Home
we had subs it was crazy

Primary links

  • About
    • $upport (lol)
    • Ethics
    • FAQ
    • Privacy Policy
  • Contact
  • MGoStore
  • MGoBoard
    • MGoBoard FAQ
    • Ticket spreadsheet
    • Michigan bar locator
    • Moderator Action Sticky
  • Useful Stuff
    • Depth Chart By Class
    • Unofficial Two Deep
    • 2013 Offer Board
    • Crude Bug Tracking System
    • Third Down Stats
    • Diaries, Windows Live Writer, And You
    • Michigan Future Schedules
    • User-Curated HOF
    • 2013 Recruiting Board
    • Where To Eat In Ann Arbor
Home Forums MGoBoard

Navigation

  • Forums
  • Recent posts

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

MGoElsewhere

  • @MGoBlog (Brian)
  • @aceanbender
  • @TomVH (Tom)
  • RSS Feed
  • iPhone App
  • Facebook profile
  • MGoKindle Store
  • mgo.licio.us
  • Brian @ TSB [Archive]
  • Brian @ AOL [Archive]
  • Sour Salty Bitter Sweet

Michigan Blogs

  • Big House Blog
  • Burgeoning Wolverine Star
  • Genuinely Sarcastic
  • Go Blue Michigan Wolverine
  • Holdin' The Rope
  • MGoFootball
  • MVictors
  • Maize 'n' Blue Nation
  • Maize 'n' Brew
  • Maize And Go Blue
  • Michigan Hockey Net
  • The Blog That Yost Built
  • The Hoover Street Rag
  • The M Block
  • The M Zone
  • The Wolverine Blog
  • Touch The Banner
  • UMGoBlog
  • UMHoops
  • UMTailgate
  • Wolverine Liberation Army

M On The Net

  • mgovideo
  • MGoBlue.com
  • Mike DeSimone
  • Recruiting Planet
  • The Wolverine
  • Go Blue Wolverine
  • Winged Helmet
  • UMGoBlue.com
  • MaizeRage.org
  • Puckhead
  • The M Den
  • True Blue Fan Forum

Big Ten Blogs

  • Illinois
    • A Lion Eye
    • Hail To The Orange
    • Illinois Baseball Report
    • Illinois Loyalty
  • Indiana
    • Inside The Hall
    • The Crimson Quarry
  • Iowa
    • Black Heart, Gold Pants
    • Fight For Iowa
  • Michigan State
    • The Only Colors
  • Minnesota
    • GopherHole.com
    • The Daily Gopher
    • I'm In Love With A Fringe Bowl Team
    • TNABACG
  • Nebraska
    • Big Red Network
    • Corn Nation
    • Husker Mike's Blasphemy
    • Husker Gameday
  • Northwestern
    • Sippin' On Purple
    • Lake The Posts
  • Notre Dame
    • The House Rock Built
    • One Foot Down
  • Ohio State
    • Eleven Warriors
    • Buckeye Commentary
    • Men of the Scarlet and Gray
    • Our Honor Defend
    • The Buckeye Nine
  • Penn State
    • Slow States
    • Black Shoe Diaries
    • Happy Valley Hardball
    • Penn State Clips
    • Linebacker U
    • Nittany White Out
  • Purdue
    • Boiled Sports
    • Hammer and Rails
  • Wisconsin
    • Bruce Ciskie

Links of Note

  • Baseball
    • Big Ten Hardball
    • College Baseball Today
    • The Baseball Zealot
    • The College Baseball Blog
  • Basketball
    • Ken Pomeroy
    • Basketball Prospectus
    • Midmajority
  • College Hockey
    • Chris Heisenberg
    • College Hockey Stats
    • Inside College Hockey
    • Michigan College Hockey
    • Hockey's Future
    • Sioux Sports
    • USCHO
    • Western College Hockey
    • CCHA
      • LSSU Hockey
      • Bronco Hockey Blog
  • Football
    • Smart Football
    • Every Day Should Be Saturday
    • Doctor Saturday
    • CFB Stats
    • Harold Stassen
    • NCAA D-I Stats Page
    • The Wizard Of Odds
  • General
    • Sports Central
  • Local Interest
    • The Ann Arbor Chronicle
    • Arborwiki
    • Arbor Update
    • Teeter Talk
    • Vacuum
  • Teams Of The D
    • Lions
      • Pride of Detroit
      • Fire Millen
    • Pistons
      • Detroit Bad Boys
      • Need4Sheed
    • Tigers
      • Roar Of The Tigers
      • The Detroit Tigers Weblog
      • The Daily Fungo
    • Red Wings
      • On The Wings
      • Behind The Jersey
      • Winging It In Motown
    • Michigan Sports Forum

Archive

  • May 2013 (55)
  • April 2013 (94)
  • March 2013 (104)
  • February 2013 (81)
  • January 2013 (93)
  • December 2012 (74)
  • November 2012 (142)
  • October 2012 (143)
  • September 2012 (107)
  • August 2012 (103)
  •  
  • 1 of 11
  • ››

Get Yer Tickets

Football Display Case

NFL Watches

Follow your favorite team with localtv-satellite.com: Click Here.

Site Search

Diaries

  • New
  • Popular
  • Hot
  • Does Expansion Actually Lead to More Recruits From a Certain Region?
    maizeonblueaction - 1 day ago
  • Raiding the B1G-er Big Ten: Recruiting Prospects in Maryland and Rutgers Territory
    The Mathlete - 3 days ago
  • A Cynical Take on Why Expansion May be Dead for the Forseeable Future
    maizeonblueaction - 4 days ago
  • LIGHT IT UP, AGAIN. WALLPAPER
    jonvalk - 4 days ago
  • Using Rivals' Star Ratings To Look At Big Ten Football Recruiting: 2002-2013
    LSAClassOf2000 - 5 days ago
  •  
  • 1 of 3
  • ››
more
  • Using Rivals' Star Ratings To Look At Big Ten Football Recruiting: 2002-2013
    LSAClassOf2000 - 991 views
  • UMich NFL draft history, Part III
    blueheron - 806 views
  • LIGHT IT UP, AGAIN. WALLPAPER
    jonvalk - 796 views
  • Raiding the B1G-er Big Ten: Recruiting Prospects in Maryland and Rutgers Territory
    The Mathlete - 702 views
  • A Cynical Take on Why Expansion May be Dead for the Forseeable Future
    maizeonblueaction - 684 views
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more
  • Using Rivals' Star Ratings To Look At Big Ten Football Recruiting: 2002-2013
    LSAClassOf2000 - 19 comments
  • A Cynical Take on Why Expansion May be Dead for the Forseeable Future
    maizeonblueaction - 18 comments
  • LIGHT IT UP, AGAIN. WALLPAPER
    jonvalk - 17 comments
  • Raiding the B1G-er Big Ten: Recruiting Prospects in Maryland and Rutgers Territory
    The Mathlete - 13 comments
  • Does Expansion Actually Lead to More Recruits From a Certain Region?
    maizeonblueaction - 8 comments

MGoBoard

  • New
  • Recent
  • Hot
  • Midwest Elite 7 on 7
    6 replies
  • OT: Champions League Final - Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich
    38 replies
  • Burke & THJ NBA Draft Workout Videos
    9 replies
  • Urban Meyer regrets the way his Florida tenure ended, said Alabama should have lost three games
    44 replies
  • M v. ULL Super Regional Open Thread
    80 replies
  • I'm meeting Trey Burke today!
    43 replies
  • Mike Farrell: Michigan and Hokies tied in lead for Da'Shawn Hand
    73 replies
  • Help Finding Great Video Clips
    19 replies
  • Friday night drinking thread
    33 replies
  • OT: The Tigers game is very interesting
    99 replies
  • Michigan wrestlers accused of Molotov cocktail possession suspended indefinitely
    67 replies
  • Who's Your Favorite Michigan QB?
    194 replies
  • Softball Super Regional v. Louisiana-Lafayette, game 1
    55 replies
  • Sam Webb write up on five-star center Elijah Thomas
    17 replies
  • There should be 110,000 Rubber Chickens at the ND Game
    42 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 6
  • ››
  • Urbs and his obsession with butts
    54 replies
  • Urban Meyer regrets the way his Florida tenure ended, said Alabama should have lost three games
    44 replies
  • Help Finding Great Video Clips
    19 replies
  • Midwest Elite 7 on 7
    6 replies
  • Who's Your Favorite Michigan QB?
    194 replies
  • M v. ULL Super Regional Open Thread
    80 replies
  • OT: Champions League Final - Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich
    38 replies
  • I'm meeting Trey Burke today!
    43 replies
  • Michigan wrestlers accused of Molotov cocktail possession suspended indefinitely
    67 replies
  • Mike Farrell: Michigan and Hokies tied in lead for Da'Shawn Hand
    73 replies
  • Burke & THJ NBA Draft Workout Videos
    9 replies
  • Friday night drinking thread
    33 replies
  • There should be 110,000 Rubber Chickens at the ND Game
    42 replies
  • ESPN: Trey Burke Articles/Video/Fluff/Etc.
    14 replies
  • Scouting Report: Jabrill Peppers
    160 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 6
  • ››
  • OT: Red Wings vs Hawks Game 3 Open Thread
    203 replies
  • Who's Your Favorite Michigan QB?
    194 replies
  • OT: Red Wings vs Hawks Game 4 Open Thread
    193 replies
  • Scouting Report: Jabrill Peppers
    160 replies
  • OT - Official MGoBaby Thread (you got 'em, we want to see 'em)
    151 replies
  • Who should replace ND in a long-term series?
    146 replies
  • How much do you really hate ohio?
    146 replies
  • OT? Graduatin' Season. Who had the Worst Commencement Speaker?
    141 replies
  • Speight and TomVH on Peppers
    117 replies
  • Prayers for Moore, Oklahoma
    112 replies
  • Memorial Day Weekend (here for the) posbang thread
    110 replies
  • OT: The Tigers game is very interesting
    99 replies
  • 5 star 2013 DT may not be enrolling at Notre Dame
    93 replies
  • M v. ULL Super Regional Open Thread
    80 replies
  • OT: NBA Draft Lottery
    78 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 6
  • ››

mgo.licio.us

  • Burke says Michigan can be 'just as good' next year with McGary, Robinson III leading

    yes plz

    0 comments
  • SEC coaches with tiny faces

    I don't think they changed Les at all actually

    1 comments
  • This college baseball team is the best at postgame interviews

    national champs baby

    1 comments
  • Rounding up the latest in NCAA absurdities.

    Patrick Hruby is doing God's work.

    0 comments
  • Cornell wrestler tops Michigan's Trey Burke for Sports Illustrated award | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

    first comment: "EVERY ATHLETE HAS ASPIRATIONS OF WINNING AND WE HAVE OUR FAVORITES BUT IT IS ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO OTHER STUDENTS ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS, TOO!"

    0 comments
  • Burke hearing he'll go two through six in NBA draft

    stupid Pistons and their refusal to tank properly

    0 comments
  • 2013 NHL Draft Prospect: Andrew Copp

    rundown of Michigan's riser

    0 comments
  • Michigan's key returnee: Glenn Robinson

    needs moar usage

    0 comments
  • Former Arkansas QB Brandon Mitchell transferring to NC State

    so much for that

    0 comments
  • The B1G List: Ranking the State Fossils of the Big Ten

    This list is completely arbitrary and not a genuine analysis of the relative merits of state fossils.

    0 comments
  • Trey Burke turns to inner circle to prepare for NBA draft

    will be michigan's highest pick in a while

    2 comments
  • B1G assistant coach salaries on the rise

    money has to go somewhere

    0 comments
  • Tim Hardaway Jr. is motivated by his critics and doubters, and supremely confident in his ability

    I am only motivated by people who have no opinion about me.

    0 comments
  • Big Ten football procrastinates on parity-based scheduling, and nothing ever changes

    the just released schedules were a flat-out statement that the B10 doesn't believe SOS will matter in playoff selection

    1 comments
  • Michigan's Glenn Robinson III, Mitch McGary ranked inside top 20 on ESPN's 2014 draft board

    but I thought that draft was supposed to be incredibly loaded?

    1 comments
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more

NCAA Slams 'Bama for Stuff That Doesn't Matter

10 posts / 0 new
Login or register to post comments
Last post
June 14th, 2009 at 8:41 PM
#1
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 48336
NCAA Slams 'Bama for Stuff That Doesn't Matter

So if you're running a football program, what's the dirtiest thing you could possibly do?

  • Have scholars take your players' tests for them?
  • Yank scholarships to players who don't perform?
  • Cover up sexual abuse scandals committed by your players?
  • Or (gasp) look the other way when your players buy their buddies some textbooks on your dime.

For an explanation of what went down, here's this via Rivals, via Yahoo, via the All-Powerful Internets:

The NCAA’s Committee on Infractions said Thursday the football team must forfeit an unspecified number of wins in which any of seven players took part during 2005-2007. The university identified the seven as “intentional wrongdoers.”

The NCAA said that 201 student-athletes in the 16 sports, including men’s basketball, obtained “impermissible benefits” by using their scholarships to obtain free textbooks for other students. It also found the university guilty of “failure to monitor.”

This would matter more to me if the NCAA wasn't such a joke on the things that matter. Yes, they have a rule against paying them to play. Yes, the books they get for their scholarships are supposed to only be for players.

But it's not like this would be the first time a student with a textbook hookup helped another student. Does Ulrichs deserve to have a separate purchase for every student who takes a certain class?

I'll come clean, too: when I was in college, I gave pot to a Shaman Drum employee for cheap books.

Sorry, guys, that 1999 broomball championship never happened.

I see the harm for the program, who has to foot the bill for the buddies' books. But how does this become an NCAA issue? How did the hookup affect play? What's the actual damage of a few friends of athletes getting textbooks? It's not like they used their scholarships on Fifths of SoCo (memory shudder). They got more textbooks for cash-strapped students. There are worse things in the world.

One one hand, it looks like the NCAA, whose idea of "amateur" is questionable at best, is trying to make a show of coming down hard without, you know, actually coming down hard.

On the other hand, Bama is a dirty, dirty program. Perhaps this is the NCAA harassing the mob, nothing more.

So what's the feeling of the board? Is this the NCAA getting Capone through tax evasion, or just an arbitrary application of a capricious rule?

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

Top
  • Login or register to post comments
Tags:
  • MGoBoard
  • Alabama
  • books
  • oversigning recruiting Alabama Saban
  • vacated wins

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
June 14th, 2009 at 9:17 PM | a couple of friends i had on (Score:1)
turbo cool
turbo cool's picture
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 962

a couple of friends i had on the mich f'ball team wanted to do this but were just too lazy to get around to it. this can happen anywhere and is probably the most minor of minor infractions.

i only respect other superfans

  • Login or register to post comments
June 14th, 2009 at 11:02 PM | Michigan does it this way (Score:1)
Emil Faber
Joined: 07/06/2008
MGoPoints: 120

"NCAA rules permit institutions to provide required course-related books to student-athletes authorized to receive a book loan as part of their athletics grant-in-aid. Big Ten rules require institutions to provide the use (e.g., loan) rather than the actual cost of required course-related books. Michigan policy requires student-athletes to return their books from the prior academic term before they may receive their book loan for a new term. Student-athletes who fail to return their books in a timely manner will incur a charge on their student account in the amount of the market value of the books that were not returned."

http://www.mgoblue.com/uploadedFiles/Sections/Compliance/Articles/compli... about pg 125

Alabama knowingly used a system that allowed the athletes to cheat.

  • Login or register to post comments
June 14th, 2009 at 9:46 PM | Alabama is probably getting (Score:1)
MaizeAndBlueWahoo
MaizeAndBlueWahoo's picture
Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 11829

Alabama is probably getting slammed harder than they would because they have a long and storied history of rule-disregarding. When you can stand out from the pack and make a name for yourself in the SEC in the cheating department, that is bad. They came oh so close to the death penalty earlier this decade and if their name had been Middle Tennessee, they'd probably have got it. I don't think they'd have lost the wins if they didn't have that history.

That said, win-stripping is silly. I'm all in favor of it for Half-Ass-U because I want to see Bowden fall short of JoePa for the wins record, but let's face it, a game was played a certain Saturday afternoon and somebody won and it wasn't Alabama's or FSU's opponent. I mean, if Michigan didn't officially play in the Final Four, who'd UNC beat? Not like we can escape getting made fun of for Chris Webber's time out just because it's not in the record book. It's just a silly technicality thing and not a real deterrent. If you ask me, the NCAA needs to focus a lot more on making it harder for cheating teams to win in the future rather than erasing their past ones.

"We've beaten Michigan the last four years.  So where's the threat?"

- Mark Dantonio

Blogging the Virginia Cavaliers at http://fromoldvirginia.blogspot.com/<

  • Login or register to post comments
June 14th, 2009 at 9:53 PM | Why don't you check.... (Score:1)
jg2112
jg2112's picture
Joined: 11/25/2008
MGoPoints: 5837

...the three other posts about this same topic? Seriously, there is a lot of opinion and back and forth in those posts.

  • Login or register to post comments
June 15th, 2009 at 6:26 AM | Looked around -- not too (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 48336

Looked around -- not too hard, but scrolled through about 5 pages of topics, and didn't see. Sorry for the double-up.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
June 14th, 2009 at 10:30 PM | It sucks either way.... (Score:1)
Tater
Tater's picture
Joined: 08/13/2008
MGoPoints: 10385

Wahoo wrote:
"If you ask me, the NCAA needs to focus a lot more on making it harder for cheating teams to win in the future rather than erasing their past ones."

I sorta agree with this, but there is a tightrope balancing act here. Coaches get fired when a lot of this stuff happens on their watch, anyway, so why would they care about future sanctions?

I have a solution that I think would keep coaches from looking the other way: ban the coaches from coaching in the NCAA for the amount of years they would have teams vacate victories.

In other words, if they are supposed to vacate 2005-2007, ban the coaches from working in the NCAA for however many years they were there. I have a feeling that would clean up a lot of what goes on.

Ultimately, though, I would rather see the NCAA end shamateurism and let players get paid whatever they can get for themselves. They should burn most of the rulebook and let the market police the players and programs. I don't think they should even have to go to class. In most of the elite programs, the "student-athletes" are totally insulated from routine student life anyway. Why not just end the charade and let them be the mercenaries they are?

The schools would win because they would get back the money they pay the NCAA to hire a compliance staff and the money they pay their own compliance staffs, the NCAA would win because they would no longer have the headaches and scandals caused by enforcement, the boosters would win because they could throw their money around and brag about it, and the players would win because they would get some money for their work.

I guess the NCAA doesn't like it when so many people win.

 

 

 

  • Login or register to post comments
June 15th, 2009 at 7:48 AM | NCAA Philosophy (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 48336

Not every student athlete is completely insulated from the school they attend.

Thousands of recruits matriculate to universities every year with scholarships -- how many of these men will ever make their careers in football? Coaches will tell Top 250 recruits that they will prepare them for the NFL, but even for them the chances are slim of making their way in the world through football. That's including Arena, Canadian, European, etc., leagues.

As far as the participants are concerned, college sports are the best preparatory leagues out there. You should see how much shit minor league baseball players and hockey players are put through. While playing for nobody. Knowing that if one teammate gets too hot he could get plucked any moment. And if you burn out, you're left with...what?

If you win a league championship in the woods...

The NFL is the noble lie told to college recruits to get them to come to a lot of these schools. But the NCAA knows that its true value, the quid pro quo with these non-pros, comes from the fact that they can provide a free education to fall back on.

A typical freshman athlete, when he signs his NCAA papers, is at a weakened negotiating position. In general, he has a 20 percent chance of playing pro football beyond college. He has a 10 percent chance of playing pro football long enough to make enough money to make a difference in his life. He has a 5 percent chance of making pro football his main career. He has a less than 1 percent chance of being an NFL regular, and less than that of being a star.

The NCAA provides an education to all of these failures using the value generated by the successes, and their brands and programs. That's their main payment to the athletes: a college education for all of them, regardless of what happens on the football field. Those who won't need it are the lucky few who will make their way in football. Those who do are the unlucky majority. That is fair. That's their business model.

The NCAA should keep that in mind when coming down on a player for getting wedding gifts over $75, or a program whose athletes used their scholarships for more than their intended purpose. Dogmatism is as sure a sign as any that someone hasn't thought through their own beliefs. The NCAA should be able to tell what business opportunities for their athletes don't compromise the mission, or at the very least figure out how to use the value of the players to their benefit.

We recently hashed out the use of their likenesses on EA Sports' NCAA Football series. That's another perfect example of the NCAA not getting it. There's value here, an opportunity to sell not just the game's stars but to capitalize on all of them. The athletes would be overwhelmingly in favor of having their names used along with their faces. So why try to skim legality to use their likenesses without license? License the whole thing, and use the revenue to provide continuing education for the most deserving athletes or something.

THE VEIL OF IGNORANCE

As for commercials and such, understand that it would give certain schools an unfair advantage. Think about it: if you could make money by appearing in advertisements, why go to any school outside of Los Angeles? Think USC is a powerhouse now, wait until signing an L.O.I. with Pete Carroll comes with an automatic $20,000 for commercial appearances in the place where they film 90 percent of commercials.

And where do you draw the line? Imagine if a car dealership in Columbus could pay Terrelle Pryor to hang around and shake hands with potential customers. Imagine the kind of business that NYPD could do if Tate Forcier was behind the counter making your Calzone. Imagine how hard it would be for these guys to make grades when every business in town is offering up hundreds or thousands of dollars to come do this, sign that, stand for this, etc.

Imagine trying to recruit against a school that could provide all these instant financial incentives.

The answer is for the NCAA to simply control all of it, and to split the funds equally among every student athlete. It will never be enough to make a difference to one athlete personally. Except there's this: those who don't have a future in football become the primary beneficiaries of the few extra dollars (figure it ends up being about $400 per athlete per annum, which isn't really all that much); but those who do have a future as pro football players -- the guys actually doing the commercials -- would benefit from endorsement experience.

Is it fair that, say, a Reggie Bush who is offered $2 million to sponsor a new shoe, only sees a few hundred of it? Well, go back to the beginning, when he signed his NCAA Contract, when even a young high school "stud" like him had a better chance of not making it than becoming his generation's brightest college football star. This is called the "veil of ignorance." That's how I justify the NCAA doling out the dough it makes on its athletes, rather than letting the market dictate.

The point is, then, that the NCAA has lost sight of its mission. They don't need to stick to this dogma of "amateur" versus "professional." Rather, they're in a unique position to capitalize on their brand and share that with their employees. Today, it's overreacting to books. What will be the next wedge? How hypocritical can they be before we witness the first-ever college football players' strike?

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
June 15th, 2009 at 9:15 AM | Well, that was incredibly (Score:1)
MaizeAndBlueWahoo
MaizeAndBlueWahoo's picture
Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 11829

Well, that was incredibly long, but....yes, absolutely: "allowing football players to make what money they can" is code for "the school with the richest boosters wins." Free agency. That's what it is: free agency. Because college football has too much parity as it is, let's swing the balance in favor of any school that can find a booster to provide a suddenly legal million-dollar handshake.

I challenge anyone to find a single student on a college campus who has a better deal than a football or basketball player, save maybe the sons and daughters of filthy rich legacy alums. Better deal from the school, I mean.

"We've beaten Michigan the last four years.  So where's the threat?"

- Mark Dantonio

Blogging the Virginia Cavaliers at http://fromoldvirginia.blogspot.com/<

  • Login or register to post comments
June 15th, 2009 at 9:54 AM | Selling / giving away (Score:1)
Eck Sentrik
Eck Sentrik's picture
Joined: 12/08/2008
MGoPoints: 2876

textbooks is a gateway infraction. It's a slippery slope. No sugarcoat.

all the dude wanted was his rug back...

  • Login or register to post comments
Powered by Pressflow, an open source content management system
Theme provided by Roopletheme; sidebars adapted from Chris Murphy.