Re: Point 1: Your post fans the fire.
Point 2: So did we post weekly updates on Braxton Miller? Cameron Burrows? Max Bullough?
I don't recall this.
Today's recruiting roundup covers the latest on Gareon Conley, last weekend's high school action, hopefully the last word on David Dawson, and more.
2013 cornerback commit Gareon Conley recently received an offer from Ohio State and is receiving serious interest from Oregon. After his game on Friday—in which he hauled in yet another long touchdown pass—he told multiple outlets that he plans to take visits, which would obviously negate his commitment to Michigan. From Josh Helmholdt, with emphasis added ($):
"I'm taking visits somewhere else because Michigan was the first ever college I visited so I want to see what's out there," Conley said.
Asked how he would respond if the choice came down to taking visits or remaining committed to Michigan, Conley said he had not decided on that or spoken with Michigan coaches about it recently.
"I haven't talked to them in awhile, but I've got to talk to them about it," Conley said.
We know the coaching staff's position on this issue: if Conley takes visits, he's gone. He hasn't spoken to them yet about potential visits to Oregon and Ohio State, so it's possible that this ends up the same way as his planned trip to Cincinnati a couple weeks ago, which he cancelled after talking with Brady Hoke; it's also worth noting that he hasn't scheduled any visits yet. The fact that potential visits have now come up multiple times in the past few weeks, however, suggests that his commitment is tenuous, and with months to go before signing day it feels like a 50/50 shot at best that he sticks.
The obvious backup plan—and he shouldn't really be called this, especially since Michigan has recruited him all along—is five-star FL DB Leon McQuay III, who will be on campus for the Northwestern game. Tremendous adds a couple less-heralded, as-yet-unoffered options in Cincinnati commit Aregeros Turner—who camped at Michigan over the summer—and Cincinnati De La Salle prospect Jaleel Hytchye (gesundheit).
Logan Tuley-Tillman's senior highlights are now available on YouTube. They begin with a photo montage backed by Bo Schembechler's "The Team" speech, which is obviously fantastic. Then a song by something called a "Driicky Graham" fades in—as Bo's speech continues—and I'll be busy collecting brain matter off my floor for the next few hours now.
Oh, there's also lots of Tuley-Tillman burying people, and even some defensive highlights where he displays impressive athleticism for a guy his size, which is nice.
[Hit THE JUMP for a roundup of last weekend's high school games, the latest on David Dawson, and more.]
As for last weekend's high school action, Scout's crew of Midwest analysts scouted several Michigan prospects, praising Gareon Conley's two-way play, Jaron Dukes's downfield blocking (he also had a TD catch in limited action), and the improvement of Taco Charlton ($):
Michigan pledge Taco Charlton (6-foot-6, 240-pounds) flexed his muscle in helping Central to a 28-23 win giving them a conference title and helping Central advance to the first round of the playoffs. Charlton continues to impress with his physical growth and improved technique playing defensive end and tight end on the night.
Out East, Scout's Michael Clark caught Derrick Green in action($)—he's still very much in the "do want" category:
Five-star running back Derrick Green did not disappoint, rushing for 215 yards and two touchdowns. Green was a man among boys Friday night. The 6-foot, 220-pound Green is a powerful running back that gets stronger as the game goes on. While Green does a nice job running behind his pads and gets a lot yards after contact, he made several impressive cuts on Friday night. His agility and quickness are extremely impressive for a back his size. There is no doubt that the five-star running back is one of the top players in the country.
Other standout performances from last weekend:
According to TomVH, former Michigan commit David Dawson has a new top three of Michigan State, Ohio State, and Wisconsin. Dawson previously took an official visit to Florida and it was widely expected that he would commit there, but Josh Helmholdt details why there's been a change in his recruitment ($):
The sudden change from an SEC focus to a Big Ten focus is due to a realization Dawson had in the last couple weeks.
"I don't want to leave home due to the tragedy my family has faced the past two years," Dawson said. "So, for me to stay close for them would definitely be a positive thing and I'd be close to my support system."
Part of the tragedy Dawson referenced was the sudden loss of his father last spring. An employee of the Michigan Department of Transportation, Dawson's father was hit by a car while helping a motorist in April.
This news was posted on the MGoBoard and immediately met with a chorus of accusations (not by all, of course, but an alarmingly high number nonetheless) that Dawson included Michigan's two chief Big Ten rivals to spite the Wolverines and/or their fans. Let's ignore the fact that Ohio State and Michigan State are two of the more successful programs in the Midwest and the stated reason that Dawson wants to stay home for a moment, and in a complete hypothetical (can't stress that enough) address that maybe he's spiting Michigan.
Guess what? That's his decision. It may not be the wisest, most mature way to select a school, but that's his prerogative. He's a 17-year-old kid who may occasionally think like a 17-year-old. The only aspect of this that is entirely unacceptable is allowing a 17-year-old to get under your skin, especially so if you then turn around and tweet nasty things to him. He's moving on. Michigan has moved on. Get over it.
I'm absolutely sick of seeing comments speculating on the mindset of a high school kid and ripping a recruit's decision-making and utter horsecrap about how this player or that player isn't "Michigan Man" material—because every freshman to arrive in Ann Arbor in the history of the football program was a fully-finished, morally-impeccable product, you see—and I'll be more than happy to send those making these comments to Bolivia, and encourage the mods to do the same. It's pretty sad that it's reached the point where I even have to say this stuff—I really hate coming across as a moralizing babysitter, for what it's worth, and I fully realize that the vast majority of you are not the issue—but here we are.
Michigan offers a preferred walk-on spot to 2013 Leslie (MI) OL Bruce Hall, per Allen Trieu ($, info in header). The 6'4", 250 pound lineman is also getting attention from Northwestern, Ball State, Valparaiso, and a number of lower-division schools.
Sam Webb profiles 2014 PA S Montae Nicholson in the Detroit News.
Maize & Blue News has video of 2014 Detroit Country Day QB prospect Tyler Wiegers from his game against Brighton.
Tyrone Wheatley's son, Tyrone Wheatley Jr., is a 6'6", 235-pound sophomore TE/DE prospect($), and now a whole lot of you feel very old.
Re: Point 1: Your post fans the fire.
Point 2: So did we post weekly updates on Braxton Miller? Cameron Burrows? Max Bullough?
I don't recall this.
There's a fire going on either way. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
The Dawson news wouldn't be on here if it was just an issue of him being interested in MSU and OSU, granted. Combined with the fact that it's still a major point of discussion being handled very poorly on the board, however, it was very much worth mentioning and making my/the blog's stance on the matter 100% clear, especially since I'll be quick on the trigger for banning/Bolivia-ing those who continue to make it an issue.
I am not sure how silent it is due to consistent up votes to the 5 limit, but let me say that I applaud you for the way you have handled this situation to this point and believe you were completely justified and on the right track with how you chose to hanlde it. For the sake of people like me who primarily read and don't post thanks and keep up the good work.
There is a pretty limited group of people who are being jerks about Dawson and, to some degree, Conley (about the possibility that he'll decommit). It is true that those people are unequivocally wrong in doing so.
But the bulk of people are not being jerks to Dawson, and the people who are are unlikely to stop as the result of numerous lectures in the Recruiting Updates, which makes me think little is being added. It seems like it'd be more effective to send the people who are being jerks to Bolivia or to give them the banhammer, since it'd be better targeted and would likely be more successful at dissuading people from being jerks.
There was no way Dawson was going to leave his family following the tragedy involving his father. Florida jerked this kid around and he lost his offer because of it.
How did Florida jerk him around?
That's creative, blaming UF. they're simply recruiting a kid to come play for them. He suddenly decided he wasn't going there.
How are you so sure Dawson "suddenly decided" he wasn't going there? Do you think Florida had nothing to do with this, or do you believe Dawson also unilaterally de-committed from Michigan?
I really dislike Hoke's policy. It almost puts the coaching staff in a position to tell a kid who they know is going to be highly recruited and wants to commit to go see some other schools first and THEN commit, something a coaching staff WOULD NEVER DO. If he does commit without seeing other schools, and then changes his mind (which is very likely to happen when you are dealing with 16-18 year olds) the bridge might not be burnt but it's definitely soaked in gasoline.
Seems like a losing philosophy in the long run. Hoke is saying that he doesn't consider someone committed to Michigan if they are looking at other schools, I say Hoke should realize how the decision making process of a teenager works and understand that a player needs to be in a position to commit after seeing multiple schools. And if we are so confident in the tradition, academics and program we have at Michigan, we should be willing to go up against any other school in recruiting.
The coaches want kids to make up their minds. They want them to commit, and mean it. I don't see whats wrong with this. They want kids who want to be here. They don't want kids to be "soft commits" visit lots of other schools, and switch on NSD like dozens of kids do at other programs every year, year after year. They want to know who's going to actually end up here, and if you're on the fence about it, don't commit yet. Be sure. If it looks like you'd rather go somewhere else, the coaches want to know, and pursue kids who really do want to come here, instead of chasing after you and getting left scrambling on NSD with holes at key positions.
Not to mention I'm sure the coaching staff ensures each recruit knows the policy before he commits to us. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Hoke and Co. throw in an "are you absolutely sure you don't want to take a look around?" before they take anyone's commitment.
This losing philosophy is also shared by Chip Kelly of the number 2 ranked Oregon Ducks.
Didn't they just allow that RB to re-commit recently? It seems (at least from the outside) that the staff is not willing to do this. However, I think (personal opinion only, no facts) that Dawson simply decided he didn't want to play for UM and that it is irrelevant whether or not the staff would be willing to let him re-commit because he doesn't have any interest in doing so.
There is nothing this coaching staff has ever done to suggest they are not totally upfront with people. If someone understands that there are limited spots and Michigan wants him, but not if he isn't 100% committed, what's the problem? Why should another kid who wants to play be denied a spot because someone has a tentative hold on it, but he may decide SC or ND is the place for him? And what about how it affects the class in general? You have more options at the start of recruiting to lock in highly rated kids. If a commit changes his mind late in the process, you lose options you previously had. Treadwell has handled this the right way. He isn't positive, so he is looking around. If Dawson wasn't positive he wanted Michigan, he should have done the same. Commitment has to work both ways.
A recruit seems to be free to look anywhere in the known world, and I suspect Hoke will be happy to compete, it's what he does. Step 1 in becoming a Michigan Man - understand the meaning of the word commit.
Treadwell appears to understand the meaning of the word commit and Dawson does not. End of story. I fully agree with Hoke's policy. We may lose a couple recruits early in the recruiting period but it will prevent the problem of losing many around NSD when it's too late to find another to fill the position.
Do me a favor; go read the definition of the word, "commit".
To everyone that thinks Hoke should change his policy in the hopes of attracting a recruit back into the fold, what about the flip side of changing his policy? It seems to me that if Hoke loosens up his visit policy it would open the door for Dymonte Thomas, Kugler, LTT, even Shane Morris to take some "free trips" just to see what other schools are like. I would think that this scenario would have the potential to lead to many more de-commits than the policy Hoke has in place now.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
recruiting updates, but its damn boring when everyone commits right out of grade school.
Ace, I completely agree with your position on mgobloggers bashing Dawson. I have a 19 year old daughter, who is in the process of growing up. I have to take some of her decisions with a grain of salt, and give her space to make her own decisions, and not take things personally with some of her decisions. Dawson has gone through tremendous trauma with the death of his father. Who knows how his father would have counseled him if still alive?
I've made my peace with spending way too much time on the board, as my little slice of fantasy and escape. But it is too easy to forget that these are college kids, in a wonderful place most of us have a nostalgic connection, but no active involvement. Keep up the good work, Ace.
p.s. Every area is different, but the playoffs have begun in Illinois. Our most important recruit in Illinois is Treadwell. His Crete-Monee team won on Saturday. The Warriors are seeded number 1 in 6A (Illinois goes from 1A to 8A, so this is the third largest division.) Even so, they are ranked 6th in Illinois of all teams, regardless of division. Treadwell did well, and the fact that Springfield covered him tightly opened things up for Crete-Monee's other receivers.
Ace, it would be great if over the next month, you could have a piece or section on how our recruits are doing in the playoffs. I know that LTT's team is out, as is another Illinois recruit, Bosch. But for those who are playing into the playoffs, it would be nice to see how they do. This especially gives a review of how they perform against stiffer competition.
p.p.s. Michigan wrestling recruit and HS QB Brian Murphy led local team Glenbard North Panthers to victory in other Illinois 8A playoff action. His dad also coaches in the local Pop Warner league my son plays in.
I don't blame Dawson one bit. In fact if it wasn't for Hoke and his whole, holier than thou, "we are Michigan "crap, Dawson probably would have taken his visit to Florida, realized it wasn't for him, and his recruitment would have likely ended with him going to Michigan. But instead, Hoke yanks his offer because how dare someone want to go to Florida for a weekend for free! This stupid rule Hoke has regarding commitments and their scholarships is absolutely ridiculous and is going to end up hurting us way more than it helps. First Dawson, and now it looks like Conley is headed down the same path. There is a lot of talk on the board about realizing that these are 17-year old kids and they often change their mind. So then why doesn't Hoke seem to understand this? I certainly hope he lightens up on this no- visit rule cause its going to make following recruiting miserable.
Its not stupid. Its there to protect the program and all the other kids recruited by and committed to Michigan. If a kid commits early, then one spot is taken that could arguably be given to another kid just as worthy. If that committed kid stays committed for months and months then the coaching staff arguably moves on to other prospects and other positions, thereby foregoing the opportunity to bring in talent at the spot that the committed kid is toying with leaving. Hoke's policy takes some of the power out of the hands of teenagers and places it when it should be - with adults. If you have children you know that if you don't set the rules early on then anarchy reins and there's a lot of messes to clean up. I, for one, am perfectly happy with Hoke clearly stating his policy and enforcing it - kids come in with eyes wide open and know where they stand if they violate the policy. We should all be so lucky to have such clear guidelines in life.
No, it's stupid. Hoke is not any of these kids' parents. He is recruiting naive highschool kids that have maybe just now gotten their unrestricted drivers licenses. What would you do if someone came up to you when you are 17 and said, "you can come play football for us and we'll pay for your school. But, if you don't say 'yes' right now, I can't guarantee that the offer will be there tomorrow."? You'd say hell yes. It's entrapment, most of these kids are very early in their recruitment, haven't been yet recognized outside of the Midwest for their talent and are afraid that this might be their only offer. I've been thru the same thing with medical school and residency, you jump on the first thing you are given because you don't know if anything else will come along. If something else does come along, then great. These recruits don't have that option, they jump on an offer early in their recruiting, then when they start to garner some national interest and have people offering free trips to Cali and Florida, they are left out in the cold by a program that prides itself on doing it the right way. I have no problem with Hoke withholding a scholarship for taking visits, but to remove their offer permanently just because they want to see the rest of the country is wrong.
PS I dated plenty of girls in college that came from strict families and catholic schools, they sure didn't seem to have many rules when I knew them...
Based on the posts above, it appears that the staff removes offers permanently when commits sneak around and set up visits in violation of the policy, not when someone comes in and says "I would like to look around, I can't be sure where I want to play without seeing more schools, I know you won't save a spot for me, but if I decide I want Michigan and you still have a spot, I would still like to be considered. I will get back to you as soon as I can." As for jumping on the first offer you get out of medical school, whoa, have a little more self-confidence, fella.
so, as someone who has taken part medical school and the match, I'm assuming you would audition at places and tell them point blank, "well, no you're not my first choice, I'll think about it." Unless you're stupid, you tell everyone that you want to come to their program, unless you are going into something that isn't specialized and open positions aren't difficult to come by.
I'm glad you have so much inside information as to what recruits are saying to schools and what schools are offering recruits. I, however, am not privey to that information, and until a committed recruit ACTUALLY takes a visit to another school, I will not believe all the recuriting board and twitter banter about who is talking to who. If our policy is to break all ties with a recruit that we suspect is "sneaking around", whats to prevent false information being leaked by other schools just so we break ties with our committed player?
I assume this was meant for me . . .
I did not partake in the medical school process but did go through the law school and legal employment process. Both the medical school and law school analogies are poor. Recruiting is not a job interview. Everyone knows that getting into ANY law school or medical school is getting a foot in the door. Sure, some law schools and medical schools are better than others but there are plenty of successful lawyers and doctors that went to non-elite schools.
The recruits have MUCH more power in the process than the thousands and thousands of kids that want to go to law school and medical school every year. There is much less football talent that can hack it at the elite FBS level (not to mention that all of these kids want to play in the NFL) than kids who can succeed as a lawyer or a doctor.
I have no problem with Hoke trying to get the power back into the hands of the adult coaches. Its really simple - if you commit then you are committed. There's no semantics in the policy just as there should not be in the process. Its one thing to commit to a school and then decommit because you found another one you like better. No one can criticize that choice and I don't think Hoke would begrudge a kid for that. Its another thing to commit, take up a slot that could be used by another worthy recruit, and then later decide "ah, maybe I'm not so solid on my decision and I want to look around while stringing along the program in the off chance that I change my mind." Rules are rules and are worthless if they're not enforced when broken. I still do not see what's so wrong about that. You make decisions and accept the consequences. Everyone wants a "free pass" in life and that's not how life works. Better these kids understand it sooner rather than later.
(You could argue that recruiting is similar to looking for a job after graduation, but not in this economy. In this economy, the employers have all the leverage. In this economy the analogy is more akin to kids applying to law school and medical school, where there are thousands and thousands applying for one spot. Maybe when you came out of school the jobs were more plentiful, in which case I can understand better where the analogy comes in. I came into the job market when the economy was humming but I still felt the need to assess all of my options BEFORE accepting a job offer. In my mind, my acceptance was my "word" and there was no going back.)
Looking at your post it doesn't surprise me that you went to law school...
"I certainly hope he lightens up on this no- visit rule cause its going to make following recruiting miserable."
Your last quote was ineteresting. Maybe, it's me, but I thought this was about Dawson.
Are you out of your mind? Nobody forced Dawson to commit to Michigan 8 months ago.
Entrapment? Now that is truly a dumb charge. In your own personal analogy, I'm pretty sure that you recognized your relative worth and came to the conclusion that it was better to accept a position sooner rather than wait for the perfect one that might or might not come around later. That is how everyone makes decisions about where to go to school or where to take a job or whatever.
I'm fairly certain that Hoke sits the kids down and explains it to them so, yes, he acts as a parental figure in many ways for these kids. Its a pretty simple choice. If you want to commit to Michigan early, then you have to know that your committment is being taken seriously. Its not a "committment to commit" as some others have aptly described early committment process. People are relying on them and taking them for their word.
As far as the penalty for taking other visits, if my 4-year-old throws a ball at his little sister again, he knows that he is going to be punished because he's been warned about it. Whether you are 4 or 17 or older, choices have upsides and consequences - if you don't appreciate the consequences after being properly informed then shame on you. J
There is no way he tells them if you don't commit now there will be no spot for you. I am sure he tells them that they may fill up, but in no wqy pressures a kid to immit. Anyone who knows how to build a mutual trusting relationship with anyone knows you cannot out unfair pressure on the other person. You suck at life.
Because I'd like to try and avoid getting sick around there, because I try not to get treated by idiots. After you let me know that, you can go back to only posting once a year. Because yours posts haven't gotten any better since your first-
"I think Hoke would be a disaster. Of course, I also think the M fan base made his job extremely difficult and Lloyd basically sealed rod's fate when he decided to stop recruiting the last two years. Hiring Hoke would cause transfers of epic proportions, next season could be worse than Richrods first year. Other than having some ties to the Midwest, no one outside of this coaching search would even know who he is. At least Rich had a reputation for success, players wanted to be in his system. What does Hoke have? We didn't want to give Rich 4 years, yet to think Hoke could do anything more in 4 years as HC wOuld be foolish. Home would not only be working to build Michigan into an elite program but would also be working to establish himself. I don't know how we got to this point again...."
EDIT, duplicate post by accident.
One thing a lot of us have used ot justify Hoke's policy is to "protect the program," so that they are not holding a spot that could otherwise be given to another recruit. We saw this play out when Pocic was turned away because we were full...
However, what is the difference between holding a spot for a commit who verbally commits, and a player like Derrick Green or Treadwell who they REALLY REALLY want, but is doing the smart thing and kicking the tires first before they officially commit? Correct me if I'm wrong Ace, but referred multiple times to a potential recruit as a "backup plan" to either of these two. My understanding is that if a "backup plan" receiver wanted to commit at this point, the coaches would tell him "no" because they are holding a spot for Treadwell.
Basically what I'm asking is (and I dont' know the answer), is it preferable to "hold" a spot for an uncommitted recruit while he takes visits, or hold a spot for a commit who committed very early and then realizes that they want to make sure they're making the right choice for them.
FWIW, I do think that Hoke's policy isn't realistic given the pressure on kids to commit early--as we have all noted, recruiting starts VERY early in a recruit's life, and it's not fair to expect teenagers to make life-changing decisions and stick with them. That being said, I think Hoke and coaches are VERY right to expect that commits be up front with them about their feelings, and a policy geared toward that I'd be more on board with.
But you only get the Treadwell or Green treatment when you're a recruit like Treadwell or Green. You mentioned Pocic, who we didn't really really need. He was told "no thanks" when our 5th OL recruit committed.
Now, I don't know if Green would be getting this treatment if we had another 5-starish RB who was as interested as Green is. If that one RB from TN whose name has escaped me committed to us instead of Auburn, Green wouldn't be getting this treatment. Similarly, if we had another 5 star WR in the fold, Treadwell might not either.
Treadwell is taking a calculated risk, one which is less risky for him because he's so good. Had Dawson taken the same risk, we may have gotten a commitment from Pocic or McGovern or another top OL we were in on and he may never have been a commit. But that's just how recruiting goes.
I take it you are also anti the "holier than thou" we are Oregon crap spewed by Chip Kelly, who has a similar no visits if committed policy?
I don't know Kelly's policy, but if they permanently remove the offer for wanting to take visits while committed, then yes, consider me "anti" that policy.
I'm not saying you hold their offer until they are done taking visits, but you don't completely shut the door on kids either.
De-committed maybe 10 days ago because he wanted to visit California schools
He re-committed to Oregon the next day after talking to Chip Kelly.
That Chip Kelly, what a jerk.
So he de-committed, then was allowed to re-committ? So Chip Kelly didn't cut ties with the player once he decommitted? I have no problem with that. I think we are arguing the same point and you are misunderstanding what I was saying.
He said he was going to, but then reaffirmed his commit when he learned Kelly would not hold a spot for him while he visited elsewhere.
with "I don't know".
If the kid wanted to take other visits, he shouldn't have verballed. I guarantee you joke does not push a kid to commit if they don't tell them they are ready. Do they thin they're ready when maybe their not? Sure. But it's pretty simple and I guarantee you hoke tells them not to "commit" unless they are 100% ready. It is a mutual commitment and if one end cannot hold their end, it's over. I love Hoke's policy.
Last night, I saw something on Scout from Bill Greene with one of those subheadlines geared toward getting page clicks. Made it sound like something might be changing in his recruitment.
There was a rumor of him decommitting on a message board that was summarily debunked by multiple outlets. Nothing to see here, thankfully.
I didn't want to start a thread last night so I figured I'd ask if you didn't mention it in the recruiting article. Thanks for the prompt response.
I hope that Dawson makes his college decision based on where he wants to go to school and play football... this is not a decision to be taken lightly.
I hope he bases his decision soles on proximity to Milwaukee and where he can get the best cheese.
... and beer too... and I've heard somewhere that they can develop o-linemen too...
What better way to impress recruiters at institutions of higher learning than to video tape yourself jumping over a moving vehicle?
Please tell me Tyrone Wheatley Jr is a lifelong Michigan fan and wants to follow in his father's footsteps. Please.