is one of their top 7 majors.
Ohio State's Scholarship Sign: Fiction
"The academic support at Ohio State, there is no way you can fail. Even if you’re giving minimal effort there is no way you can fail.”
So, the sign.
It caused Ramzy to do some deep musings on what the value of an education is anyway. I'm not here to speak on Michigan's general studies major or clustering, but rather to point out that the sign is a bald-faced lie. It highlights three impressive-sounding fields in which Ohio State has many majors and Michigan has few. You will be unsurprised to find out virtually all of these players are walk-ons.
According to OSU's 11-12 media guide…
- Walk-ons: four.
- Scholarship players: zero.
- Walk-ons: six.
- Scholarship players: one. DE Darryl Baldwin is an ME.
- Walk-ons: five.
- Scholarship players: one. Jordan Whiting. Taylor Graham is listed as one and has transferred. [UPDATE: Whiting is now considering a transfer to Louisville.]
Meanwhile Mark Huyge can make, like, boats and stuff. There's always a tiny number of football players who are superfreak enough to put 40 hours a week into an "extracurricular activity" and still get a serious degree, but they are few, especially at a place like Michigan that won't even admit you to the B-school until you've scored a 3.8+ in your fist two years.
If you're looking to get a scholarship from Ohio State there's a 90% chance you will end up in the usual communications/"sport and leisure"/taco preparation majors. Which is fine. I just went to a coaching clinic—playing football in college is challenging both mentally and physically.
Just don't pretend you're something you're not. Ask Jim Tressel about how that works out in the long run. Enjoy your bowl this year, guys.
[UPDATE: Should clarify that I also excluded kickers and longsnappers for obvious reasons.]
[HT: Michael Scarn's diary.]
Nothing like real-life experience to help you gain greater understanding of your major.
Sounds familiar Mr Washington...
Tate Forcier: "You really have to try to flunk out here. All you have to do is go to class, it's not that hard."
The whole argument on both sides is stupid. Football players everywhere get phenominal support so they can remain plausibly eligible while working 50-60 hour weeks.
Of course the big difference there is that Tate Forcier did flunk out. Granted, Adolphus Washington still has time - and from the sounds of it, may be well on his way to doing so.
Agreed. Both sides of this argument are stupid.
It's also stupid to let it get under your skin.
Football players are not the same as the rest of the school's population. Let's stop pretending they are. They get in with MUCH lower test scores and grades. They get all sorts of organized study time and tutoring. On average, they take much easier classes.
I find mocking other school's academics as tacky. There isn't a single university in the Big Ten that can't prepare you for a great career.
The fact is, a few years after you get your first job, nobody gives a rat's ass where you went to school. You can either do the job, or you can't.
This. A lot. I've hired people from both OSU and Michigan and will continue to do so. My top employee actually went to Indiana so.
Corporate wealth manangement is about relationships unless you are making decisions on where the money goes. Otherwise, you are the relationship manager, and education doesnt matter there. if you are actually managing, and actively deciding on which sectors, then it matters.
It's about 70% analysis and 30% relationships in my opinion. Reasoning behind that thinking is that good analysis and planning normally cause the relationship to flourish.
I agree to some extent, but I think you're understating the value of attending an elite university vs. a less elite university. It's true that people either prove themselves or don't prove themselves, but going to a top university will, on average, enable someone to start from a higher position than one who goes to a lesser university. On top of that, as one who has been involved in hiring, I'm suspicious of people who claim to pay no attention to the schools that their applicants attend. When you're looking at a resume, you're looking for any signals that you can find about the person you're who submitted it, and knowing that someone attended an elite university provides some information (especially relatively early in the applicant's career).
If your point is just that there isn't much of a difference across Big Ten schools, then I again agree to some extent. I don't think there are any bad schools in the Big Ten. However, I do think that having Michigan or Northwestern on a resume gives someone a non-trivial boost on the job market (or with grad school admissions committees) compared to having some of the other names of Big Ten schools.
I think we're mostly in agreement, but my company (engineering) doesn't view Michigan as "elite". We wouldn't be recruiting at crap universities anyway. The salary structure is also pretty structured, based more on geography and degree than university (save for maybe a Stanford/MIT).
This might be different in smaller companies, but this is my experience in the vast bureaucracy of a large company.
In alphabetical order, these are the top 10 best undergraduate engineering programs at engineering schools where the highest degree offered is a doctorate:
California Institute of Technology
Carnegie Mellon University (PA)
Cornell University (NY)
Georgia Institute of Technology
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Purdue University—West Lafayette (IN)
Stanford University (CA)
University of Illinois—Urbana-Champaign
University of California—Berkeley
University of Michigan—Ann Arbor
How is that not elite?
Because there's not much, if any, difference between students in those schools and the next 20 on the list. You can't really dumb down engineering. The students that make it through a good program are all good. It's not like Michigan State is watering down an engineering class so that the bottom tier of MSU students can make it through.
For the most part, students stay in or near their home state to go to school. Good science/math students in Minnesota for to the Univ. of Minnesota. Those in Illinois go to Illinois. Those in Michigan go to UM or Tech (or even MSU). Those in Ohio go to OSU,etc.. There isn't a fundamental difference between students in any of those states. The curriculum is the same. They end up being very similar engineers. Kids aren't flying across the country to go to Purdue or Michigan, like they might for Stanford/MIT/Cal Tech.
You also have to keep in mind that many engineering programs are highly rated due to strong graduate programs and research. For most positions, tech companies don't care about that. The undergraduate programs at all of those schools are very similar.
And just to ramble on some more...
recruiting is very regional. If you're a midwestern company, chances are you're not recruiting the California schools. It's not as easy to get people to go to Illinois as it is if you're recruiting in the midwest. Same thing for many other areas of the country.
He could have gotten his engineering degree from a top east coast school. He spent four years in AA paying out of state tuition for his computer engineering degree, this was a couple of decades ago, but there was a time when Michigan was viewed as one of the very best computer engineering/computer science courses in the world.
It's sad if that is no longer true.
but my company (engineering) doesn't view Michigan as "elite"
There must be SOME list of universities you consider elite. Maybe it's a list of two, but there has to be a list if you're excluding U-M from that group. And I'm saying it's either a ridiculously short list, (because Michigan probably isn't in the bottom of that top ten), or a mistaken exclusion. If you want to now say "all schools are the same" you can, but that's a different argument than the one you used before.
I'll give you that various programs are bolstered by their grad schools...neither of have the time or interest to look up all of that for a minor point of discussion.
I WILL take issue that people aren't flying all over the Country to go to Michigan. Maybe it's still midwest dominated, but Michigan had a 32% Out of State rate when these were listed-
And Ohio State at 11%. That's significant. (Minnesota and Purdue, better schools mostly, were only at 25% and 21%, respectively). There were only a few major public universities that surpassed it (Wisconsin...Chicago, maybe? and West Virginia, of all places, stand out), and I bet if you did a breakdown by region and internationally, they wouldn't compare.
I'm in agreement with everything you wrote. A qualifying score at Michigan is the same as at OSU when it comes to football admissions. I get irritated with the constant need to compare academics. Michigan has always been a great school. People could act like they've been there before and not be jerks about it.
I went to high school with two girls who played soccer here. They had to go to the academic center 2 or 3 nights a week to do their homework. So the support system is there for all atheletes.
Michigan's B School enrolls students after their freshman year now, so you only have to score a 3.8+ GPA for one year before they let you in.
Did you not see the board Brian? Jeeze.
On a serious note though, Brian makes some good points, but maybe more importantly, even with the walk-ons, those numbers are just flat out incorrect. What gives?
Also, wasn't Michigan always "That School Up North"? It might be a good idea to get a better grasp on definite and indefinite articles/pronouns before attempting to brag about your apparent smartypants football players. Then again, I would expect nothing less from a university in a state featuring many universities that insists upon calling itself The Ohio State University.
Actual Family Resource Management Final Exam Questions:
If Steve wants three tattoos. Steve has only has $20, but the tattoos cost $200 each. If Steve has One Gold pant Charm ($300), and can sign 10 adographs autographs for $50 each, and can steal 5 game worn jerseys from the locker room ($200 each); what are possible combinations Steve can come up with to buy his tattoos?
If Dave is good at sports but his parents do not have much money, what is the best way to increase family resources?
A: Pimp out Dave and receive money from boosters; B: All of Above
How many jobs can Ernest have during the summer, even if he does not actually do any work?
1: As Many Jobs as there are Car dealerships in Columbus; B. 1 Job; C. 0 Jobs; D. Trick Question, he is living off money from boosters and does not need a job.
Nicely done. The guy that always impressed me was James Voskuil. IMHO, he was a great situational player in the Fab 5 days and he had some crazy gpa in Aerospace Engineering I believe. Hail.
Here's a list of Michigan players' majors:
Is Urban so stupid as to ostracize the kids on his own team with "Undecided" or "General Studies" supposedly the pun here? This is the most petty and feeble attempt at making Michigan look bad I've ever seen. Furthermore, his own kids know what degrees are available to them, and it makes me wonder how the majority of his current 4 and 5 stars (probably currently Exploring) feel about this when they see this sign. I’m sure they realize “Exploring” is the equivalent of "General Studies." The more he does to publicize his disdain for Michigan, the less impressed I am with OSU's hire and the more I can see Michigan winning on the field over the next decade. He's putting down his own team here and anyone with half a brain can see that. Perhaps that's why nobody at OSU has picked up on this yet. A real laugh would be to see the majors of the multiple arrested former (and current) Florida players.
You're correct when you say "Exploring" and "General Studies" are pretty equivalent in terms of their difficulty. The difference is that OSU doesn't grant a degree in exploring--it's purpose is to help students identify what they would like to major in. In order to earn a degree they eventually have to declare a real major. Michigan, on the other hand, will give a degree in General Studies. Also, Urban's intent is probably to simply stress academics. If this method motivates kids to take more serious majors and earn a more valuable degree, how is that stupid?
People on the board have repeatedly implied or outright stated that Meyer pays players or commits other blatant violations. FWIW, I don't believe that he did that at Florida or will do it at Michigan. Non-violation dishonesty, though, seemed to be part of his stock-in-trade at Florida, and I expect that to continue at OSU.
"Terrelle Pryor was Academic All-Big Ten for three years" - Dr. Saturday
I'm confused. Is the supposed point of the sign that Communication and Family Resource Management are more rigorous concentrations than General Studies or that we are kicking their asses in undeclared players (one can't help but notice the disparity in column totals)?
This sign is bull. This is one of those internet blowing it out of proportion things. But yes, A) I'm glad someone else quoted Tate in rebuttal to Washington's quote already, good work, B) OSU has had a few Katzenmoyer's who take AIDS Awareness and Golf 101 to stay eligible as I'm sure every Div. 1 football program has these guys, but also has had Craig Krenzel win a MNC while earning a 3.8+ GPA in micro-biology/pre-med.
You realize you're referencing a media guide from before this past season to "debunk" the numbers on the sign, right? How has no one thought that maybe, just maybe, over the past several months some of these kids declared majors?
Does it really matter if the numbers are from 6 months ago rather than 10 minutes ago? Things don't change that much in such a short span of time. If the numbers were from 3 or 5 or 10 years ago, you might have a point. But the seniors who have declared majors are headed out the door and are just as relevant (or irrelevant) as the underclassmen who might have declared majors since the pre-season.
Actually, yes it does matter. You don't think a fair amount of the underclassmen would declare a major between summer and winter?
...know what those majors are, how? Since there's been no new media guide.
...but not this tough:
...in your fist two years.
Fiery! But in all seriousness...who would take a sign seriously that tries to make OSU look more "academic" than Michigan. Stereotypes aside, this is just a joke. Meyer is trying to imitate Hoke's sincere feelings about the rivalry. Sorry dude, can't imitate passion.
Meyer was a graduate assistant coach for two years at OSU. I think he "Gets It" just as much as Hoke does.
Less time in the rivalry as a ga than rich rod did as a head coach is what you are saying
is that Jarrod Wilson and Kaleb Ringer are in my Sociology class and both are sitting in the front row every single day and even answer questions during discussion.
During discussion??? Wow. I absolutely despised required discussion sections. I went into my happy place during the entire hour and didn't say a word. There was nothing worse than a class with a participation grade in the discussion component. The only exception was my lit classes. Other than that I just wanted to read the book and the notes and take the tests. To each his own I guess. Well done Jarrod and Kaleb.
I like how they left out Undeclared and "Exploring", which are the real top two for that school down south.
hello gentlemen/ladies, i was linked here from an external source, but i figured i might stick around for a while just to try to get into some good discussions, if thats okay with y'all.
Your argument on the invalidity of the sign seems fairly straightforward, basically the walk-ons still major in the more difficult sounding majors, while the scholarship athletes, it seems, must take different routes (ie communications, or for the guaranteed NFL bound folks, underwater basket weaving). but i'd love to see a side by side comparison of the two programs. for example, say 10 kids in each program major in business; to take that and see if this sign is in fact wildy exaggerating.
and despite the disparaging on my education, you all seem like reasonable folk, so i hope im not met with too much hate, and ill try to avoid hating as well
Much like some of the comments on this thread mention, you won't be hated, provided a good contribution, now that you're here. I don't know if you read 11W, but I think Ramzy is dead on in his analysis.
My godfather graduated M Engineering ('90) without any sort of academic distinction, but was a great engineer and parlayed that into management positions, a Ross MBA and a corresponding job. I doubt anyone ever asks him what he did in undergrad unless it involves his maize and blue hat of the day. In my fraternity, our wealthiest brothers did their undergrad at IU (my university), Brown, and Arkansas, and I think that's a good example of the country in general. That's my take on the subject, FWIW.
I just hope Jerry Montgomery majored in Taco preparation.
I will open a new reply in honor of it.
You can even see the guy with the camera taking the Dos Equis picture of his computer screen.
I think this sign is a joke - seriously Urbz? But to those who are curious about the General Studies degree, my brother got one (I got mine in communications, which has caught a similar wrath). He is incredibly bright and accomplished, and is now, 25 years after graduation, the president of a company that buys other companies and turns them into more profitable companies. When he was in school, like a lot of 18 and 19 year olds, he didn't know exactly what he wanted to do with the next 50 years of his life. Why commit to something when you're not entirely sure? It was a way to get a broad liberal arts education, Michigan-style. Great professors, interesting subjects, and fellow students who are brighter and more serious than most. If you know you want to be a doctor or an engineer, great. If not, General Studies (whether it's here or elsewhere - we're not the only school that offers this. And by the way, at Brown, you can design your own major, a la General Studies) is a great way to go. Some professions you can't learn in school - only real life experience gets you where you want to go.
M Footabll: Well, well, well. It's been a while, but it is good to be back inside here. The place is still pretty empty, and looks like poop in a cooler. Guess, I will just rattle around and mess with Ohio fans. Hey, get that? I called you guys "Ohio."
/ sits back and laughs as people who call their school OHIO freak out and make stupid signs.
Forcier made similar comments about Michigan, but a player not yet enrolled at OSU gets quoted above. The sign is fact, not fiction. It is accurate, but deceptive. It withholds information, which doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it skewed. The author may want to look up the word "fiction" and "bold-faced lie" in the dictionary. The sign does not say "scholarship athletes", so the fact that walkons are included is not a lie.
Pre-engineering (you still say you're an "Electrical/Chemical/etc major") was counted in the above. That doesn't make it wrong.
I like both schools, I visited both schools, I was accepted to both schools, I had full rides from both schools. (I went to Northwestern, because it's degree is seen as valued higher than the equalized rest of the B1G). The selectivity of Ohio State has gone up (26-30 ACT, which is valued much higher than GPA...along with community service, etc) while Michigan has regressed to average 27-31. That's not much different.
Please actually report something factual. You guys write well, but to write about education and use the word fictional, when it's not, is silly.
brilliant. love the neutrality. honestly, its skewed and misleading, but that is the way recruiting is done. are you telling me you don't think hoke and co. didnt do the same thing when recruiting against osu before the ncaa infractions were released? im not suggesting that he lied to recruits, or even told them he thought that osu was going to get a bad punishment, but i do believe, that he probably insinuated some things, or offered up some biased facts (urban would ditch after 2 years, long bowl ban, etc.)
Nice addon on the end. But I'd be careful what you say, Ohio State's "bowl" is in Columbus next November, you guys might not enjoy their bowl as much as they will.