MSU Postgame Presser: Everyone
Trash.
Brady Hoke
Opening remarks: “First I have to give Mark and his staff credit -- and their team. They outcoached us and outplayed us. We have to do a much better job with coaching this football team in a lot of ways. Our kids, I think they fought when they were down. I thought they responded well. To be honest, I don’t think they ever thought they were going to lose the game until the game was over.”
Was Denard taken out because he was hurt or was it for another reason? “He got beat up a little bit, yeah.”
What happened on that fourth-and-one call? “We’ve gotten many first downs with that play. Same play. The guy jumps, we send the one guy in motion. We’ve gotten touchdowns, too. This was just an extension of that play.”
Looked like you were trying to call timeout. Did you see something you didn’t like? “Yeah, I saw the 25-second clock rolling to zero. I think we got away with one, to be honest with you.”
What do you think about how Denard played? “He made some things happen. And there were a couple times -- he always plays excited with a lot of energy. On the interception, I don’t know what he saw. I think he held it in there.”
On the play Denard got injured, was that a cheap shot? “Oh I have no clue. I didn’t see it, to be honest with you. My eyes were down the field.”
Was Denard playing too excited a problem? “I don’t think so. I thought our kids prepared well all week. I think we had the two penalties in the first half for the delays. Those are some communication things that we have to do a better job with.”
How much more are you going to have to get out of your running back group? “Well, to get it out of our running back group, we have to get it out of our front first. I think there’s some opportunities we missed a little bit, but at the same time I don’t know how much movement we got consistently at the line of scrimmage.”
Was the number of personal foul penalties they committed over the line for you? “I don’t know. Shoot, I’m worried about Michigan.”
Jordan said he thought MSU was more physical and beat your team up. “I don’t know if we got beat up. I think they were physical, and I think this game always is physical.”
Denard’s injury -- is it serious? “I don’t know what it is yet.”
Can you talk about philosophy of alternating Devin and Denard? “Yeah, we thought we may do some of that, and part of what pushed it over a little more was that it was a windy day, and I think Devin at times can throw the ball a little more accurately.”
How do you expect your players to react to this? “I expect them to act like a Michigan football team, and that means they’re going to come to work.”
What happened on the first series of the second half on the kickoff and their first possession? “I don’t think we tackled well at all … We didn’t tackle very well, they executed the drive. I think two third down conversions in there, maybe three, that you’ve got to be in the position to stop it. And then the play at the end, when they scored, I don’t know if you could be in a better defensive call.”
Do you think your offense was a little too creative at points? “No. I don’t know about that. I think there’s some elements in there -- when Denard carries the jet sweep around there, he’s pretty dangerous. He’s about two steps from breaking both of them for home runs. I don’t think so.”
They brought a lot of pressure. What were they doing that was so successful? “Well they were overloading you a little bit. Mark [Dantonio] did a good job. Mark is a good defensive coach. Believe me, his fingerprints are all over that defense. They overloaded us a little bit. They hit their timing. They did a nice job of jumping snap counts. I think they did things the way you’re supposed to.”
Is Taylor Lewan healthy? “There’s not a healthy guy in our whole locker room. Everybody’s beat up. That’s just part of football. I think this bye week, it’s probably at a good time.”
Were they beat up because of today? “They’ve been beat up all -- it’s just part of football.”
In hindsight, would you have called the fourth-and-one play differently? “You sneak it, you run the power play -- multiple things that you could have done. We’ve been very successful in the last two years with that same play.”
Was that your call or Al’s call? “Al makes the call. I’m the one that said, ‘Go for it.’ ”
Any trend to the incompletions? “I think there’s more competition probably at the line of scrimmage, when you look at receivers getting off and running routes. I don’t think we ran bad routes. I won’t know that until I watch tape.”
Did you prepare your players for the dirty play? “No. I don’t know how they played dirty. They had some personal fouls and late hits on the quarterback. You can get those all the time.”
William Gholston threw a punch at Lewan. “I didn’t see it.”
What was with the kickoff to start the second half? Were you thinking about an onside kick? “No. We were trying to squib it because we didn’t think we would get it exactly where we wanted it depth wise, and he probably hit it not as well as he probably would have liked to hit it.”
Whose decision was it to break out the jerseys? “Well it was neat. It was ‘74, ‘75? We were white on white. There’s a lot of decision-makers.”
You said you thought this team was overrated. What came out from this game to give you proof of that? “Well, besides losing? I think they were close to 200 yards rushing the football. We had 82. That’s pretty much it.”
Is this bye week a good thing for your team? “Yeah from a health standpoint, it is.”
How resilient is this team? Were heads hanging in the locker room? “They need to feel this one. We all need to feel this one for a while. But we’ll turn the page.”
Jordan Kovacs
What was the reaction to losing to MSU for the fourth year in a row? “Not good.”
What happened out there? “They did what we thought they were going to do. They came out and pounded us with the football. They were the better team. You have to give them some credit … So we’re going to take this and regroup from there.”
After a loss like this, are you glad you have two weeks off or do you want to play again right away? “Um, physically, it’s probably a good thing, but mentally we’re ready to move on to the next one and looking forward to the next game. So it’s probably a good thing that we have a bye week and we can physically get healthy, but at the same time. I’m hungry for the next one.”
Was there any adjustment they made at halftime on offense? “No, I think they stuck to their game plan. They just ran the football.”
After you recovered the fumble, did you think the comeback was on? “Yeah, the whole game we thought we were going to win until the two zeros were on the clock. The whole time we thought we were going to win the game.”
Do you think they were tougher? “I think they were definitely more physical. They pounded us. They beat us up. But we’re going to take it and we’re going to improve from here. But like I said, you have to give them a lot of credit.”
Is this team different from the past few years? Are you better prepared to deal with this loss without sliding downhill? “No doubt. I think it’s easy to say, it’s the same Michigan team the last two years, but I have no doubt in my mind that we’re not. We’re going to improve, we’re going to learn from this game, and we’re going to win.”
How difficult is it for you say that they were more physical and they beat you up? “It’s tough. They just ran the ball downhill. It’s nothing that we weren’t expecting, and we didn’t do a good enough job today.”
Were they chippier than you thought they might be? “No. I’ve played in this game before, so I know how the game goes.”
Mike Martin
Was their success running the ball more because of their line or because of their running backs? “It was collectively as a defense -- we didn’t execute. I have to watch the film, but I can put money on that guys weren’t where they were supposed to be, and guys simply weren’t executing what we need to do and weren’t playing Michigan defense.”
How tough is it to swallow this loss? “It’s tough. We don’t want that to happen. With any team, especially with this team. But you have to give them credit. They played well today, and they’re a good football team. So plain and simple, today just didn’t go our way.”
Can you take anything good from today? “Not right now, no. But when we look at the film -- today is going to be tough, but we’ll stop and bounce back. The thing about this team I know for a fact is that this team is going to bounce back. Guys are hungry for the next game. That’s the biggest difference in this team amongst other things. This team’s hungry and ready to go.”
Do you feel like they beat you up? “I feel good. I’m not beat up. I don’t think they beat us up. When I think of beat up, I think bullied. We just didn’t execute. We just didn’t play Michigan defense. We didn’t play the way we needed to play from start to finish. Just going to have to watch the film and see what happens.”
Do you think they played dirty today? “I mean, we knew what type of game this was going to be. It was going to be a tough, physical game, and coach talked about keeping our poise and composure as a football team. So I think we did a good job on that side of it, and we just have to do a better job with taking coaching and executing what the coaches tell us to do.”
Were you expecting it to be like this? “I mean, who doesn’t know what this type of game is. It’s a tough, physical game, period. It’s an in-state rival, and it’s big for both teams. That’s what it’s all about.”
You think they won with class? “I don’t worry about that. They have a right to celebrate. They won. They’re excited. I tip my hat to them.”
What makes you so certain you will bounce back unlike previous years? “Just everything. I think that’s something where you have to be in the locker room and know that. It’s something I can’t really explain, but I know that we have great leadership on this team. We have a bye week coming up, and I know guys are going to be hungry. Tomorrow we’re going to be in there watching film, looking to see what we can do to get better. The seniors and these leaders are going to get this team ready.”
Anything they did offensively surprise you? “No. They executed their game plan and pretty much that’s what we practiced. I just don’t think that on our side of it, we did what we needed to do.”
Do you feel like your offense put you guys in a hole? “I mean, yeah, you never know how a game’s going to go. We’re playing for those guys they’re playing for us. We have each other’s backs. Whatever happens in a game happens. We talked about it on the sidelines -- we just have to control what we can control. We just have to do a better job of complementing each other offensively and defensively.”
When did you find out about the jerseys? “It was a surprise to us. When we came back from warmups they were in our lockers.”
Denard Robinson
What happened on the play where you were injured? “I got a little dinged up.”
Was it your decision or the coaches’ decision not to let you back in the game? “I mean, it’s always up to the trainers.”
Is it concussion-related? “No, I don’t think so.”
Was it a cheap shot? “I don’t know.”
Did you feel like they were playing dirty? “No. We were playing football. It’s a dirty game.”
Is this a game where you’re going to look back on and wonder “what if”? “Oh no. We have to move forward and we have to learn from this game. That’s the biggest thing, learn from this game and play Michigan football. The Big Ten championship’s still out there.”
On the fourth-and-one call, what were you seeing before the snap? “We had what we wanted, and we called it at the time, and we just have to execute.”
What were you supposed to look for? “I mean, if you watch the game you’ll see what I was looking for. I can’t explain it.”
Didn’t look like you had time to look for it, though. “Yeah, that was the biggest thing. We just didn’t play football.”
Did you see the corner coming? “I saw him at the last second.”
Why were you struggling throwing the football today? “No reason. Just have to make throws.”
What did you see on the pick six? “Me and Vince weren’t on the same page. It wasn’t anything we didn’t see. Just wasn’t on the same page.”
Are you worried about being able to play in two weeks due to your injury? “Oh no, we have two weeks, and our training staff is one of the best in the country, and I know they’re going to get me back.”
How difficult was it to pass with the windy conditions today? “It wasn’t that difficult. Both of us played in the same weather and the same stadium.”
Are there any plays you wish you had back? “Oh yeah. Of course through the game you’re going to have that, but you have to continue playing. Keep playing, that’s all.”
Why do you think this year’s team is different? “I mean, come on. We’re just going to be ready to fight, and we’re never going to quit. We’re never quitting. Just hold each other accountable and just go out there and play Michigan football. Just keep going.”
Did you think this fourth quarter was going to be like the fourth quarter against Notre Dame? “We had a lot of opportunities to come back in the game and keep the game in reach, and we just didn’t execute.”
October 15th, 2011 at 10:16 PM ^
that I kinda agreed with, then it sort of degenerated.
October 15th, 2011 at 11:23 PM ^
"Commenting about something you don't like is the purpose of having a forum." Well, you're wrong again, its purpose is for intelligent discussion - if you just want to vent your spleen without anyone commenting, go outside and vent to the universe. But on that one we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Most of your reply here is whining about me disagreeing with you, and calling me a name (bully). Hypocrite much? Defend your opinion, I'm willing to listen - hell maybe you're seeing something I don't. I'm not always right, but at least I have a reason for my opinion before I put it out there - you're mad because I asked you to understand forum implies comment AND reply.
Our offense was anemic last year against anything resembling a quality defense, as it would have been this year. Our defense was unforgivable last year, and (opinion) gave me no reason to hope it would have gotten any better with another year. So what you're saying is that you'd like more of last year? Defend that, please.
Here's my opinion - Borges blew it today, he had a bad game. He's also a better offensive mind than Rod, and gives us a better chance in the future against EVERY team, when we have more kids to suit. Play today's game 5 times - we're going to come out on top 2 of them - Sparty this year is a more complete team (even if, probably because they include dirty criminals) - but they did try to hand us the game. Play it under Rod's staff, we come out 0. Play it 20 times and we might win once w/ Rod. Thanks, I'll stick w/ Hoke.
Let's get back to your initial opinion - you'd like to become a one-dimensional offense where we expose our best weapon to 40+ potentially devastating hits every game for a whole season... In what black hole universe do you exist where you think this could possibly win us more games?!?
So thanks, I'll opt not to take up that last suggestion of yours.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:26 AM ^
Calling someone a "whiner" for expressing their opinion, and then backing off it, is something you can't recover from. It's low brow, low intellect, low IQ. I'm all for intelligent discussion but labeling someone you don't agree with a "whiner" is anything but. And then calling me a hypocrite for pointing this out to you is the stuff of MLIVE.
Regardless, I'll explain my second post again - which AGAIN was defending what I wrote in my first post. And I'll make it really simple for you okay?
If running Denard Robinson 40 times in one game = victory, then I'll take it. Since we've never actually tried that approach and failed, I'll let people like you who obviously don't have a good fucking memory, imply that "this has been tried before" and hasn't worked. Check the fucking tapes. Check the box scores. Check your fucking memory.
IT IS MY OPINION, that if we fucking give the ball to Denard every fucking possession, 3 straight times, on 3 straight fucking runs (with his legs), we will win every fucking game, even if the entire 11-man fucking defense sells out on it every fucking time. He will get 10 yards on his own. Never have we tried it because the assumption is that being one-dimensional will not work. There is no history to support that.
Denard got nicked up last year, which is going to happen whether he runs it 2 times a game or 40. You don't know which single play is going to knock him out of the game. And his backup is / has been very competent.
My point is, WHY THE FUCK are we continuously putting Denard in positions that don't suit his skill set? He is a running QB and a magnificent one at that. Borges barely exploited that today and that is why we lost. Period.
And to say that Al Borges is a "better offensive mind than Rod" makes me cringe for having spent time responding to your posts. If you're that fucking clueless you really aren't worth expending any time or anger towards. It's just that 'your type' represents a large faction of our fanbase that supported getting rid of Rodriguez before he had a legit chance to win with his guys. And now we're back to the same bullshit I had to endure for the 30 years before RR was brought in.
And you know what? I fucking hate people like you, to be honest. People like you, Dave Brandon, the majority of Mgoblog posters these days, and whoever else can form a reasonable argument for getting rid of the best chance we ever had at being an elite program in our lifetimes. Michigan football is a sliver of pleasure. Despite our losses in the RR era, it was the greatest 3 years of watching Michigan football I ever witnessed.
October 16th, 2011 at 2:35 AM ^
all the amazing ignorance spewed forth, and it all comes down to one thing. Rod will never coach for this school again, so go pick a different school to root for, Michigan will be better off for it. There's lots of schools that love Rod's style, and play in leagues where they don't play defense so it could even work. Good luck to you,
You endured? You endured 30 of the greatest years of college football ever with the greatest program in college football. How awful that you had to endure conference championships in 82, 86, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 97, 98, 00, 03 and 04 - one every 2.5 years, HOW AWFUL. How terrible that you had to suffer through those 26 straight bowl appearances, part of the second longest streak ever. Such pain that you had to watch Michigan be able to compete with anyone, anytime - there was never an assumed loss. SHAME on Blue for only giving you two Heisman's and kids you could be proud of, and a program beyond reproach.
Then in came Rod. Who drove off a Heisman caliber quarterback because he wouldn't even try to adapt. Who gave us the three worst defenses in school history because he wouldn't consider anything but his own system. Who put himself above, "The team, the team, the team." Who failed us sir, FAILED US, the fans. He whined too, and made excuses, and didn't deserve to be here. But at least he was clearly your coach - he thought just by wanting something to be true he could make it so.
If that's what you want sir, then go be a fan elsewhere. I'll sit and watch my team play honest ball, with honest kids the right way. It's impossible to prove, and so what, but I'll tell you now, Michigan will win a national championship again playing Michigan football before it ever would have with Rod at the helm.
If you've really "endured" 30 years of Blue, then it implies you're what in your 40's? 50's? whatever, you're old enough to know better, and to have a little more self-respect, that last post was really quite difficult to endure reading.
You do get the fact that Denard was out of almost every game last season for injury, yes? That he couldn't endure the pounding he took with the carries he got, yes? So I'm going to ask again - in what reality could we win when we'd have to have the fullback literally throwing his broken body forward towards the line of scrimmage to make it to 40?
But hey, what do I know, I think winning more conference championships than anybody, more consistently, more victorys than anybody, more national championships than anybody, 6th most NFL players, gives the Blue a certain amount of right to make up its own mind about the best course to accomplish our goals.
/salute
October 16th, 2011 at 12:42 PM ^
there was some ignorance listed here, but that's your right to believe I supose. The largest piece of pure ignorance, and bordering on slander, is the implication in your comment that the kids here during RR were somehow not "honest kids" playing "honest ball." Care to retract the inference?
Another, less objectionable but no less wrong statement is your (and it's a common fan problem, the only problem is that if you know enough football you would not believe it) is that the spread ("Rod's style") doesn't work unless you are in a league "that doesn't play defense." Oh, you mean like the SEC? Let me be clear--this is not a differing opinion--you are factually wrong.
October 16th, 2011 at 3:29 PM ^
Valid - I admit I let my temper get away from me.
The kids playing now, a lot of them anyway, are Rod's recruits, and are "honest kids" - and I appreciate all of them. They're Michigan men, no argument.
What I think I was trying to get at with that comment, without successfully saying it, is that, going back over the last few decades - over the course of the 30 years that the OP has had to "endure", is that teams that have become consistent national title winners have almost all ended up in some level of NCAA heat. Me, give me a team that controls what it can control - whether or not it wins the Big 10. That will be enough. We will win some national titles, we will have our share of top 5/10 ranking finishes. Trying for subjective titles is a pipe dream that leads to decisions I am proud my team has never made.
As far as Rod's style not working... Allow me to clarify slightly. I have nothing against the spread, or even the 3-3-5 per se. I have a problem with the way Rod put himself (his style) above the team. He came into Michigan with a team built for a pro style. Instead of adapting and figuring out how to make use of the skills around him, he alienated players and forced us into something, and gave us something we couldn't be proud of. He whined about "empty cupboards" instead of adapting to the skills at hand. Then he got to year 2, still couldn't adapt, brought in a defensive coordinator who himself couldn't adapt to the style Rod couldn't get away from, and still couldn't get us to a bowl game. He threw kids under the bus for decisions (Mesko's punt). Then last year he had little left in the way of excuses and gave us a team that got embarassed against good competition, and had to win in shoot outs against even FCS UMass.
"Michigan football" in my opinion - has nothing whatsoever to do with a given style, system or format - it has to do with playing intelligently, playing great fundamentals (fundamentals that don't change no matter what style a team uses), and being able to adapt and out think opponents in order to win football games. Jan. 1 '98. Lloyd wasn't scoring on WSU with the offense that had worked well enough all year, so we threw the 2 longest (in the air) passes all year, and got the points up. It wasn't Lloyd's instincts, but we did what we had to. My issue with Rod isn't the spread or the 3-3-5, it's that he gave us poor fundamental football, wouldn't adapt to the players or to situations, and no - those things won't work in the SEC, or in most conferences.
If you want me to admit I went too far, yeah, you're probably right, but I stand by my pleasure that Rod is gone, and my belief that we will be a better team under Hoke.
October 16th, 2011 at 6:02 AM ^
yeah, shouldn't post a second, but I just reread, and I'm still stinging on the game, so I'll lament by poking holes in your words -
"You don't know which single play is going to knock him out of the game."
That's why running him 40 times can't work. Every run has a potential to injure, and thus a 40 carry game puts those chances into the 99% range. Your plan doesn't work in any sane sensibility, and history proved it. Why else did he miss time in almost every game last year? I don't need to, "Check (my) ... memory" sexual or otherwise. He didn't make it to 40 carries because he COULDN'T. He's not superhuman, he's just very talented.
"WHY ... are we continuously putting Denard in positions that don't suit his skill set?"
Three reasons. 1. because being one-dimensional doesn't work. OSU vs. MSU proved that. 2. because Denard wants to win. Given that #1 is fact - then only running him means we lose more. 3. Just because something isn't one's specialty doesn't mean it's not within their skill set. Clearly logic isn't your specialty, and yet you keep replying.
"before he had a legit chance to win with his guys."
Whiny excuses. The cupboard wasn't empty. Good coaches win, period. Rod is a coward. Reality was there, he stood his ground on his system that was't working and whined for 3 years about getting the right kids for his system. You're being a hypocrite again, btw - you're blaming Borges for not being successful w/o giving him a "legit chance". Hoke doesn't have the right kids for his system, and is winning. OMG how could that have happened? You mean a coach doesn't need 4 years of whiny excuses before we can start expecting something out of him? We're still in a decent position to challenge for the Big Ten championship. Did Rod finish in the top half of the league any of his 3 years? Good coaches win. Everything else is excuses.
"I ... hate people like you"
That the only things you know about me is that I have better reading comprehension than you and that I don't suffer bad fans (and that I disagree with you) - I have to assume you're just trying to help me prove my point now. I said you're a coaching bigot. You're not willing to give Borges or Hoke a chance, you want Rod back after 1 loss. I called you whiny and you're throwing f-bomb strewn temper tantrums at me. Names are only inappropriate if they're inaccurate - otherwise they're just adjectives.
"being an elite program"
We ARE an elite program sir. It's fans like you that don't understand what that term means that brought Rod in, and cost us the bowl streak, and got us penalized by the NCAA, and made me lose faith in my team. During my time as a fan I never once went into a game expecting to lose. Under Rich I didn't start out that way, but especially after the first year, and as things continued decending, what did Rod give me to expect besides to assume every 3rd and short against us would convert, and be surprised when they didn't. To expect that I would be embarassed by our tackling and fundamentals. To expect to lose, embarassingly at times, including his only bowl - if you went into that game thinking anything besides "please don't let it be lopsided" you weren't watching that season. Rod made us a joke sir - and if that's what you want, then I repeat my other post - go elsewhere, you don't deserve to be a Wolverine.
October 16th, 2011 at 3:46 PM ^
This is pointless. It all boils down to how a person defines and values classy and elite.
Regarding the former, I did not see Michigan's classy image eroding under RR. Sure, yourself, the media, LLoyd Carr, Dave Brandon and Justin Boren saw a complete departure from what it means to be a Michigan Man (whatever that is), but I didn't. I liked the way RR conducted himself. He gave genuine answers and was interesting to listen to. Brady Hoke, while a good guy, is very boring to listen to. I just don't think Michigan has ever had anyone at the helm who wasn't classy and therefore classiness isn't a big consideration for me. You see it differently. Fine.
As far as Michigan being elite, I don't think we have been in the modern era. Obviously you do. My definition of "elite" involves regularly competing for national championships, not just Big 10 Championships. I believe there are elite coaches who are capable of taking their teams to elite levels at various stages of their careers.
Bobby Bowden was an elite coach at one time. I think Miami had a run of coaches that were good enough to take advantage of South Florida talent and sustain an elite run. Bob Stoops, Jim Tressel, Urban Meyer, Nick Saban and Pete Carroll are the most recent examples of elite coaches. Personally, I think Brian Kelly has a good chance of being an elite coach at ND, someday in the not-too-distant future. I think Brian Kelly is a good football coach, and an intelligent, articulate guy. A lot of people, perhaps yourself included, see it differently.
Bo was a great coach and won a lot. However, I do not think Michigan was an elite program under his guidance. His focus on Big 10 championships left us vulnerable for letdowns in bowl games. Lloyd Carr was a great guy, great ambassador, but a mediocre coach. He had a lot of talent -- it's difficult not too at Michigan -- but his schemes were predictable and he was often playing to the level of his competition. Without Woodson (a Moeller recruit) we wouldn't be talking about his National Championship in 1997. Lloyd accomplished no more and no less than Larry Coker at Miami, who was run out of town by a much more demanding fan base.
To be clear, Rich Rodriguez has not achieved elite status. Not at West Virginia and obviously not at Michigan. But I think he at least has the potential. I was actually in favor of firing him, if Brandon could have gotten Harbaugh or even Les Miles because both of them had equal potential of being elite for Michigan and were better fits.
It is my hunch that Brady Hoke is not an elite coach. I base this on a few things, like hearing him speak, where he got his training and what types of strategies he wishes to deploy (Bo, Lloyd), his stated goals (to win Big 10 championships) and the 47-50 record he compiled before coming here. Sure he could 'luck into' one BCS championship game with guys like Denard & Devin (that he didn't recruit) and maybe even win one, like a Gene Chizik (who inherited Cam Newton), but I do not believe he is an elite coach. He may get good results, much like his mentors, but I don't see the upside.
If you can't bring in a proven elite coach, it's the upside you look for. What RR did at WVU showed the potential. I'd argue that Urban Meyer's results at BGSU and Utah were much more intriguing than what Hoke accomplished at Ball State and SDSU (similar programs).
But arguing any of this is pointless if you don't share the same definition of success. I'd rather have 3 bad results years like we had under RR if it paved the way for elite down the road than a return to the Bo & Lloyd years. Under RR, we had guys like Denard, Devin Gardner, Vincent Smith, Demetrius Hart and Sammy Watkins looking at Michigan. Speed guys, and a lot of them from the South! Where have the majority of NC's come from in the past 3 decades? Not from the midwest, that's for sure.
You mentioned that OSU tried the one-dimensional approach to beating MSU and it failed, and that Michigan would have had the same result. OSU does not have a runner like Denard Robinson on their team. Denard is a once in a lifetime player, much like Barry Sanders. To assume results from a totally different game will apply to your contest is foolish at best. But perhaps Borges did see it just like you and that would explain why we saw only a handful of designed runs for the most explosive runner in college football.
And about "taking my fandom elsewhere..." dude, seriously. I attended the University of Michigan. It is my alma mater. I kind of doubt it was yours, otherwise you'd never suggest it to anyone who got their degree from UM and cares about Michigan football. People are entitled to be disappointed about the direction of things that are important to them. I'm an American too, but I think our country is going downhill. Does this mean I'm unpatriotic and I should just leave if I don't like it here? I genuinely loath people like you who are so adamant about their POV that they believe people who differ from it, don't deserve to have a mutual interest in an outcome. But that point of our argument is pointless too. It is a sign of intellectual capacity within our species, something I've learned and had to accept over the years.
I predict that Brady Hoke will be our coach for the next 10 years or so, whether I like it or not. And thus, I'm lowering my expectations for the program - both in terms of how much pleasure I will extract from watching the games and just how good we'll ever be in that decade. This helps me cope with days like yesterday and people like you who think that Michigan has been elite in the modern era. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised by Hoke and Brandon, because Michigan football is special to me. So special, that I'd never dare suggest to anyone who else was a fan to take their allegiance elsewhere.
I will not be wasting any more time responding to you. Let's just agree that we're the type of fans who belong to the same fanbase that don't like each other. I'm very comfortable with that.
October 16th, 2011 at 4:33 PM ^
To start off with - my issue w/ the OP is that he's advocating an idea that is patently stupid (running Denard 40 times for 12 games straight is not only impossible (he would be broken long before he got there) but stupid (we wouldn't win more games)).
My other issue is that he can't defend this position, he keeps coming back to me calling him names. Sticks and stones and all that, make a point, make me wrong by NOT being a whiny coaching bigot, don't worry about what a guy he thinks (and okay probably is) is an asshole idiot thinks of him.
My last issue is that he's not reading, he's just ranting. Which in and of itself is probably reason enough I should've let it drop. He's clearly overly emotional, and not going to be able to think about what I'm writing. So yeah, I should've been the bigger man there, but I wasn't, I'll have to work on that.
You make a major mistake sir in using the term "people like you" - assuming you understand anything about me as an individual by merging me with a group you assume I subscribe to based on 4 forum posts... wow.
You liked Rod's public persona, that's your opinion, and I understand why you say that, he was much more colorful than most of Michigan's coaches. Hoke's not hired to entertain me, he's hired to win football games. What would Lloyd have said after Mesko's failed fake field goal? I predict he would have said something along the lines of, 'we saw something, and it didn't work." He _NEVER_ threw a kid under the bus for a game decision. That's what I mean about classy. I don't want to get into relative skill sets of inherited player base, it's highly subjective - but let's just say Rod came in and made excuses for 3 years about empty cupboards, Hoke came in and is 6-1 so far. Neither one had the skill sets on the field they might want, but one whined, while the other won.
For Elite programs - you talk about national championships as the only thing that defines elite... That's fine. I will choose to disagree. Michigan is 7th in win % in the 30 years the OP supposedly has had to "endure" (not once helped by Rod), Michigan is 8th in that span in total wins. We've won league championships in what is (I hope even to you) without question an elite league every 2.5 seasons during that span. Teams flash and then they go away until they come back. That works for some, I'd rather know every year my team will compete. That's a pretty simple disagreement though, and I'm ok with your opinion.
I worry that chasing subjective championships leads to dirty programs. You talk about Carroll (left before his program got hammered), Jim Tressel (just quit after cheating scandal) - if it takes being dirty to win, I don't want to win, but thanks. Michigan wants to win every game, does win more than almost anybody, and pre-Rod had a legitimate chance to win every time they took the field. I don't know why you think that's not elite.
I don't want you to take your fanhood elsewhere - you make legitimate points and have worthwhile arguments. I disagree, but so what, it takes lots of opinions to make the best decisions. I want the person making a patently stupid argument who's cussing at me like I've somehow offended his honor for pointing out that his opinion is in fact patently stupid to stop being a Michigan fan. He makes this program weaker. I don't care if someone prefers Rod, I care about having fans who represent Michigan well - which they don't. I hope you don't lump yourself in with the OP again - just because you prefer the hope of what Rod was doesn't mean you're the same type of fan as them.
Last, for yesterday - Ok, OSU vs. MSU shouldn't be the only standard, but look at what MSU did to Denard last year if you want further justification. Let's be clear - I wanted a run on 4th down. I wanted more Denard runs. I think Borges blew it yesterday - and have posted that above. But assuming that running Denard 40 times would magically guarantee a win is just not good thinking.
October 16th, 2011 at 4:52 PM ^
oh wait, it's you again, didn't read the poster... So you're capable of intelligent thought after all, huzzah!
Feel free to tag me down for being off topic... I just wanted to acknowledge that I did realize after the fact.
October 18th, 2011 at 8:29 AM ^
It sounds like you want a cheater. If that's what you expect out of Michigan, that's your perroagative, but he's right, you might as well become a fan of another team, because you're vastly outnumbered in that category and you'll never get your wish. If you want to find an elite run (to your standards) that wasn't scandal ridden, feel free to list who we should aspire to in the modern era.
And you're list of elite "talent" is pretty funny....Denard, who we've spent 4 days debating; Devin Gardner, from, uh, Michigan; Vincent Smith (really?); Dee Hart (who was probably never coming here no matter who was the coach); and Sammy Watkins (who didn't seem like he was ending up here even if Rich was around, and was a 4* who didn't end up at any of your "elite" programs...but Clemson).
And how can something be so special to you that you've hated it for 40 years except for the 3 we sucked? If something brings you that much displeasure, and you don't really like it, you're not really a "fan" of it....why pretend? It doesn't bring you any pleasure...go find something that does. Because it's pretty apparent that nothing that makes up Michigan Football IS special to you. So he's not questioning your fandom...he's questioning your choices. Do something that doesn't make you miserable. That's just smart.
October 16th, 2011 at 7:22 AM ^
for having no defense ...The offense was great ..Not hiring the right defensive coach did him in...This is also Hokes first year as head coach at Michigan ...So far I give coach Hoke a A- as a overall grade..The guy can motivate,recruit and coach..Bottom line,Hoke is a better leader for our program than RR was..And trust me MICHIGAN WILL WIN A NATIONAL TITLE UNDER HOKE.....LOCK IT...GO BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
October 16th, 2011 at 4:57 PM ^
Just to be clear - Rod forced 3-3-5 on a coach who'd never taught it before, and didn't recruit to support any defence. It is appropriate to say neither DC made the situation better, but it's still 3 years straight of record setting bad defenses. Rod's reply was that he didn't spend time on that side of the ball, that's what he had a DC for. Thanks Rod, then why aren't you an OC and let a real head coach worry about the whole team?
October 15th, 2011 at 7:20 PM ^
Road.
Good on both Hoke and the players.
October 15th, 2011 at 7:52 PM ^
Glad the press asked repeatedly about the dirty play. Hopefully they will report it in their articles.
For those of you who think bringing those plays up is whining how would you feel if Denard had been paralyzed by the grotesque, intentional head twist or Lewan had his trachea damaged permanently from that punch?
October 16th, 2011 at 2:56 AM ^
You sound like one of those over-protective soccer moms that are afraid their babies are gonna get hurt. Do you have any idea how much it really takes to paralyze someone like that? Stop watching action movies. If every single punch could result in a crushed trachea, hell we'd all be in trouble unless you wrapped us in bubble wrap. The plays were dirty and revenge, I'm sure, will come but ease up on the worst case scenario stuff, ok?
October 16th, 2011 at 3:29 PM ^
D.C, Blue...obviously you are unaware how LITTLE it takes. Did you even see the play? His head was suddenly turned more than 90 degrees with great force. Go try it on yourself.
October 16th, 2011 at 7:29 PM ^
3 points here:
1) I DO NOT agree with the act and think it should be punished appropriately.
2) I have had that happen to me
3) If that were enough to break someone's neck, we would have already seen on multiple occasions at almost every level from high school ball on up where athlete's neck's were broken from truly inadvertent facemasks.
Is it possible that some tearing occurred to the tissue? You bet and had he torqued it any further there could have been serious soft tissue damage. As it was it would be at most a grade I/II sprain/strain. However, there is a better chance with Denard's muscle guarding, his head would have only gone so far and then the helmet would have turned on his head and potentially bloodied his nose with some soft tissue tearing.
Again, if I were his teammate and had I seen it happen on the field, I would have responded as I have in the past, when one of my teammates is being abused and likely gotten myself thrown out of the game retaliating. I just think we need to stop with the broken neck meme.
October 15th, 2011 at 7:54 PM ^
Al Borges lost this came with ridiculous play-calling. I thought they weren't going to try to "fit a square peg into a round hole." But that's exactly what they did. Fourth and one and you call a pass play for Denard when he's having a terrible passing game -- even for him? I just don't get it. Urban Meyer didn't get it either.
The play-calling was too cutesy today. We shot ourselves in the foot. Twice the defense put us back into the game late. Twice the bad play-calls dashed any hopes of scoring.
Let Denard run the dang ball in space, Al.
October 15th, 2011 at 8:37 PM ^
I think everyone wants him to run in space. But how do you create that space for him when the defense is cheating both safeties up to the LOS?
October 16th, 2011 at 9:30 AM ^
Games are won by players but you got to put them in the right situations
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October 15th, 2011 at 8:26 PM ^
like the weather for this game is always shitty???? I need more beer to wash away the memories of this game......Lift,crack,repeat ...
October 15th, 2011 at 8:30 PM ^
I sure hope he's right, because this is right about in the season where we folded the last few years. I think we benefit from a weaker BiG, but his confidence needs to be backed up in practice the next two weeks...
a) get healthy
b) make sure we avoid losing streaks; one loss is fine, streaks are bad
c) maintain poise and don't give into msu's bait of dirty football
d) figure out if you want devin passing or denard
We can still make this a successful year (hell, if we beat ohio, we could go 7-5 and have it be a success).
October 15th, 2011 at 8:33 PM ^
Boom! And that's why sparty can go 11-1 in 2010 and get no national love. Y WE NO GET MOAR RESPECT
Your coach preaches a moral compass but fails to enforce it. Good luck recruiting men of character Mark. http://j.mp/qYN6Tc
October 15th, 2011 at 9:03 PM ^
MSU sold out to stop the run game. Borges clearly came in planning to throw because he knew MSU had to sell out to stop the run game. After the last two weeks+ practice time, I assume he thought that Denard was throwing well enough to make this the way to go.
What I'm not sure about is why it was the same thing after halftime. But then the o-line was clearly getting no push, so I'm not sure the runs would have helped much.
MSU's defense is looking pretty good... at the same time, however much it's not mentioned and as much as Michigan's execution should have been better, a few better spots + the (at least one) ejection that should have happened, and a touch of better luck and Michigan wins. (On the other hand, if the team doesn't forget how to tackle in the 3rd quarter, the game's much closer there as well.)
What worries me most though is the quarterback switching. First, because it seemed to disrupt the rythm – at times neither guy had time to get into a groove. Also, there were at least 3 bad snaps, probably related to the switches.
MSU is probably the better team this year, but that shouldn't surprise us. The pressure got to us in the 3rd and that messed everything up; the pick-six buried it.
Bad game; a step back. But all we can do is keep going.
October 15th, 2011 at 10:50 PM ^
Welcome to the board. I don't agree with everything, but your points are valid. I agree as much as the next guy that there were some strange coaching decisions today, but at the root of the defeat IMO was clearly that we got clearly outplayed on the offensive and defensive lines-- simply, the most important part of football.
October 15th, 2011 at 9:17 PM ^
To get more out of the running back group, you have to actually hand them the football. The backs got 6 carries on our last 11 possessions. They averaged 4.5 ypc for the game.
Playcalling was the problem with the running game (as in not calling running plays), not the backs or the guys blocking for them. To then hear Hoke attribute the loss to getting outgained on the ground (when State handed it off 30+ times) is even more frustrating.
October 15th, 2011 at 9:27 PM ^
Sometimes the bad guys win. These bad guys had a hell of a defense, and thats why they won the game. I still wouldn't trade a player on our team for one of theirs.
October 16th, 2011 at 12:37 AM ^
Seem like the Hoth base getting destroyed, getting captured and tortured, frozen in carbonite, and having our hand cut off.
October 15th, 2011 at 9:27 PM ^
I like how the players handled the media, and kind of agree that MSU was more physical today. They hit harder, even after the whistle. They tackled better, especially when the guy was already down. They ran faster, especially after taunting. They just wanted this game more than UM for validation of their very existence, and it showed.
October 15th, 2011 at 10:30 PM ^
If someone told me before the game that MSU was going to turn it over 2 times to our 1, and commit several bad penalties totaling 124 yards and extending drives, I would have said we're winning for sure.
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<br>It's very disappointing but let's not have a knee jerk reaction. It was a bad game against a pretty good team. As badly as we played and coached we were still in a position to win late. Let's face it though, no one thought we were going undefeated. We'll bounce back from this and be better for it after its all said and done.
October 15th, 2011 at 10:37 PM ^
Already looking forward to next year. I hope someone takes all the pictures of them celebrating and taunting, hitting and strangling and hangs them up at the Schembechler Hall, along with the score. Next season, when worthy, cousins and cunningham are gone - they'll get four years of pain blown back in their face. Hoke cares too much about these rivalries to forget about his FIRST loss as Michigan head coach.
And if you are so angry that you can't wait a whole year, then just watch them against Wisconsin next weekend. They are bound to have their post "we just won our superbowl" slump. I also have a feeling they'll lose to NW.
October 16th, 2011 at 12:00 AM ^
someone tell Al to run some damn bubble screens.
October 16th, 2011 at 10:31 AM ^
I agree 100%. Al B. was horrible on Saturday.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:05 AM ^
I cannot believe that the ZOMBIE who replaced Hoke for the post game presser actually "congratulated" Dirty Dantonio on his win. Both Hoke and Robinson seemed to be signaling the press to avoid pursuing the six personal fouls by MSU. This is scary: if Denard had been paralyzed from that body slam and head twist, would Zombie Hoke have brushed that off? If he WOULD - then I say we've got a monster on our hands. I'd say U of M better check with its liability lawyers. The Press: across the board "got the message" and either ignored or down-played MSU's repeated violations.
Dirty Dantonio: get a grip: this year you beat a team which is mostly juniors, b4 that you beat the RichRod Brand Losers three in a row. Every 50 years or so, Michigan has a down period and second-rate Little Brother in East Lansing swoops in to proclaim themselves 'champions." Hah! Lansing and East Lansing: the Land of the Deluded and Destructive.
We can hope: the Big 10 and NCAA come calling on Dirty Dantonio. Pretty sure: those to bodies will do at least what they did to Dirty Dantonio's buddy, Jim Tressel.
Michigan will prevail - sooner or later. Michigan always does.
October 16th, 2011 at 1:32 AM ^
Excellent stuff. Great post.
October 16th, 2011 at 2:57 AM ^
I'm glad he responded the way he did. To call him a zombie is out of line. If he thinks there were dirty calls, I'd rather him handle it with the conference than to sit up there like a whiny bitch and say wwwaaa! They played dirty. They hurt my QB.
It's football. You deal with cheap plays with physicality and whoopin someone's ass. The dirty plays were handled by the officials except for the punch. That, I would hope would be handled by having gholston sit next week. If it doesn't, then and in any case, the proper response is to prepare for and bring it to Dantonio and the rest of the Spartans in the form of an embarrassing loss as often as possible over the foreseeable future.
I most hate it for the seniors but they had a responsibility to the team to get everyone ready for this kinda game. Am I blaming them? No. But the only people the players can blame are themselves. As for the rest of us, I'm just as unhappy as the next guy but it is, what it is and we can't change anything now. This was the sloppiest game they've played all year. As Hoke said, this one needs to hurt for a while. It needs to stay in their crawl and marinate for a few days/months. This needs to stand as a reminder of what it feels like to play poorly and lose a game, in their hearts, they all know they could've and should've won. Besides, I doubt Bo would sit up there and whine about dirty plays.
October 16th, 2011 at 2:39 AM ^
both lines of scrimmage. The offensive line did not block well and the DLINE got pushed around by what I thought would be a weaker MSU O-Line.
I give a lot of credit to our guys for fighting right down to the wire. Borges did make a bad call on 4th down at the 9 (though really I think it was a first down on the last 3rd down catch), DROB should have been running all the way or a direct snap to the RB. All we had was half a foot and the OLINE did get a nice surge right up the middle. There was no guarantee we would have won even if we had scored at TD to tie it up.
We are just going to have to deal with DROB'S inconsistencies at passing the ball. Some games he's going to be in a grove and be great at both running and passing the ball...but other days he may not have the best of passing games. He's such an explosive player and game changer, I think we should keep him in as QB every snap. I don't mind bringing Gardner in with DROB in the backfield in the diamond formations...but I don't like to alternate QBs every other series.
We'll probably lose a few more games but I don't expect a B1G collapse like in previous seasons since our defense is playing better. I wish the DLINE would be more explosive and dominating. I thought that would be our strength coming into this season.
All I hope is that we can at least beat OSU this year at home! That is one long streak we must break but it will probably be a tough game.
I think we will kick some sparty ass in the big house next season!!!!
October 16th, 2011 at 9:24 AM ^
Wr that see their cb blitzing have gotta put their hands up and look for the ball...... Second I know everyone will cry and say I'm crazy but Mike Martin is overrated..... And for god sake I can't wait til molk graduates!!!! Between him being injured all the time and this game he bounced the ball off his a$$ so many times...... How are you not used to a shotgun snap yet????!!!! Oh maybe because your ass was getting handed to you and you were scared..... Drob definitely didn't play well but pressure up the middle every play will kill any qb...... Oh and 4 and inches???? Put devin in and sneak it!!!!!! WTF???!!!???!!!??!!!
October 16th, 2011 at 10:09 AM ^
I like pretty much everything that these guys had to say. No excuses and not acknowledging the dirty play of MSU (which was obvious), because what good would it do. They take losses with the same amount of poise and class that they achieve victory. Its the same kind of coaching and player philosophy that was getting players ready for the NFL in past and should give us all hope for the years to come. Brady Hoke is building something great here, and he is doing it quickly. And lets not forget, this game is not even important (See article below from 2007):
October 16th, 2011 at 11:51 AM ^
Who doesn't have a special spot in his heart for a bunch of loyalty-blinded fans standing up for their joke of a team. I'm a Lions fan. I know how it goes.Oh, how the times have changed
October 16th, 2011 at 10:21 AM ^
How people always like blaming the coach or coordinators after a loss. If that 4th down was converted everyone would be saying right "Borges is a genius! ". But THE TEAM failed to pick up the blitz and therefore fail to pick- up the first down. If they ran a dive and would have failed everyone would have cried Lloyd Ball!
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<br>Both lines were man handled and Denard sucked! And as much as I like him Michigan will never win the Big Ten with him at quarterback. He's way too one dimensional. Both Al and Hoke know it and willNEVER say it.
October 16th, 2011 at 5:34 PM ^
1. Michigan's big formation hasn't been working on, well, anyone on our schedule up to this point. I was disgusted that we were lining up in that formation, especially against a D-line that, like you said, was manhandling our o-line.
2. Calling a play-action from that formation is stupid because play-action only works as a constraint play when that formation/play is, you know, working.
3. MSU had shown the willingness to blitz their corner off the edge previously when Michigan has tried their naked bootleg play. Running it again without making the necessary adjustment to block the corner is awful.
UFR will show more in this play than my single take, but I'd be surprised if Brian doesn't grade that play an RPS -3 at least.
October 16th, 2011 at 5:40 PM ^
Look at how MSU played yesterday. If they repeat that vs. Wisc + @ Neb, they lose 2 SOUNDLY. Then UMich is back in control of its own destiny to play for the B1G.
Denard has nothing to do w/ how well the running backs play, and we're not getting enough. Give him backs that can get another yard per play, so that defences can't cue all on him for running, and see if he can hit more lanes.
The loss yesterday was not all on Denard, he went back to pass and the O-line got manhandled. The passes weren't great, but give him another second or two and let's see if they were better.
"one dimensional" is a failure to respect that Denard has never been asked to be a good sound fundamental passer at this level - give him a chance. He was forced to beat ND in the air, and regardless of what ND did, he succeeded. There's a lot to hope for, and he is capable of winning the league.
October 16th, 2011 at 12:22 PM ^
The worst part of this loss isn't giving a win to these chuckleheads. It's watching some elements of the fanbase turn on each other and sound like a bunch of sniping malcontents.
October 16th, 2011 at 7:21 PM ^
Didnt take long. True blue huh? Pretty pathetic if you ask me
October 16th, 2011 at 12:33 PM ^
You're all wrong to focus on class/dignity issues, the main thing here is we lost to State for the 4th time in a row, which is unacceptable. The coaches have to own up for the 4th and 1 call and all of the various other mistakes they made. Borges did not get the offense ready to play, and that's the bottom line for this game.
October 16th, 2011 at 6:38 PM ^
You forgot to capitalize it so I fixed it for you.
October 16th, 2011 at 3:07 PM ^
Jus wow
PLEASE
Give this TEAM a break. They are playing their hearts outs and will exceed expectations.
I waited till today to check this blog because I knew it would be like this.
YOU ALL sound ridiculous. Has any of you EVER actually been on a football field? Like in a game? or do you just feel superior by judging little frames of film? or scrutinizing decisions by people far more qualified than you?
I don't know. I'm not like you.
It's a game. And its fun. Played by amateurs. I HATE State. And I wanted us to win. I'm all for an open forum, and believe everyone has a right to their opinion, but this thread is just sad to any TRUE fans who never question where their loyalties lie. THIS IS MICHIGAN FER GODSAKES
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