sizes are more important than "Hey, nobody gets in unless they 32 on the ACT!"
Brodie's point stands as a good one, but still, even I can't help but laugh at RateMyProfessor.com as part of the ranking schema.
OMG YES MY SPANISH TEACHER HAS A CHILE PEPPER THAT MEANS SHE'S HOT YES
is kinda important to me as a student but shouldnt be a factor ... it is really only the last tie breaker in picking a class ... also i couldnt care less if my prof is hot or not, that is what after class is for
Michigan loses because of the tuition in-state and out-of-state and because of class size. Period.
Nobody can argue the quality of education you receive at M, since it's renowned around the world.
It seems Forbes misnamed their rankings slightly. That list leaves off a vast range of attributes for colleges that a majority of prospects find important; to sum it up, it should probably be called the "Where Can I go and Get a Decent Education for Cheap?" rankings.
the 4 yr thing obviously favors private schools ... honestly i prefer to take 9 semesters cause im in no hurry to leave aa ... we are #26 publicly ... im sry we r better than such great institutions such as new mexico state .... this list is biased and bull shit
Biased? No. It's just not calculating the quality of the education or student body. Michigan costs a lot more than the education is worth, that hurts us in any ranking that is trying to determine the best college for students. The truth is, your degree from New Mexico State will qualify you for all the same jobs your Michigan degree will... and unless you're extremely well networked (and let's face it, most aren't) it will open a lot of the same doors. For thousands less.
for one thing it records the military academies as having no cost which bumps them way up the list ... this is false, the military academies make you risk the ultimate cost of dieing for our country (much respect to our brave men and women who do it, my point is there possible cost is a million times greater than the money i will ever pay to michigan) .... second it is clearly biased to smaller schools cause it automatically assumes smaller classes as always being better (they normally are but u cant just assume it) ... it fails to take in quality of education .... and finally u are wrong about nmsu ... i choose it specifically because i have half my family in that state and it isnt even the best school in the state, nmu is IMO ... also the state of new mexico pays for the education of i think 3.0 and higher students who attend in state pub schools and maintain there grades (this was at least current as of 2ish yrs ago) so the cost can be easily manipulated
Well there is a chance you'll die, but the fact is the death rate of officers in Iraq is less than a fourth of that for enlisted men. So the odds of you dying are pretty slim. Nevertheless, I respect all those who serve in every capacity.
I understand what you're saying in the second point, but I disagree that this is "bias". It's like asking what the best pizza place in Ann Arbor is for someone with insomnia. Is it biased toward Pizza House? I guess you could argue for both sides.
That's kind of the point. It doesn't need to be the best school to be the best school for a student. I imagine NMSU is cheap, ($2,679 and $7,767 for in state and out of state, respectively) fairly small (16,000-some total students) and will provide you with a degree that will get you where you need to go. Compare with Michigan where the cost is extremely high ($6,476 and $18,600 instate and out in LSA) and where there's are 41,000 other students. They claim to look at the jobs of graduates, too. Michigan is at a huge disadvantage here. 41,000 graduates go on to do everything from HIGH POWERED LAWYER RAWR to driving trucks. I know more people who are on the lower end of that totem poll than the higher end. At NMSU, the odds of a graduate becoming very successful are increased by the lower enrollment.
I see your point, but Kalamazoo and Hillsdale are private institutions. The cost of tuition at K is $28,000 a year, almost on par with out of state Michigan. Even an upper level engineer from Michigan pays only around $15,000 tuition at U of M. If we average out the in state and out of state tuition (2:1 ratio), we come up with an average tuition less than that of Kalamazoo, which should lead to smaller amounts of average debt.
Secondly, I would argue that there is no way of comparing Michigan and a small private school like Kalamazoo or relatively unrecognized public like NMSU. Want an engineering or business degree? Too bad. Want tons of companies to go to your career fairs? Not happening.
I mean, even in this crap economy, almost every single Michigan engineer I know in my graduating class has either (1) found a good job or (2) gotten into a good grad school. Our job placement was among the best in a good economy, and the differences will probably become much clearer in a bad one. I think it's much better to graduate deeper in debt but with a good secure job and a degree from a name brand institution than graduating with less debt, no job, and a degree from a college 95% of America hasn't ever heard of.
This was exactly the point I was about to make. Plus, I don't see the logic in pulling a post-graduate networking card in an argument against Michigan. I'm pretty positive that an alumni base of 500,000 holding various degrees respected around the WORLD because of M's reputation trumps simply "having the same doors open" or "being qualified for the same job." Michigan offers so many opportunities to be *more* qualified than the competition around the country if a student chooses to take those opportunities up (UROP, one example).
I'm not saying that I don't respect places like NMSU. And I'm not denying that other places probably have opportunities to grant their students "more" qualification, but there's a reason Michigan is Michigan, and it's certainly not because we're the 200th best college in the United States.
EDIT: This might've seemed a bit snappy and I'm sorry if it did. I do respect the other colleges/institutions around the country, too.
That 500,000 strong alumni base has done nothing for me, it's done nothing for the vast majority of people who come out of LSA thinking we just earned a golden ticket only to find that the real world is merit based and nobody is going to hire you just because OMG YOU WENT TO MICHIGAN??? All the alumni in the world won't make my poli sci degree turn into a degree from business school. All the good academic rankings won't stop people from telling me I need an MBA to distinguish myself in this market.
Michigan is Michigan because the university only lets in the best people who apply. This is not a hard strategy.
Serious question, then, since you probably know more than I do about this; why do the majority of freshmen go into LSA, then? Michigan Engineering is serious stuff and the other colleges seem to do pretty well too. If a degree from LSA is hard to make use of, shouldn't the size of LSA be smaller by logic?
I'm sure other schools have the same college divisions within the university. This is something I've always been curious about (I'm enrolled for LSA this year, but I'm transferring to Engin for soph year).
why do the majority of freshmen go into LSA, then?
Because LSA offers the vast majority of the majors the school has available.
I graduated with a history degree - my MBA from DePaul's night school opened more doors for me than my Michigan degree.
This is like apples to apple pie, and you know it.
Well yeah - MBA =! (is that right?) bachelors. What I'm saying is that most LSA degrees don't differentiate you that far from the pack.
Yes, you have used the not equals to shorthand correctly, like a proper engineer.
Correct, but putting the ! after the = makes me read it as, "MBA = bachelors... NOT!"
Not that that's a bad thing...
The point is, though, just having that LSA bachelors from Michigan does not open that many more doors than the LSA bachelors from NMSU would. Certainly someone with an MBA from NMSU will be hired over the Michigan grad without one.
Yeah, and I'm not disputing that at all.
Well, it's not that surprising that having a graduate degree would make you more marketable than having just a bachelor's.
You know it's a joke when there are only 3 Ivies in the top 50.
Actually, having worked with Harvard, Dartmouth, Cornell, and Brown graduates, this might not be that far fetched.
Our students and faculty win many awards, and we have lots of cutting edge research going on at U of M.
Now, the issue might be that they're spread over the 24,000 undergraduate population, where at a small school, having 10 distinguished students out of a population of 500 may be a much higher rate than what we can manage at Michigan.
I don't even know why you, while drunk on Friday night, are reading Forbes OR MGoBlog, but you aren't allowed to drunk-post a complaint about academic rankings on weekends. Seeing "univeristy", "complile", "Hilldale", and "Brittish" next to "WTF Rankings?!" makes my head asplode, which is unacceptable on a non-football Saturday.
If you would like to post such things on a Sunday night, I would much appreciate it. My Mondays would thank you.
I've often read over the years that Hillsdale is kind of universally respected among the education community for their true liberal arts (focused on the "classics" of the western canon) education. However, Forbes may be biased because Hillsdale, like Forbes, has a conservative orientation.
These rankings are pretty funny. I think Carnegie Mellon got even more of the shaft than us - #267! And my personal favorite was Georgia Institute of Technology coming in at 420.