OT: Ben Gordon's a Piston. Oh, so is Villanueva.
He's six years younger, mildly cheaper, and at this point, far better than Rip. It's not a great signing, and Gordon definitely has his weaknesses (defense), but this isn't terrible.
The other UConn guy is in, too.
I'm just interested in who they're going to trade for now that they have Gordon.
I'm hoping for a high caliber trade or free agent signing.
Hamilton can't play the 3 and you are not going to bring your new $11 million a year SG off the bench. Bye, bye Hamilton. Bye, bye McDyess. And with out a good PG and legitimate superstar bye, bye to ever seeing the 2nd round of the playoffs.
It seems that the team is going away from it's true identity of in your face hard nosed defense. That's what brought 3 championships to the Pistons. It started with Ben's departure and seems to be getting worse.
You have to ask-- If you were a player would you sign with a team that doesn't have a coach? Can you imagine the rude awakening Gordon would be in if Laimbeer or Collins is named as the coach?
Villanueva likes to shoot about 1 every two minutes last year but doesn't do it very well(45%). He also doesn't rebound well, make steals, or block shots yet he's 6'11". Also averages more than 1 TO/assist.
Personally, I would rather tank next year and get a high pick plus have lots of cap room for 2010 even though I don't believe any big time free agents would sign with the Pistons.
Starting with getting darko, continuing with near zero draft success, and only one major move, and now it ends with this signing. See you guys in 3 years for a gm search.
Yeah man, fuck Dumars for not finding better players in the NBA draft while picking between 22nd and 30th the past 6 years.
Good picks by joe : tay, okur, stuckey (probably), maxiel (although turiaf is better)
Bad picks by joe : darko, white, cleaves, and all the other guys who aren't even in the league.
Face it, dumars has blown the pick 3/5 times in the top half, and gotten zero production over the rest of it. He is a shitty drafter, and for the last 5 years has drafted almost noone who has made any kind of real impact. I'm not even asking for starters, just a positive impact, not like most of them, who aren't even in the league.
I'm sick and tired of hearing this "Dumars is a shitty drafter" crap. How many teams have done any better? Who should Dumars have drafted like instead? Boston, with Gerald Green, Troy Bell, Kedrick Brown, Joe Forte? How about the Lakers, maybe he should copy the Lakers with Kareem Rush and Sasha Vujacic. Or maybe the Spurs: Beno Udrih was GREAT for them, as were Tiago Splitter and Ian Mahinmi.
Go look at the draft history of most every team out there. It sucks. You know why it sucks? Because there are 150 starting spots in the league and 30 new players get drafted in the first round every year - if they could all be starters, there'd be complete turnover every five years. Clearly that's nonsense. The draft, as with any draft in any sport, is a crapshoot and the Pistons aren't especially worse at it than anyone else.
No shit. Piston Slappies babble endlessly about "the best starting five in basketball" and THEN bitch about how Dumars didn't draft an impact starter after Tayshaun? Fuck people, grow up.
Yeah, there's some interesting compartmentalization going on there. Not to mention the argument that Dumars should be fired for breaking up "the best starting five," all of which he assembled.
the spurs got parker and ginobli, the lakers got bynum and turiaf and I'm pretty sure ariza, and boston used al jefferson and sebastian telfair to get kg. The spurs and lakers also got their superstar players in the draft, as did boston with peirce. Joe d did nothing when he had top picks, and has found almost noone in the last half. I realize almost no picks past the lottery will be starters, but there are players there, 8th, 9th, 10th men, and none of those picks panned out.
Don't give me this bullshit about him never having high picks, he's blown 3 top ten picks, and only one of those picks even has an nba career.
You don't know shit.
Trevor Ariza was drafted by the Knicks. So, sorry there.
Telfair was drafted by the Blazers, and then the Celtics paid a king's ransom for him.
The Celtics were out of the fucking playoffs when they relied on their "drafted superstar" - Paul Pierce.
The Lakers drafted Bynum after they...wait for it...missed the playoffs. There other stars? Bryant was drafted, Gasol was gifted to them, Odom came over in the Shaq trade, Ariza came from the Knicks.
Kobe was actually drafted by the Charlotte Hornets.
You're just full of fun facts today.
Hey ie got a better percentage than joe in the top half of the draft. Joe also made picks when he wasn't in the playoffs, busted big twice, then traded and got the number 2 pick and blew that too. He has added next to zero talent through the draft, and most of his picks are out of the league.
In addition, the celtics used the draft wisely, trading picks, and young talent they drafted, to build a champion. If they had blown the pierce pick earlier, like joe did with white and cleaves, they wouldn't be able to do that.
In his entire tenure here, which encompasses a large sample size of picks, joe has added almost noone. He has blown more high picks than he's hit on, and he's gotten zero out of late picks.
I realize every gm will have busts, but they should also hit on more than 4 players, and that's a generous count, in a decade. We will see how great joe is the next couple years, but forgive me if I don't believe ben gordon or austin daye is the answer.
Your argument is basically: The Celtics draft well because they trade away their mistakes.
Players drafted by Pistons in last decade who have significantly outperformed expectations based on where they went in draft:
Amir Johnson (One late pick; i.e. > 0)
That's a CONSERVATIVE 5. You could also include Brian Cardinal for a more generous 6.
As has already been explained by numerous people who, you know, actually pay attention to NBA basketball, every GM and his mother was going to take Darko with the 2nd pick. So basically you're whining about Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White being drafted in '00 and '01. Before the Pistons won 6 straight conference championships. Or are you mad that the Pistons tend not to get great production out of late 2nd round picks? If this is the case, I suggest you 1) consult a list of guys taken after 45, 2) divide the number of guys playing in the league by the total number of picks, 3) go fuck yourself.
Who is this mystical 3rd top 10 pick that Dumars has picked? He took Darko at 2, Rodney White at 9, and ???
Here are some of his better deals to assemble talent for the championship runs:
Mateen Cleaves to the Sacramento for Jon Barry and a #1 Pick.
Rodney White to the Nuggets for Don Reid, Mengke Bateer (immediately to Spurs for a 2nd rounder)and a future first-round draft pick. <-- Hey look, a #1 pick back!
Chucky Atkins and Lindsey Hunter, a #1 pick and cash to the Celtics and guard Bob Sura and center Zeljko Rebraca to the Atlanta Hawks for Mike James from the Boston Celtics and Rasheed Wallace from the Atlanta Hawks.
I love how you shift the argument - "well, Boston used their shitty picks to get someone else so it's cool." Well, Joe D. used Darko to draft Stuckey. So it's cool?
I also love how you're all over Ronny Turiaf's nuts as a great pick - the Lakers loved him so much they let him go to the Warriors. So: Ronny Turiaf great, Arron Afflalo bad.
With each team getting a draft pick, and NBA rosters being so small, a good amount of any team's draft picks are going to end up not making it into the NBA. When Dumars picks 15 or above:
2000 - #14 Mateen Cleaves was not good
2001 - #9 Rodney White was bad
2003 - #2 Darko, However, you know many other teams would have taken him here as well. In hindsight, this was a huge mistake, but at the time everybody was deliriously happy about it.
2007 - #15 Rodney Stuckey, who appears to be okay.
2009 - #15 Austin Days
No first round picks in 2004, 2006
Other first rounders
2002 - #23 Tayshaun Prince
2003 - #25 Carlos Delfino
2005 - #26 Jason Maxiel
2007 - #27 Aaron Afflalo
2008 - #29 DJ White (Now on OKC/Seattle)
First rounders speaking, I would say Dumars was 5/8 on passable players who can be evaluated at this point (Prince, Delfino, Maxiel, Afflalo, Stuckey), with 2 Incompletes in White and Days
Addressing your second round concerns:
2000 - #44 Brian Cardinal, still playing for Minnesota
2001 - #38 Memo Okur, I hear he's doing alright in SLC
2005 - #56 Amir Johnson and #60 Alex Acker were recently traded
2006 - #60 Will Blalock is still with the Pistons
2nd round failures/not in the league anymore:
2002 # 58 Andreas Glyniadakis, 2003 #55 Rickey Paulding, 2007 #58 Sammy Mejia (not sure if he's still elligible for the D-league or not)
So, in summary, you're wrong.
If Joe Dumars and "90% of the other crappy GM's in the league" (an implication that I'm relieved didn't make my head explode) draft on potential and an educated roll of the dice, what exactly do the other 10% draft on? Mystical visions of who actually is going to put up 15 and 8 in 4 years?
Are you saying that GMs should pay attention to who is good at basketball? If so, I'm sure most have already thought of this. Are you saying that they should draft whoever is most accomplished coming in? Please tell me you're one of the people who brings up Mateen Cleaves when arguing for Joe's incompetence.
I don't think they're that good either, however, I was responding to this comment: "I'm not even asking for starters, just a positive impact, not like most of them, who aren't even in the league."
Dumars has a pretty good number of draftees still playing, if he's not above average he has to be in that middle area. Combine that with his above average trades and FA signings, I'd say he's a pretty good NBA GM.
Maxiell is already way better than Ben Wallace at scoring. He is not and probably never will be better than Ben at defense though.
Afflalo has the potential to be a starter I think. He is a very solid defender and has a nice outside shot.
Yeah, the thing about Darko is that everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, thought he was going to be, outside of LeBron, THE prize of the draft. Seven footer, skilled, could shoot, rebound, had all the moves, dominated Europe, absolute freak in workouts. That's why it cracks me up when pundits make fun of Dumars for drafting him - this was the same crowd that thought Darko was a can't-possibly-miss guy.
The Pistons' lineup at the time was Chauncey, Rip, Michael Curry, Cliff Robinson, and Ben. Tayshaun was the heir apparent to Curry's 3 spot and we had Big Nasty Corliss Williamson off the bench too. We clearly had no need for a 1 or a 2 with Chauncey and Rip as recent acquisitions. Tayshaun being the guy ready to take over the 3, we didn't need that either. Uncle Cliff was about to leave and was at the end of his usefulness anyway; with Ben in the lineup, a scoring big man would have been the absolute perfect addition.
Sure, it's easy to say, draft the best guy available and worry about need later. The Pistons were just coming off a #1 seed in the playoffs and needed a big man to get them over the hump - they were badly exposed by Kenyon Martin in the ECF. And besides: Darko was the best guy available. OK, Chris Bosh would have been better in hindsight, but every scout league-wide was slobbering all over themselves at the mere mention of Darko's name. At the time he looked like the rare perfect combination of greatest need and supreme talent. I'll regret for a long time that Darko didn't pan out, but not once will I ever bash Joe D for drafting him.
+1....i hate the people who say that the worse thing dumar has ever done is draft darko....blah blah blah...Every scout and GM loved him. That year probably was best draft ever so far. The consensus #1 was Lebron and consensus #2 was Darko. It was a given. If pistons have that #3 pick then we would have wade, bosh, or melo on our team and Dumars would be a genius. We jsut got the shitty draw of Darko sucking and getting the #2 pick from Memphis. Too bad. However, I wouldn't trade that championship we did get and the second one we should have (I constantly think of that shot horry hit when sheed left him open...keeps me up at night)
Darko was very highly regarded and a big man was the most pressing priority, I and several of my friends were pissed off at the time they didn't take Carmelo. Tayshaun looked good in the previous playoffs but it was clear he was not of the same caliber of scorer or rebounder Carmelo was.
Also, Darko was a 17 year old European who clearly would need development and the Pistons needed an impact guy right away to complement the core he had already established. I think Bosh fits that second bill better than Darko.
So, there were definitely people who thought it was a mistake at the time.
FACT: The Pistons had an elite starting 5 that got them to5 straight conference finals. Their starting five was referred to as "the best starting 5 in basketball". Can you understand that, while drafting at the ass-end of the draft, it's hard to draft players BETTER than "the best starting 5 in basketball"?
FACT: Every single player that contributed to their championship was acquired by Dumars: He traded Stackhouse (their best fucking player at the time, who lead them to a divisional championship the prior year) for Hamilton, acquired Ben Wallace (and Chucky Atkins) for Grant Hill's exhumed corpse, acquired Billups after he had been repeatedly given up on, acquired 'Sheed after he had been termed a team-killing cancer, and drafted Prince.
FACT: He fashioned a champion out of cast-off parts and a late-first round draft pick.
In a town where Matt Millen ritually butt-fucked the Lion's chances on an annual basis, some assholes have the audacity to call-out a riotously successful GM of a home town team who also PLAYED on 2 championship teams for the town? Fuck. Get fucked.
I completely agree with this excellently stated post. It would have been nice, however, if you could have more clearly tied in Detroit's ritual butt-fucking by Matt Millen with the characteristics of its assholes.
It was 6 straight ECF, not 5. C'mon chitown, you're selling Joe short!
Bad mismanagement = freeing up massive cap space by trading away aging parts?
So Joe should be ripped on for not keeping the ECF streak alive? Good things can't last forever unless you're the Red Wings.
What was he supposed to do? Ride Billups, Hamilton, and the Wallaces until they broke, or became worthless? Ditching Ben was the right thing to do - look at him now. Did Billups have another year or two in the tank? Sure, but in order to get anything of value (Iverson's expiring contract), you have to give up value. That's what he did.
People have a hard on for Hamilton, but they're up in arms about him signing a similar player with a more versatile game, who's 6 years younger, AND cheaper? Come on.
The drafting thing - whatever. How many teams have been consistently finding value with the bottom 4 picks in the draft?
normally i could but ... if we pick marshmellow instead we dont trade for sheed and we dont win the '04 championship which is something i would never give back
they were average this past year
Just in a down cycle. As long as we keep Dumars, we'll be back soon. And when people talk about the Spurs, Lakers or Celtics it pisses me off. None of those teams made amazing late round picks except for Ginobili. Well Tayshaun is as good as Ginobili to me, so there. The Spurs lucked out on getting the number 1 pick when one of the best power forwards in history was available. Did Cleveland do a great job in the draft just because of Lebron? Seriously, wtf? If people want to see the Pistons die, they should continue to hope Dumars gets fired, then we will see what a poor or even average GM can do in this dying city.
The Spurs have had the unbelievable good fortune to win the lottery twice when franchise big men were available (David Robinson and Tim Duncan). They are the only NBA franchise to have done better than the Pistons from 2003-08.
As a Bulls fan I'm glad to see Ben go. Sure, he was our leading scorers but the guy is a cancer on defense and takes horrible shots most of the time. Gordon was our leading scorer in 4 games during the playoffs and we lost all four. He scored 27 pts or more in each of those games. Ill take D Wade next year, thank you very much.
D Wade was on ESPN 1000 a couple of weeks ago and said his first priority was to re-sign with Miami, in others words he's going no where. When Chicago radio heads kept asking about it D Wade just kept on saying "Chicago already has a good future with Rose."
I think it's funny the Bulls fans hate Gordan so much but they sure will miss his 20 pts a game.
We will see about that in a year. How many times has there been speculation about Lebron leaving in the last year? Things change.
As for his 20 pts....he gives up about 40 with his bad defense.
the Pistons needed to be shaken up, especially after last year. I'm glad Joe is making some moves.
Don't blame Joe Dumars for the Pistons losing there tough personality. Blame David Stern for changing league rules after the Pistons and Spurs started dismantling teams. Defense wins championships and loses ratings. You will never see a team like those Piston and Spur teams ever again.
Dumars knows this and sees a chance to make an offensive team. He just needs one shot blocker to help erase some of the defensive mistakes made by Villanueva and Gordon.
I expect you will see Rip or Tayshaun moved for someone like Camby or Chandler.
I hope...or maybe Dumars has lost his God damn mind
not really sure right now.
It'll be interesting to see what kind of identity future Pistons teams take on. These guys definitely weren't brought in to try and win games by being the first team to 80. A lot depends on who'll be coaching, but I for one would not mind watching a team that puts up 110 on a consistent basis.
Villanueva just played for Scott Skiles and if you don't play D for him then you're on the bench. BG played for Skiles as well in Chicago. So they both have familiarity with a D first coach. And they aren't dumb or naive either. They both likely asked about DET's coaching vacancy and anyone w/ a computer knows who they are targeting.
Joe D will never hire a coach that doesn't stress defense atleast a little (Flip was an offensive coach but still stressed D a lot - more so than people realize).
Great defense, while containing a good measure of wit, bball IQ and athleticism often comes down to desire. BG and CV have the ability to be solid defenders. Hopefully they buy in.
And if we can land another legit piece in a trade either from salary dump(Kaman, Chandler, Amare) or can get in on the Bosh sweepstakes(raps dont wanna lose him for nothing), then a championship mission vibe could develop.
I know this is getting into the territory of a stretch for DET's purposes, but when guys know they got a shot at a title and are hungry, their D picks up to match that of the team's level but only if there is a strong defensive culture present(ie Boston and Cleveland). We saw this happen w/ Mo Williams last year and Paul Pierce the year before (pierce raised his defensive level from lazy to near lockdown at times).
My point is that a guys defensive rep can improve and often does so when moving on to a better team with the increased motivation to go all out on D. Not saying it will happen, but my favorite candidate is Avery Johnson and i think he has a chance to create a good defensive culture to go along with our improved offensive potency
Not that I mind the shake up, but I don't see how all of this is leading to Detroit being a top 3 in the East team and championship contender. The Pistons got a bit younger, but unless there's a monster move sometime in the summer, I don't see how they're going to be better than Atlanta or Boston, much less Cleveland or Orlando.
Why are people laboring under the misconception that Rip was actually a decent defensive player? He got to play the 3rd best perimeter player on the other team, and had the backup of two of the best defensive big men in the game (the Wallaces). Gordon's not good at defense, but neither was Hamilton - especially when the Pistons traded for him. Unlike Hamilton, Gordon can shoot treys, and can get his own shot.
Rip is much taller than Gordon.
Gordon scores and that's it. No defense, no rebounding, minimal assists. Every five to ten games he has a crazy NBA Jam "HE'S ON FIRE!" game, but he's extremely maddening the other games as he shoots 25 or 30% from the field and just keeps on shooting. He's a good free throw shooter though.
Salmons may not have the crazy scoring games Gordon did, but he costs less and can actually defend bigger shooting guards. A completely one-dimensional player like Gordon isn't worth what the Pistons are going to pay him. They're paying 11 million a year for a guy who has been at his best when he's been a sixth man bench scorer.
I think this means the Bulls hold on to Hinrich, which I like. Hinrich is a good defender and can sub at either guard spot. He's overpaid, but his contract is the opposite of normal so his salary actually goes down each year as the first year of the contract was the largest.
I don't disagree. But:
No defense, no rebounding, minimal assists.
I swear to god you just described Rip.
look, stop bashing joe d. what other gm has had a better reign in six seasons than him? he created our championship team without any virtual superstars. that's what i call a great gm. yes, he has made mistakes but so does everyone and joe d has made less mistakes than most (Kerr). So anyway, get behind the team and show some support. He knows what he's doing.
What is a virtual superstar?
Mario and Luigi. Maybe the chick from Metroid.
Sorry for breaking MGoBlog.
As requested, a link!
Metroid had one of the weirdest endings. You win the game, and then discover you've been controlling a cross-dressing chick all this time.
a 6 ft guy who cant play d $11 mil a yr
Joe Dumars has had a direct hand in every NBA Championship the Pistons have ever won. He built the current team from scratch, and had to tear it down to rebuild. Unless a team is extremely fortunate, as San Antonio has been to have first David Robinson and then Tim Duncan to build around, they all have to do that.
Joe will build another champion; Pistons fans will just have to be patient. Any who can remember what it was like watching them from about 1960-1985 should be able to do that quite easily. As for the rest of you, just try to remember the Post-Bad Boy through Grant Hill years.
I'm thankful to Joe for what he accomplished and plan to enjoy the process of rebuilding.
I like the signings. The main logic and sense in this for me is that the team they had last year wasn't getting it done. It was time to shake it up and bring in new parts. Who knows, maybe some of the players Joe D brings in will change once they get here. Obviously Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups changed after they got to D, and even 'Sheed to an extent (he wasn't really a team killer after he got to D). It was broken, so he's trying to fix it, and it's hard to snag high quality players when there aren't many to choose from this off-season.
I like this move if it means tayshaun and rip are both dunzo with the pistons. How about that deal for rondo now??? eh? eh? still not happening? okay.
right....blah blah blah he's not a good defender. we've heard that about a million times now.
you failed to mention that Gordon is also a 20 point scorer (who shot 45.5% from the field last year), a career 41.5% 3-point shooter (for comparison Reggie Miller was 39.5%), and a professional who will do what the coach needs him to do to help the team (including coming off the bench if need be).
After they traded Billups last year they lost their #1 threat behind the arc and Gordon is more than capable of bringing that back to the offense. I think this is a great signing.
(oh...I got those stats from Rosenberg's article in the Freep if they look familiar)
yeah If they don't make the playoffs next season then I suppose you would be right. of course, you have to be pretty damn bad not to make the playoffs in the NBA.
i can see your point, i just think he provides something that they were in need of. i'm not sure about the contract - maybe it's too much? i don't really know, plenty of NBA players get paid way more than they are worth.
The other thing people are forgetting is when we trade rip (we will) then are cap number at SG comes down a million a year and Gordon can actually do things like penatrate and hand the ball. Rip may be the worst ball handling 2 guard in the league and without a true point he loses some of his effectiveness. This allows Stucky to have someone on his team with a similar skill set so he isn't the only player on the team that attacks the basket.
I'm sure a lot of these guys who are screaming how Gordon sucks are the same guys who were screaming how stupid Joe Dumars was when he trade Stackhouse for Rip in the first place. Give Joe a little trust. He built a winner and a great franchise in a market that is one of the worst in the country.
I was listening to the podcast interview of BG on ESPN's link just now, and he mentioned that Joe sold him on how he wants to recreate the "3 guard offense" idea like the Bad Boys (Isiah, Joe, Microwave)...and BG said (paraphrasing) "so I see a good fit with Stuckey, Rip and myself."
Do you think he means this as coming off the bench and playing that lineup, or could it mean implicitly that Joe is shopping Tay around? I think that move would actually make a bit more sense given all the SF's we drafted (which Joe said all will probably make the team).
has the most trade value and has probably peaked. He might be enough to help us get a decent shot blocker/rebounder, which is what we need the most.
I wanted to post a topic for this but I don't have enough points yet...
As far as I've heard, Tay is staying, but Rip is gone. A source at the Palace told an exec at my company that Rip is going to be traded to Utah for Boozer, which is why Boozer did not opt out of his contract.
Another trade is going to be Jason Maxiell and Kwame Brown for Tyson Chandler.
So we will see a starting-5 of Stuckey, Gordon, Villanueva, Chandler, and Prince. To me, this line-up is horrible, but that's why I'm not an NBA GM.
To me, this line-up is horrible, but that's why I'm not an NBA GM.
Or a coach: it's horrible 'cause you put Chandler in there instead of Boozer.