But overrated: Anyone who plays football at ND
OT: Most overrated/underrated players in sports
nope overrated is anyone who plays fooball at MSU
That's true. But we've been overrated a few times too like being #5 in 2008.
However I still say that 2007/2008 team, if healthy and focused, was a top 5 team.
Cap One bowl was a glimpse into a past that could have been.
maybe it is because he plays for the Texans, but the dude is just crazy good and I always think that he never gets much national media love.
YES... I love Andre J... he dominates every single matchup.. it's just a question of whether the QB can get him the ball or not honestly
Can I answer Tim Tebow for both?
I was thinking of using him but I couldn't figure out which one. So yeah.
how you can say that favre is overrated? is it annoying that ESPN follows everything he does durning the off season? yes! but that doesn't make him overrated. he holds every passing record there is and has won a super bowl, unlike marino.... plus when favre was on he was one of the funest QB's to watch.
overrated: rashed wallace
underrated: brian griese (yes its a reach)
I don't think anyone denies Favre's entertainment or greatness. The issue is his performance relative to his adulation. Great player, over-adored.
Also, one of the passing records he holds is career interceptions. And, when you apply career record to greatness, you can get faulty results. Vinny Testaverde is 8th on all-time TD's and nobody calls him one of the best ever.
On the fun to watch end of things, I'll admit that I enjoyed watching him. However, if I were a fan of one of his teams, I can imagine being antsy at not-knowing what he was going to do next that could cost the team.
Favre's reputation as a "big-game QB" was wildly overstated, especially at the end of his career with the Packers, when he was good for one backbreaking interception per playoff game. Favre was great in the mid-90s but steadily declined thereafter. For whatever reason, media types like Peter King and the Fox NFL announcers never wanted to recognize that decline. And dismissing his mistakes by saying "he's like a kid out there!" only made it worse.
Clearly, I'm on the Favre is overrated train.
Slinging guns = throwing interceptions
Sports are unwatchable of Fox. What a bunch of douche bags.
Thats a crazy combo of players. Your overrated leads nearly every statistical category for a QB and your underrated played part of his rookie season before getting hurt. I kind of agree, but just out of opinion, but not of fact. I would have to go Over: Roethlisberger; Under: Kelly Gregg.
I'm going to say some pretty blasphemous things and say Tebow is overrated. Now, I do believe that he is a VERY talented football player and he would be an amazing asset to any team he played on, but the way the media/fans/coaches portray him, he is overrated.
I understand that he has contributed to two national titles and also won the Heisman trophy (or Dixon lost it...hmm). However, the amount of talent surrounding him is astounding. The two national title-winning teams he's been on have had incredible defenses, but he doesn't play defense, and offense scores point, so of course he's attributed with "winning" them.
Urban Meyer has called him one of the greatest players of our era. I'm not sure how long of a time-frame he's talking about (Urban, are you talking the past 5 years, or 20 years?), but I would put Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Reggie Bush as better.
I don't know if I agree with you or with this statement I'm about to mention, but I think I've heard some say that Percy Harvin was more of an impact player than Tebow.
Tebow really is a great player, but he's portrayed as God's son by the media. So yeah, his exploits on the field are exaggerated. This article was mentioned last week:
Based solely on that Capital One bowl game, Harvin is way more dangerous than Tebow, alone. I don't have trouble believing it.
I would agree that Percy Harvin was more of an impact player than Tebow. When you're that wide open or running the underneath route, anyone can get the ball to Harvin and see their passing yards stats skyrocket.
The kid is an incredible playmaker.
That type of player + RR's offensive acumen = Multiple TDs, Rose Bowl berths, and ruined pants.
Overrated- Manny Ramirez
Underrated- Chris Osgood
He is an exceptional hitter, he would be a lock for the HOF if not for the steroids. Even in his advanced age he is still one of better hitters in the game. Now if you wanna say he's insane and hurts the locker room, or that he's a cheater, that's fine, but he is and has been a great hitter.
Offense is only one part of the game. He is also one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball and costs his teams quite a few runs when he is out there.
That a bad defender with a career OPS over 1.000 is more valuable than a good defender who is an average hitter. Noone thinks he is a good defender, but he is still one of the best right handed hitters in baseball history.
most overrated - running backs (most, MOST, I say, not all, are interchangeable).
Most underrated - offensive and defensive linemen. Without solid lines, you've got no shot.
Second most underrated - punter. A punter can change a game with field position.
As far as individuals:
Most overrated - Jimmy Clausen.
Most underrated - Josh Nesbitt.
Calvin Johnson guy is a feak 69 catches 12 TD's on a 0-16 team all these people can have Larry fitz, calvin hands down, the guy had freaking dan O throwing him the ball. come on lol
I personally think the base-stealing ability of a baseball player is one of the most underrated skills.
and to contribute to the thread topic:
Overrated- besides Tebow...Matt Stafford (huge mistake by the Lions, and I couldn't stand hearing the slurping noise Mel Kiper was making for the weeks leading up to the draft)
Underrated- Zach Robinson and Dez Bryant combo
Steals are nearly worthless. Yes, there have been times (Dave Roberts for the Sox vs. the Yankees) where a single steal is worth something. But in aggregate, they do extremely little to score runs.
that said that to increase your teams net chance of scoring a run, you have to be a 70 percent base stealer.
Break even is around 77% success rate, IIRC.
Stealing bases is actually overrated.
So too is batting average, RBI's, HR's and a pitchers ERA and Win-Loss record.
Those stats still have value as basic indicators of how a player has performed, they are just generally poor indicators of future performances. Except wins, which is too dependant upon your teammates. I guess RBIs are sort of in the same boat, but batters have so many more rbi chances than pitchers have chances for wins, I view rbis as a better stat.
No, they do not have much value when evaluating how a player has performed.
It is all about OBP, SLG, OPS, wOBA, wRAA, RC, VORP, tRA, FIP, xFIP, K/BB, BABIP, LOB %, HR/FB %, LD %, UZR, WPA and WAR in today's baseball world.
In that those stats are much better indicators of a players performance, because they take luck and other factors out of the equation. The problem is, those are still factors when they actually play the game. RBI's may be mainly context driven, but they still matter. A player who knocks in 120 RBIs has helped his team more than one who hit in 80 with the same OPS. Now, it might be the 2nd player is just as talented and was unlucky, and if you where evaluating them you would find they are equally qualified. But the first player was more valuable to his team, even if it was sheer luck. Those stats are useful when used in conjunction with others to tell the story of the season. I don't put much weight in them as predictive stats, but they are good for looking at what happened in past games.
RBI's are absurdly context-dependent. They're largely a measure of how many times a player has been up to bat with players in scoring position.
Overrated- Bill Parcels. Yeah I know he isn't a coach anymore but he never won a Super Bowl... I know he barely lost the one on the missed FG but he screwed up the Jets and the Dolphins haven't made the playoffs under his guidance yet.
Eric Magini is right up there too. How the heck can he expect to have success in Cleveland when he can't cut it in New York? Seriously, the guy should have stayed as an intern.
Underrated- Every member of the Patriots, maybe the best team/organization ever.
Bill Parcells did win the Super Bowl with the Giants...twice.
Bill Parcels. Yeah I know he isn't a coach anymore but he never won a Super Bowl
He won 2.
know he barely lost the one on the missed FG
He barely WON the Super Bowl with the missed FG.
but he screwed up the Jets and the Dolphins haven't made the playoffs under his guidance yet.
Before taking over the Jets, they had 4-28 in their previous 2 seasons. Parcells took them to 9-7 in his first year, and 12-4 in his second. They went 8-8 his final year. I'm not sure that's "screwing them up".
He has been the Executive VP of Operations for Dolphins for 1 year - last year. They went 11-5 last year, won their division, and did, indeed, make the playoffs.
In others words, literally nothing you said is true.
holy shit epic fail from Indiana Wolverine
its in his "Indiana" nature.
Hey, give credit where it's due: he did say Parcells isn't a coach anymore.
Overrated: Eli Manning
Underrated: Mark Buehrle
Is it possible for somebody to be underrated after pitching a perfect game?
Considering that he would be overrated if somebody considered him an ace... no.
overrated: cesc fabregas
underrated: iniesta (except he's getting more and more credit)
..I think after the Chelsea goal and assist to Eto'o in the EC Final, Iniesta may be "rated" properly now.
As far as futbol goes:
Overrated: Paul Scholes (now).
Underrated: Paul Scholes (when he played with Beckham, Butt, Keane and Giggs).
Over: Eli Manning, any closer in MLB, Sid Crosby
Under: Deangelo Williams, Matt Cain
All Time overrated: Emmitt Smith
Smith and Eddie George are overrated. I'm pretty sure they both averaged under 4 yards per carry in the NFL.
You couldn't be more right about Emmitt Smith. No way should he have broken Payton's record.
Barry, Payton, Dickerson, J.Brown, even Curtis Martin are more talented. I mean the guy ran behind an incredible probowl line, probowl FB and TE, not to mention a decent passing game to keep D's honest and he played well past his prime.
Worst of all, with the "All Time Rushing Leader" title came that job in broadcasting. He makes Michael Irvin sound intelligent and Magic Johnson sound eloquent.
.... is Bill Lambeer (yes, as a Pistons fan, this opiinion is highly biased).
All time #1 overrated player is Joe Namath.
All time underrated UM football player is Brian Griese. Overrated is David Terrell
1) College Career (as thought then)
-Griese: serviceable qb on a great team that depended on great defense. Offense based on the running game,he couldn't run, couldn't throw long, limited potential. Former Walk-on!
-Terrell- superstar WR who was the reason the passing game excelled (flashy and athletic freak)
2) College Careers (in hindsight):
-'97 Rose Bowl, Griese - Perfect example of a qb and ball-control, smart player, no flash - just successful.
-'00 Orange Bowl, Terrell - Terrell's success is 80% Brady (It was after this game, after Brady's rookie NFL year, and after watching '00 Orange Bowl on ESPNClassic that everyone (maybe just me) realized how great Brady made Terrell look.
3) NFL careers:
-Griese: No one expected Griese to succeed (for as long as he did/has) in the NFL as a starter (maybe as a career 2nd or 3rd string guy.
-Terrell: Epic failure as a first round draft pick - epic failure with his second chance in Denver
look at some of Terrell's highlights from the OB, two of his longer touchdowns were on short passes from Brady where Terrell broke a tackle or two and housed it. If not for some decent spin moves those are just short/medium range passes. As for the rest of that season, I don't know. Terrell made some amazing catches. Look at the Wisconsin game that year - Henson threw back across his body running out of bounds and Terrell beasted the jump ball in the end zone to take the lead late in the game.
I agree on the epic failure in the NFL for Terrell, but Griese is no Brady either, though he won us a championship, and for that he's got more respect than Brady to me, with Michigan fans.
I don't know about Griese. If anything, I think UM fans overrate Griese because of the championship. He had a terrific senior season, sure, but we went undefeated primarily because of the defense. Griese wasn't asked to make many big plays (the Rose Bowl being an exception). Give Brady, Navarre, Henne, Harbaugh et al. that same incredible D and I think they could have gone 12-0, too. He has had a much longer pro career than I would have expected, but as a college QB, I think we give him enough due.
As for Terrell, I have to disagree. I can't explain why he's been such a failure in the pros, but in college, he was a two-time 1,000-yard WR (and he played only three years). He flat-out produced.
I can't explain why he's been such a failure in the pros
Most of his coaches cited poor work ethic and a bad attitude.
Well yeah, I've heard about that. I don't know why he couldn't get his act together. But he never seemed to have any attitude/effort issues at Michigan. Credit the staff for that.
Over: David Beckham, Michelle Wie
Under: Tiger Woods, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg
i definately agree with you that David Beckham is the most overrated soccer player. yes his crosses are accurate but besides that and that all the little girls are in love with him he is a a classless player. His recent encounter with the 2 Galaxy fans shows how low of a player he is.
From a strict college football standpoint
Overrated - Jimmy Clausen - Seriously he is not the second coming.
Underrated - Greg Mathews - I expect a very good season from him if he can stay healthy.
underrated: Cornelius Buttcheeks
but, he is a mysterious figure, so, in some cases:
overrated: Cornelius Buttcheeks
Well, in his later career he was pretty overrated. Pretty much his entire tenure in Buffalo. But when he was with the Spiders he was pretty underrated.
Overrated - Tacopants. For all the receptions he had, he wont be missed this year.
Underrated - Sheridan = Death. He did help us retain the jug. Should be Sheridan = Comatoseonlifesupportinvegetativestateasclosetodyingwithoutbeingdead.
Overrated - Peyton Manning (unless he's posing shirtless next to a Lambroghini)
Underrated - Barry Sanders
Overrated: Ben Gordon. Sorry Pistons fans, you'll see what I mean in a few months. He's not a bad player, but certainly not a guy you want as a major piece of the puzzle.
Underrated: Placido Polanco. I'm a big White Sox fan and whenever the Sox play the Tigers, I'm completely impressed by all the little things Polanco does to help his team win games. I'm not sure how much attention he gets in Detroit, but from an outsider, he definitely seems extremely underrated.
i really hope that is not true for the sake of the Pistons team.
Best defensive 2B in the league, and up to this year one of the top 5 or so offensively. If he leaves at the end of the year it will be a sad day to be a tigers fan, although they do have an interesting replacement in sizemore.
Overrated - Drew Henson
Underrated - Red Berenson (he should have a statue that stands 100 feet tall astride State Street like the Colossus of Rhodes)
why come no one said Ron Dayne?
he routinely got 225 against IU, and Cal St Chico, but ran for 75-85 vs M, OSU, PSU, MSU. shocking to see him to nothing in the league.
Overrated: Tony Romo, Jacoby Ellsbury, Trevor Ariza
Underrated: Kevin Durant, Pavel Datsyuk
Overrated: Scotty Pippin
Underrated: Vladimir Konstantinov
overrated: deion sanders (football)
underrated: deion sanders (baseball)
Derek Jeter is far and away one of the most overrated defensive SS ever. How he ever won one Gold Glove (let alone, 3) is beyond me.
Overrated: Oklahoma State Football '09, Wisconsin Football, LeBron James
Underrated: Donald Driver, Charles Woodson (how he hasn't made more pro bowls is beyond me), Andre Johnson, Kevin Durrant.
Extremely Overrated: Lebron James
The best player in the NBA is "over-rated". You need to distinguish between "over-rated" and "over-hyped". Tebow is over-hyped, but just as good as anyone says. LeBron is over-hyped but is still the best player in the NBA.
Woodson hasn't made more pro bowls because he was injured, and not that good for around 4 years of his career.
the best player in NBA is lebron? hmm what exactly has Lebron proven? nothing really besides that he is a classless player and everytime he loses he cant even go and congradulate the other team. I know losing isnt fun but at least be able to congradulate the other team for being better. I know there are alot of opinions out there about the best player in NBA right now. Personally I say its Kobe. But theres no way Lebron is the best player he has to make it to NBA finals at least to even be considered one
LeBron did make the finals...
yea and lost horribly
Question: If LeBron and Kobe switched teams last season and LeBron had Pau, Odom, Ariza, etc. to work with and Kobe had ___ to work with... who wins the NBA title?
Kobe had better teammates. That hardly makes him the better player.
I don't know about you, but when I think of Lebron I think best athlete in the NBA, not best player.
First off, he got out played by Heido Turkolo in the Eastern Finals and that is pretty much undebatable. The best player in the NBA does not get out played by Heido.
Second, he misses more clutch free throws than anyone I know. Jordan, Kobe, D-Wade don't miss the FT's Lebron missed at the end of the Orlando Series. The best player in the NBA should make those!
Third, every highlight you see of Lebron is of him dunking on somebody yet everytime I watch Lebron all he does is jack up jump shots and most of those are 3 pointers. He is not a pure shooter and it shows. Jordan, Kobe, D-Wade are pure shooters. Best wing in the NBA has to be able to hit shots.
Four, his defense is average. He is not a lock down defender like Kobe or Jordan. Kobe destroyed him head to head this past year.
Again, I will agree that Lebron is the best athlete in the NBA but there is no way I will say he is the best player. I will agree he is very over hyped and many people take said hype and assume that means he is the best player. Here is a list of players who are or will be better than him shortly:
Overrated - Jason Kidd, Eli Manning (Highest paid NFL player - are you freaking kidding me?!?)
Underrated - Marian Gaborik
There was a big fuss over him leaving the Pens and coming to Detroit, and everyone said the Wings would just dominate the NHL this past year because of how loaded they were. The problem is, Hossa didn't really produce that much, especially when it mattered in the playoffs.
To his credit, he was good with the Pens. But what happened?
I'll be mad if he dominates with the Blackhawks...
on Hossa having a pretty messed up shoulder in the playoffs? I've read that he could barely raise his arm up.
I heard of it, but I didn't know it was that bad. I follow M sports a lot closer than pro-Det. teams (minus the 'Stones).
Pulling the ignorance card on this one.
because inevitably you get people calling Lebron overrated when that's absurd.
i would say that in terms of media coverage to talent ratio, maybe someone like Carlos Lee in baseball is underrated. he's only been to the all star game a couple times. you can book 30ish HRs and .800+ OPS every year (he's hit 16 or more every year in the majors, and 30+ 5 of the last 6 years). but outside of fantasy leagues you don't really hear his name very often, IME. i guess if you live in Houston that might be different.
as for overrated, i'll take Derek Jeter and David Eckstein.
Overrated - Steve Nash. No way he deserved two MVPs(was it two or three?) Very flashy but plays horrible defense and his style only works well with high tempo teams.
Underrated - I don't know, I actually hadn't thought past the overrated part.
Only 2 Jeter mentions so far?
He is the king of overrated.
Gordon Beckham, 3rd baseman for the CWS.
Overrated: Reggie Miller. Bill Simmons has harped on this before and I agree wholeheartedly. Great shooter? Undoubtably. Clutch too. But could not create off the dribble, for pete's sake.
TO: This Thread
FROM: Derek Jeter
Dear Thread @ MGoBlog:
Hello! I am glad to hear about such an interesting discussion on the internet. Thank you for including me in such a fine discussion. Unfortunately, I cannot say anything that will convince you to change your opinions, which is fine. Please know that I will take consolation in this some day on the last weekend in July in Cooperstown, NY.
P.S.: I'll be sure to send Alan Trammel tickets to the National Baseball HoF for my induction. It's the only way he'd be allowed in.
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Compare Stats to Similars
1. Barry Larkin (901)
2. Alan Trammell (876)
3. Ryne Sandberg (870) *
4. Roberto Alomar (866)
5. Ray Durham (855)
6. Lou Whitaker (842)
7. Julio Franco (838)
8. Joe Torre (834)
9. Johnny Damon (824)
10. Bobby Doerr (818) *
Or is that fielding which gets him in?
You forgot to cite Jeter's 1.100 TY+.
Which is, of course, the adjusted True Yankee quotient.
Ouch. And, he's been one of the worst defensive SS in the league over the course of his career.
It's always bothered me that while Ozzie Smith was a first-ballot Hall of Famer, Trammell barely eeked out 15% of the vote and will have to depend on the Veteran's Committee. Smith was a wizard in the field, no doubt, and I don't mind him being in the Hall just for that. But Tram was a better overall player. He's got to get in.
I actually think it's OK - Trammell was unquestionably a better hitter, but Smith, according to Baseball Prospectus was actually worth more total wins over a slightly shorter career. Part of this is that Trammell spent most of his last 6 years as a DH, but also, part of it is this: Ozzie Smith, was, hands down, the greatest defensive player in the history of baseball - nearly 90% of the wins they quantify that he generated as a player were as a result of his glove.
Trammell was a very good defensive SS for a solid 6 year run - I won't claim otherwise. But even Trammell, who BP thinks spent 6 years from the age of 23 to the age of 27 as a gold glove-caliber SS, at his peak was only half as productive a fielder as Smith. Smith, at his peak, is literally untouchable in how good he was in the field - not a single player is vaguely close.
If nothing else, I think Smith deserves in because of his unquestioned superiority as baseball's greatest defensive player. He's perhaps the only player ever who's defense was good enough to make a league average hitter over the course of his career into a legitimate HOF'er.
- In 14 full seasons in the majors, Jeter has hit .300 or above 11 times, and his lowest season average was .292. A career .316 hitter. At 35 he is hitting .319 and has only 6 errors (in fact, he is enjoying one of his 2 or 3 best defensive seasons ever, at least statistically)
- He needs one more stolen base this season for his 8th year of 20+ thefts
- Will soon surpass Lou Gehrig's team record for hits; will almost certainly join 3,000 hit club.
- .309 postseason average. 4 World Series wins, 2000 Series MVP. Undeniably clutch
- 10 All-Star games, 3 Gold Gloves, Rookie of the Year
- The Flip, The Dive-- he's an iconic player. Very rare anymore
- Perhaps most impressively, Jeter may be the greatest New York City bachelor in history
- Confirmed romantic conquests: late 90's Mariah Carey, a Miss Universe, pre-Timberlake Jessica Biel, Vanessa Minillo, Minka Kelly
- Rumored: Scarlett Jo, Adriana Lima, Jessica Alba, and more.
Batting average, "Gold Gloves," stolen bases will not help your argument. You have to dig deeper than that.
Otherwise, this won't be a fair fight. We should be beyond the traditional statistics at this point.
Jeter has been a good offensive shortstop. But, his "defense" is incredibly overrated.
His UZR is the best it has ever been this season. But, in the years he won the Gold Glove, he had UZR's of -14.3, -6.8, and -15.3. He was one of the worst defensive SS in the game in the years he won a Gold Glove.
Of course, Michael Young won one last year and Adam Everett has never won one. I guess I should not be surprised.
Many of those numbers are result of being a good player for a long time. Total hits and steals come from being healthy and playing for awhile. All-star games....again, see the "over-rated" topic - those are votes.
He's a good player - Barry Larkin, Lou Whitaker, Trammell the players to whom he's comparable were all good players, and all borderline HOF'ers. Not the unquestioned first-ballott member that Jeter will be.
I'm not saying Jeter won't get it - he'll be a first ballot. I'm saying it's not as deserved as ESPN wants us to think.
20+ SBs for 8 years is a completely arbitrary number.
3,000 hits is impressive.
Clutch is made up and dependent on other guys. Is it Tram's fault the other Tigers weren't clutch enough to put him in more clutch situations?
All Star games are voted on by fans. Jeter would be the AL SS if he missed the first 9 weeks of the season and was batting below the mendoza line.
Gold Gloves are perhaps just as worthless as All Star games.
I'll give you the iconic plays thing, because the writers undeniably take that into account. But I'm not sure how Jeter forced Giambi to not slide.
Jeter is a good player. He's only a lock as a HOFer because he played in New York.
Overrated scrappy (white) guy: Yale Van Dyne
Underrated scrappy (white) guy: John Kolesar
Overrated...................Apollo Creed, Ivan Drago, Clubber Lang
Overrated Cy Young the dude lost like 400 games.
Underrated Gordie Bell dude was spectacular, ask BO if you don't believe me.
Cy Young played on some of the worst teams ever. He also played when pitchers got a lot more decisions (although this would inflate his win total a little as well as his loss total). He should still be considered one of the best of all time. Not to mention the near uselessness of wins and losses at determining how good a pitcher is.
Underrated: David Harris. This guy never seemed to get the attention he deserved in college and is a great NFL backer now.
Overrated: Drew Stanton. What did he really accomplish? I remember preseason heisman hype and the media drooling all over the guy.
Just had this discussion with a coworker over lunch:
Underrated: "Long Long Long"
Underrated: "Hey Bulldog"
Feel free to discuss
Overrated: Octopus' Garden
Underrated: Help! / Dear Prudence / We Can Work It Out (? A few of my favorites)
off of the White Album would qualify as underrated. None were hits, but they're some of his best. Besides Dear Prudence, there's also I'm So Tired, "Julia", "Yer Blues", and the criminally overlooked "Everybody's Got Something to Hide (Except for Me and My Monkey)". Also "Sexy Sadie" and "Cry Baby Cry" which the Rock Snob's Dictionary accurately identified as the coolest Beatles song to reference if you're seeking hipster cred. Man I can't wait to get my remastered White Album
wow you're a real beatles savant. you should read "John Lennon: The Life" - it's a fairly new book. he was a really interesting person.
Happiness is a Warm Gun is one of the most underrated songs of all time.
Overrated? Easily Eight Days A Week.