Open Season In Ohio Comment Count

Brian

Michigan[1]

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I'm stealing this from a guy who stole it from someone else on the internet with some refinements because… yeah. Brady Hoke is doing work in Ohio. Here's a list of Ohio recruits in Lloyd Carr's last six classes compared to Brady Hoke's first two:

Lloyd Carr, 2002-2007

Kickers. Zoltan Mesko, Bryan Wright.

[Separate category because teams generally have one scholarship max per slot; OSU did not compete for either guy because they weren't in the market those years.]

Three star types: Mark Bihl, Willis Barringer, Mister Simpson.

Three/four star borderline: Pat Massey, Brandon Harrison, Cobrani Mixon

Four star+ types: Shawn Crable, Prescott Burgess, Mario Manningham, Justin Boren.

That's 12 in six classes with four of them consensus four-star types. Only those four had OSU offers. If you want to add Carr's recruiting efforts in his final season that led to the hybrid class you can add two more borderline sorts in Brandon Moore and Elliott Mealer plus a consensus four-star w/ OSU offer in Kevin Koger. That doesn't change the math much.

Brady Hoke, 2012-2013

This is Hoke's first full class and the one Michigan is currently working on.

Three-star types: Willie Henry, Kaleb Ringer, Allen Gant

Three/four star borderline: Jaron Dukes, Deveon Smith, AJ Williams

Four-star types+: Gareon Conley (just needs Rivals to update to be consensus), Ben Gedeon, Mike McCray, Taco Charlton, Dymonte Thomas, Chris Wormley (minus Rivals), Kyle Kalis, Jarrod Wilson, Tom Strobel, Joe Bolden, Jake Butt.

Gedeon, Smith, Thomas, Wormley, Kalis, and Strobel had OSU offers, and Urban Meyer tried to get in on Joe Bolden after he was hired.

Open Season

Michigan's gone from a four-star-plus recruit from Ohio twice every three years to five per year. Tressel implosion and the scholarship restrictions that caused is obviously a major reason for the sea change. Hoke is just as important in that equation, however, and given Meyer's increased focus on "national" recruits that's a trend that should continue into the future. Ohio State's obviously doing well for themselves with this strategy, but in the process they're giving Michigan bonus recruits from Ohio in addition to their usual in-state, regional, and national recruiting.

Oh, right: now we can beat Notre Dame head to head, too.

------------------------------

[What about Rodriguez? RR added more borderline 3/4 sorts to the hybrid class in Mike Shaw, Taylor Hill, and Roy Roundtree plus sleeper Patrick Omameh.

The next year RR got the two kids out of Liberty (Isaiah Bell, a three star, and Fitzgerald Toussaint, a 4 four star) and Justin Turner, a four star sort with an OSU offer.

In 2010 Michigan recruited a  ton of dudes from Ohio, 11 in all, but all(!) were generic three stars except Jerald Robinson and Jibreel Black, who were borderline. None had OSU offers. Six haven't made it through two years in the program.

That pattern repeated in RR's final class. He picked up Jack Miller, Greg Brown, and Chris Rock, all three-stars. Hoke came in and added Antonio Poole, Frank Clark, Keith Heitzman, and Tamani Carter, also all three stars.

So while RR was a lot better at pulling players out of Ohio, he was a lot worse at getting the players big time programs want, and worse yet at keeping them. His total tally of H2H wins against OSU was one, and that kid never played. A lot of his success-type activity can be attributed to going after guys with crappy offer lists.

FWIW, the hybrid classes weren't included because a scrambling month to pick up the pieces at a new job is not representative of long term recruiting trends.]

Comments

lexus larry

April 24th, 2012 at 1:10 PM ^

I'm not quite as savvy on recruiting as so many other fan/FB stalk/recruiting service subscribers, so here goes:

How early does a typical recruit have a good idea where he wants to go?  Sophomore year?  Junior FB season?  And I'm wondering about those last 6 years of Carr through today, knowing full well that today (2012), many top recruits are getting pencilled in/verballed just after their junior season of football (that they have their minds firmly going to a top 2-3 choices by sophomore year/football season).

My deeper question relates to how much ground work is laid making Michigan an appealing choice to these young men as they make their way through JV in 9th or 9th/10th grades, and then sign on the dotted line a couple years later.  Does this help explain the slow recruiting rise for RR?  That there were many 9th/10th graders unseen/unrecruited by M staff in 2005 or 2006?

Help me understand how this works, how it worked then, etc...

Gracias, mgoamigos.

PurpleStuff

April 24th, 2012 at 2:05 PM ^

A prospect really isn't being offered or recruited in most cases until they enter their upperclass years of high school, with the rare exception of guys like Morris, Barkley, and Jimmy Clausen who were starting as youngsters and getting loads of raves/attention. 

As such, to the extent there is much of a pattern beyond "top schools get top kids", your record two years prior to signing day seems to play a big role in perception.  In 2005 we had a subpar year, and in 2007 we signed only 7 blue-chip prospects (4/5 star on Rivals) out of 20 in a class that was if anything overrated because of the two 5-star guys in it.  In 2006 we had a great season, and in 2008 Carr and Rodriguez combined to bring in 17 blue-chip prospects.  We didn't see a dip from 3-9 until 2010, and this year Coach Hoke is capitalizing on the fact that we went 11-2.

Part of the problem in your statements is that you have embraced the myth about RR's recruiting efforts here.  In 2008 he added a number of quality late additions (Barnum, Floyd, Tay, Roundtree, Shaw, Omameh, and a few other 4-star guys) to secure a top-10 class in the rankings and help us tremendously on the field.  His first full class was ranked 8th on Rivals (one spot below Coach Hoke's initial effort) and has produced a ton of fantastic players.  Then things declined, at least in terms of ranking, but that was only after 3-9, former Michigan players advising kids to go to MSU, "Lloyd Carr's University of Michigan", and pretty much a constant clamoring for the guy to get fired before he could do further damage (despite the fact that the worst was already long behind us).

 

lexus larry

April 24th, 2012 at 2:20 PM ^

for your feedback. 

Also, nice to see some balance and perspective regarding season-on-season trending and all that unfortunateness.

When you suggest "myth about RR's recruiting efforts here" where is "here?"  Here at mgoblog?  Or here in MI?  If here on mgo, I guess there's some truth to that, coming from the top down (even in this post, Brian suggests many "tweeners" etc.).

Thanks again.  Appreciate the insight.

PurpleStuff

April 24th, 2012 at 2:30 PM ^

Was referring to the "slow recruiting rise" comment when if anything he was hottest right out of the gate.  But yeah, I think generally there was a quickly adopted myth that Rodriguez was screwing up in recruiting and/or that failing to land more in-state guys was leading to our infinite demise.  And no amount of actual analysis or continued on field success seems to stir people from the belief that he left behind a broken program because we were very fortunate to win our first BCS bowl in over a decade and might not be the clear-cut favorites to win the Big Ten next year if 60% of our o-line goes down to injury.

M-Wolverine

April 24th, 2012 at 3:20 PM ^

Not improve; recruiting wise at least.

 

Year

Scout

Rivals

08

6

10

09

14

8

10

12

20

11

-

21

12

4

7

 

Cumulatively the 09 class wasn't thought of as well as the 12 class, and the 13 class is well on it's way to blow them both out of the water. Ideally, Lloyd, Rich, or Hoke, you want classes in the Top 10, with the once every four years or so one sliding outside of it, a bit.  There may be a variety of reasons, but you can't credit mostly Rich for 08 without giving him most of the credit for '11 too.  It's not like even if he nailed a couple of guys who were considering that the class looked headed for the Top 10 in November and December. And there was worry that if we went another year with the sword hanging over everyone's head the talent rich 12 class could be a loss too. And that would have been a disaster.  

You're right, he could recruit at Michigan. But the trending wasn't in his favor, or whatever reasons you want to blame...we all know there were enough to pick a lot.  Even if the worst was behind us on the field, it was only going to get worse off the field...and the former would have to have been even better to offset the latter.

Section 1

April 24th, 2012 at 4:41 PM ^

... after Michigan suffered through a 3-win and a 5-win season, and got hammered with a splashy newspaper story and an NCAA investigation that had people -- mostly recruit-type people -- wondering who the Head Football Coach might be.

You last paragraph posed the very question; "...or whatever reasons you want to blame...we all know there were enough to pick a lot."  Those are the things I want to blame.

It certainly posed a very hard problem for Brandon.  Seeing those numbers, Brandon might well have said, I've got to turn this around.  We have to double-down on Rich Rodriguez, with a contract extension and a deal for Jeff Casteel, so that every recruit in the country who thinks of Michigan will know who is leading our program, or else I have go in a different direction.  Because the uncertainty we have right now is fatal to recruiting.

If that is how Brandon framed it, I wouldn't blame him or criticize him.  And I expect that the rest of his thinking went something like; This is all a damn shame.  It isn't Rich's fault, but off the field, things have just gotten too toxic for me to double my bets on Rich's program.  I have to let him go, no matter what kind of football coach he is. 

M-Wolverine

April 25th, 2012 at 9:27 AM ^

But I completely agree with you. I think those questions were exactly what he had in front of him. And there were big risks and possible rewards either way.  Were there other factors that tipped it the way it went? Other things Brandon saw he didn't like? Or just his need to put his own stamp on the program and have his "own guy"?  We'll probably never know. But the time it took for the firing and the hiring to happen, I'm guessing he did struggle with the issues you presented.

tspoon

April 25th, 2012 at 9:43 AM ^

You show Pat as a 3/4* borderline.  I think you were thinking of Mike, the TE, class of '04.

Pat was a near-consensus 4*+ guy in the same class as Pierre Woods -- 2001? 

In the 'where is he now' annals, Pat is a big-time guy (for his age) in high finance these days, just FYI.  Works at a very well-established private investment firm in OH.