Mailbag: Offensive Structure x 3, Pharaoh Move Comment Count

Brian

weis-e-coyotedenard-praying

It's clear now that Hoke's offensive staff won't stick with the schematic advantages Rodriguez established. However, Hoke has already shown he can recruit well. In regard to the offense only, how soon (if ever) will Hoke's recruiting success offset the scheme regression?

-Nick

I can't tell if "schematic advantages" is a sly Weisian dig or not. Well done. Disclaimer: I don't necessarily think Borges represents a scheme regression in a general case. Just this case, and it's hard to blame Borges when his lizard brain is an entirely different lizard brain than Rodriguez's, etc.

Anyway, it's kind of depressing how long it might take. I don't think there's anyone on the roster who will excel in the framework Hoke and Borges prefer next year, and then in 2013 you've got a choice between a redshirt junior Gardner and a freshman Morris. That's either Gardner getting a lot better—obviously possible, necessary, not guaranteed—or yet another underclass starter. The most frustrating part of the double transition is not effectively using the first returning starter at the position since 2006 (2007 Henne was a shell of himself due to injury until the bowl).

And then you've got the ancillaries. In 2013 Michigan will have one upperclass tight end (Miller), zero upperclass interior linemen (there will be a couple redshirt sophomores), and two upperclass WRs (Jeremy Jackson and Jerald Robinson).

Thanks to Rodriguez's disastrous 2010 OL class, transition issues, and a weird decision or two in the first weeks of the Hoke regime it's looking like 2014 is going to be the first year you can reasonably say Michigan has all the pieces they want in place.

Brian,

I have heard many people say that Borges is making bad decisions calling running plays when the defense is stacking the box with eight, sometimes nine, players.  Borges does not have the luxury of knowing what alignment the defense will run.  Most offenses, at least when I played, rely on the quarterback to check out of a play when these types of issues are presented.  Nine men in the box, check to a pass play, five or six in the box, check to a run.

I think this is something that is really hurting the offense because, for whatever reason, Denard simply is not very good at making correct reads prior to the snap.  This is where Rich Rod’s style, everyone look at the sideline after lining up, really benefitted Denard.  What solutions, if any, do you think there are to help remedy a problem like this?

Go Blue!!
Logan

This is something I've been thinking about since I watched the Calvin Magee videos I mentioned a few weeks back. Magee talks about some philosophical differences he has with Rodriguez, most prominently that he "wants to let the kid grow" by allowing him to make pre-snap calls whereas Rodriguez strongly prefers having the kid read it out post-snap.

Is there really a gap between pro-style and spread 'n' shred offenses when it comes to pre/post-snap reads? Yes and no. Both offenses have them, but they're on different people. In the spread 'n' shred it seems like the vast bulk of the post-snap reads are on the QB. The WRs run the routes, the line blocks, and the QB decides where the ball is going. In pro-style stuff a chunk of the responsibility ends up on the shoulders of the receivers. See: killer MSU pick six. In the spread 'n' shred the bulk of the pre-snap reads are on the coaches. That is not the case in a pro-style offense.

As far as the assertion that Denard's inability to make the pre-snap reads is hurting Michigan in a way it wasn't last season, I think there's something to that. The RR style often gives that responsibility to the guys who have been running the offense for a decade. Pro-style never does that. That's another thing that Denard is being asked to do this year that he didn't do before—never had to do, really—and I'm guessing that's a chunk of the issues.

Remember that actual zone reads from Denard were rare last year. Everyone thought that was rawness, but there's a possibility he's just not good at it and won't ever be. Sad fugee face.

With the caveat that I would also love to see a few more QB isos or Gallon bubble screens per game to replace hopeless bombs, we’ve seen Denard struggle against good/good-ish defenses since last mid-season when they stack the ol’ box—regardless of who was calling the plays. 2010 and ’11 MSU, 2010 and ’11 Iowa, 2010 OSU and Miss. State. (The one notable exception is 2010 Wisconsin, which notably featured three 24-yard-plus proverbial field-stretchers from Stonum getting several steps on a corner, which our WRs this year don’t do). I’ll take for argument’s sake that RR would probably have been better equipped to counterpunch from the spread as a playcaller than Borges is. But what specifically are the kind of plays he would have called? The most notable counter play in his arsenal was the QB Oh No, which is still in the playbook. What other kind of things would work? I really am curious. Our short hitches and bubble screens weren’t cutting it in at least four games last year either.

I’m willing to concede that RR could have been a better playcaller for this year’s offense, but it’s not as if Borges is making Denard sit in the pocket and throw 50 times every game with zero designed runs. He’s using him to run some but trying to develop the RBs and find effective pass-offense changeups. That’s what RR would have been tasked with too. Sometimes it works—sometimes Hemingway can go over a drawn-up safety and post up. But we don’t have a deep threat good enough to consistently make up for Denard’s weaknesses yet. What else can we try?

I think Borges still deserves the benefit of the doubt—I believe that he IS still trying to find what works, and he only has a certain amount of plays per game to do that and sometimes it’ll work and sometimes it won’t and you lose to Iowa. I think where this debate goes next is someone saying concretely okay, here’s what RR might have done. Maybe Wisconsin offers clues. Maybe that Magee video you’ve been working through offers clues. What’s out there that we could try?

BML

The debate about whether last year's offense was actually good is infinite and neverending and we will be talking about it in 2050 when the only thing the same about college football is Joe Pa—er.

I cannot convince anyone of anything in this matter, but I can try to explain my perspective.

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There is a difference between this year's struggles and last year's. The listing of defenses above seems arbitrarily chosen to highlight the spread 'n' shred's worst performances. Michigan put up 31 against PSU, 28 against Wisconsin, and a billion against Illinois*, all of which were at least decent defenses.

In many of the crap games listed, Michigan put up yards only to be thwarted by horrible field goal kicking and turnovers. Michigan managed to give the ball away 29(!) times last year. Michigan lost 14 fumbles last year. This year they're on pace to lose 4 (and a third). To me that's just randomness. It's not like there was anything about last year's offense particularly likely to shoot itself in the face with fumbles. The interceptions were not random but since they've literally doubled this year that is not an argument in favor of the new thing.

This is not last year's offense. It is last years offense with nine returning starters and an upgrade at tailback. The line depth may be an issue but the one new guy on the line, whether it is Barnum or Schofield, has not seemed like a major dropoff from Schilling.

This is not last year's defense and special teams. FEI tracks a stat called "Field Position Advantage" that measures relative starting field position. Michigan was 89th last year. They're 68th this year. I can't find starting field position for drives, unfortunately, but I am guessing Michigan has had a good deal more short fields since they've already picked up one turnover more than they did all of last year. And the field goal kicking exists.

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So, yeah, I am disappointed. The adjustments I would like:

  • taking the free yards teams give them by alignment on the bubble
  • running the blocking the line is best at (outside zone) more consistently
  • running Denard 20 times a game in important games, not Eastern Michigan
  • doing the above in such a way that it puts safeties in a bind so that guys get wide open
  • not turning the QB's back to the LOS on rollouts everyone has covered
  • avoiding under-center running, short yardage excepted
  • Rodriguez would have run a bunch of the stuff the line is designed to do, not power, forced teams to move a safety in the box by using Robinson as a threat and constraining via the bubble, and then made that other safety's life hard by using the Denard play action that is nigh unstoppable if executed. The heart of the offense would be Denard's legs instead of… well, I don't know what the heart of this offense is. Throwback screens?
    This does not constitute an endorsement of Rich Rodriguez. Hoke uber alles.

*[Debating the merits of the Wisconsin points is a popular sub-pastime in this domain. The last touchdown was garbage time; the first three were not. Michigan only got eight drives before garbage time because of the nature of the game—in one of average length it is reasonable to expect they score another TD. Plus they missed a FG. Also some of the billion Illinois points came with Forcier on the field, but by the time he left Denard had 300 yards passing and 62 rushing, so… yeah.]

On Pharaoh Brown.

Was wondering what you thought about [Pharaoh Brown's] position flip. I can't help but be disappointed. Everything I have read about him says he is a terrific athlete. Isn't DE or WR more important than TE if you have a great athlete?

Peter

I wouldn't regard Brown's position as set until he's seeing the field somewhere. With guys like him you don't really know where he's going to end up permanently before college coaches get ahold of him. They'll put him wherever he'll work out best.

In any case, I think you're unfairly downplaying the importance of TE. Tight ends are more involved down-to-down since they are key components of the run game; wide receivers are only relevant when everyone else does their job well and the play breaks into the secondary. After going up against Rudolph and Eifert the past few years I'd love to have a 6'6" guy with sticky hands who can play security blanket for QB du jour.

I get the vibe that tight end is going to be a big deal with Borges. If we're headed to a collection-of-plays Boise-style offense, having a diverse set of tight ends is a key component. Having a 6'6" guy who can run some is a major help in your effort to whiplash the defense from huge power running sets to spread passing attacks. What do you do when the opposition has a guy who can block a defensive end but can't be covered by a linebacker? Brown may be that guy.

Combine the above with the depth charts at the two positions and I get it. WDE next year is Roh, Black, Clark, and Ojemudia with the potential addition of Beyer if he beefs up a bit. Tight end is Moore, Miller, Funchess, and maybe AJ Williams but it increasingly sounds like he's a tackle.

Comments

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

November 10th, 2011 at 1:29 PM ^

"Nine men in the box, check to a pass."  If bad playcalling against nine men in the box is because Denard is bad at making pre-snap reads, he must be the most epically terrible pre-snap-reader of all time - we're basically suggesting he can't even count to nine.  There has GOT to be more to it than that.

Also, in re tight ends: Al Groh ran a reasonably productive offense for years with mediocre wide receivers and mediocre quarterbacks, thanks in large part to badass tight ends.  I would never want to run the Michigan offenses of old without guys like Jerame Tuman and Aaron Shea.  Tight ends uber alles.  If you've got a biggish primo athlete, tight end is a terrific spot for him.

snowcrash

November 10th, 2011 at 1:35 PM ^

"...in 2013 you've got a choice between a redshirt junior Gardner and a freshman Morris."

I would not rule out the possibility that Bellomy could start. It's hard to predict how a quarterback will develop.   

WolvinLA2

November 10th, 2011 at 1:57 PM ^

I agree. We'll have all three of those guys competing every week, and I bet one of them turns out to be a good starter. If Morris can EE, even better. I don't think we'll be that bad off in 2013. We'll still have Lewan and Schofield at tackles, Bryant, Kalis, Bars and maybe Williams fighting at the guards and Miller and Stacy holding down the center. Fitz and Hopkins will be around, with Hayes and Rawls getting reps. WR will be fine since Gallon, Dileo, Jackson, Robinson will be here plus whoever we get in 2012 and 2013. With the exception of OL, I think you can expect production out of guys in their second year in the program, and this 2012 class fills a lot of holes. Keep in mind that our D in 2013 should be very solid so our offense won't need to score 35 a game.

ShockFX

November 10th, 2011 at 1:40 PM ^

My hope is Mattison can turn the defense around even faster and have a killer defense in 2013, with 2012 being slightly better than this year.

I mean hell, look at what PSU has done this year with that ass-tastic offense, or look at OSU once they managed to get any semblance of an offense. A killer defense can mask a lot of offensive problems.

El Jeffe

November 10th, 2011 at 1:49 PM ^

The "all the touchdownz aginst Wiscy in 2010 wuz in garbige" meme makes me apoplectic. We pulled to within 10 points twice in the 3rd quarter, once with 9:23 left. In what universe is a 10-point deficit with nearly half the game left insurmountable and therefore encouraging of garbage-time touchdowns?

Michigan got their asses handed to them against Wiscy. But it... was... the.. DEFENSE... it... was... the... DEFENSE...

/ Trading Places

OysterMonkey

November 10th, 2011 at 3:03 PM ^

I think everyone's memory of that game as an insurmountable lead by half is produced by the feeling they had at the time that the defense was just never going to stop Wisconsin, so once they got ahead, anything the offense did was cosmetic, since it would be followed by a soul crushing TD drive of 80 yards on 10 straight off tackle runs.

But you're right. If the D had managed a couple of stops the game could have gotten interesting again.

BradP

November 10th, 2011 at 3:35 PM ^

I could also be that the offense scored zero points in the first half on 125 yards and the balance of the game became such that Wisconsin was never really in trouble even after they fumbled in their own territory on their first drive of the second half.

The entire balance of the game changed in the second half because Michigan scored on points in the second half.  It may not quite qualify as "garbage time" but Wisconsin certainly had no urgency in stopping Michigan from having 8 and 10 play drives because they knew Michigan would need 8-10 scoring opportunities to make up the difference.

El Jeffe

November 10th, 2011 at 3:47 PM ^

Well, it got down to 10 twice, so it wasn't only that.

And also, just so I'm clear, do points not count when you recover a fumble?

Again, the argument isn't that M did well against W. It's that the reason it was such an ass-kicking had more to do with the atrocious defense than the paper tiger offense.

dragonchild

November 10th, 2011 at 3:58 PM ^

10 points is insurmountable when you can't catch the other team.  No one had faith the 2010 defense could get a stop, so any TD the offense scored didn't matter.  That can turn out to be wrong, but "garbage time" is more an emotional state than anything.

The exact opposite would be the 1997 Wolverines.  By the time they were up 10 it was garbage time because no offense was going to score that many unanswered points.

BradP

November 10th, 2011 at 3:25 PM ^

A couple of things:

1.  You did not deserve the accusations of RR worshipdom that you have received.  I originally felt that you had a love for the spread n' shred and wanted to pull out whatever "advanced stat" you could to prove your point.  I'm still a bit skeptical of some of the numbers and think you overrate last year's offense.

With that said, you have certainly been open to Borges and Hoke (at least after Hoke was discovered to have smelter in his bowels).  It is plain that you have given Borges a chance, and through his pressers that he has displayed a football intelligence that has impressed you. 

If anything, all of this has made your ultimate confidence in Borges that much more respectable and that much more contagious.

 

2.  I do have to disagree with the part about this not being last years offense. 

First off, at this point, there is little to point to to show development out of Denard.  He very much seems to be the electrifying runner with severe deficiencies in his ability to read defenses.  His ongoing inability to learn when to scramble under two experienced and intelligent coaches speaks to that. 

On the O-Line, Schofield has struggled mightily in Michigan's losses this year and Barnum has been injured.  Unless I am greatly exaggerating Schilling's ability, this does seem to be a sizeable dropoff.  On the other side, this year's Omaneh doesn't appear to be anything like the linebacker crusher we were expecting coming out of last year. 

This year's receiving corps is also without Darryl Stonum. 

And finally, the emergence of Toussaint seems to be the biggest difference, but I am somewhat skeptical that that emergence would have occurred under Rodriguez.

dragonchild

November 10th, 2011 at 3:50 PM ^

I gotta ask:  What is "QB Oh Noes"?  It's not in the FAQ and it's mentioned so often I doubt a keyword search would lead me to a description.  Based on the name (what the opposing Mike would say), Robinson's talent and the tendency for defenses to stack the box it sounds like a QB play action.

MI Expat NY

November 10th, 2011 at 3:54 PM ^

Yes, it refers to the QB play action where Denard was initiate what looked like a run and then throw it to a WR running down the middle of the field with nobody within 15 yards.

People have been saying we still run this, though I tend to disagree.  We've been running "pop" passes where we fake the zone read and try and hit the TE down the seam.  I don't recall seeing too many fakes off designed runs.  

El Jeffe

November 11th, 2011 at 1:52 PM ^

I feel you, but didn't he go from like 300 lbs. of flab to 265 lbs. of granite under Barwis's tutelage? In his case, he both was Barwisized and experienced the natural increase in skill due to the aging process.

M-Wolverine

November 11th, 2011 at 3:32 PM ^

Of many factors. It just goes with the meme that when convienent players only get better, or were bad before, because of lack of coaching/coaching improvement, etc. In a case like Graham, I don't think it's due to the physical...that he was young and out of shape, but suddenly got put through a rough regime change and came out a Greek God, but more mental change from young guy to upper classman, which in turn, affects the physical. He went from a less serious, not working hard enough to be in shape underclassman (like most) to a guy who matured and took his future more seriously, and lucky for him had a guy like Barwis to take that drive and help make him a beast. It's just the idea that some staff took a guy who was a slab of goo and molded him into bronze, vs. a guy who might have gotten better and molded himself a little because he became an upperclassman is the same concept.  And one I hear thrown out a lot around here.

dragonchild

November 10th, 2011 at 4:33 PM ^

People are questioning Borges' playcalling from one situation to the next, mainly on short yardage situations, but I disagree with a lot of the armchair quarterbacking.  On any given play, I can at least understand what Borges is doing.  Drawing up a pass on 4th-and-1 with the defense in goal-line is OK.

His main weakness seems to be as a poker player.  He sees everything on the field, but he doesn't get in the DC's head.  This blog has identified plays where there's a "tell" in that a fake isn't based off an established threat.  Defenses won't bite on a fake if they don't even need to key.  If you can predict the play action just by looking at the formation, the guys could block perfectly and you've still lost.

Borges, I get what you're trying to do, but please, three new rules:

1) Don't run a fake without an ESTABLISHED non-fake out of the exact same formation.  Just having it in your playbook doesn't matter to the opposing defense.  You need to burn them with it.

2) Don't run plays in REAL games that rely on players to do things they can't do yet.  You master things in practice because nothing works in games as well.

3) Don't mix up plays when you don't need to.  If something burned them, keep burning them with it.  When they adjust, counter.

I disagree that Borges is being stylistically stubborn.  If that was the case he wouldn't be doing any designed QB runs at all; the backs would be doing inside power runs out of I-formation into nothing.  However, I think he needs a little more Sun Tzu in his playcalling.  I have absolutely no issues with any play in his playbook or the situational playcalling, but the frequency is all off.  If a play works he doesn't keep running it until it haunts the DC's dreams, and he'll run a play even if it's clear the defense has figured it out before the snap.   Threats don't get established, the defense doesn't need to make any in-game adjustments, and that leads to forced plays and three-and-outs.

blue in dc

November 10th, 2011 at 6:37 PM ^

I don't understand why there is so much negativity about this offense. If I understand, the conventional wisdom of this blog is that FEI is a good way to measure the offense. Aren't we like 17? Granted, not as good as last years 2, but really, doesn't seem that bad

Cleveland Wolverine

November 11th, 2011 at 2:11 PM ^

Actually, I think this is excellent news of Brown being initially slotted for TE. Having the benefit of being ablr to track him since his HS is right up the street from me, I think this might take better advantage of his athleticism than DE. He has decent hands which are better used catching the ball rathering than punching (the technique, not the Sparty way of doing things), swimming and tackling. And as is pointed out in the article, this is just preliminary- if he contributes better elsewhere, he'll surely be moved there.