Mailbag: Coaching Turnover, A Ton Of Beilein Feelingsball Comment Count

Brian

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[Patrick Barron]

Brian,

Long-time reader, second time emailer. I sent you a fake inspirational poster featuring Tate Forcier when those were still things. You used it. Good times.

I have the following mailbag questions:

1. With the departure of Durkin, Baxter, Jackson, et. al, do you see the revolving door continuing for assistant coaches? I don't have a problem with it because HARBAUGH and it means they are poach worthy. What about Drevno? He seems unlikely to leave anytime soon. I guess my question is: how much of the offense is Harbaugh, and how much is Drevno/Fisch? Would there be a big change if one of the latter left? Butt's comments about not having to learn a new offense this year were nice to hear just for continuity's sake.

This offseason's turnover was a bit extreme. Maryland hiring Durkin after one year as a defensive coordinator actually in charge of his defense—at Florida he was under Will Muschamp—was unexpected. I figured we'd get a 3-5 year run from him before he was established enough to make the jump. Losing Baxter and Jackson is actually more of a worry for me. Baxter went back to California, which is understandable if you're sawft because you've spent your time in that climate. Jackson may have decided he's more of an NFL guy.

Harbaugh seemed to make a conscious decision to reduce staff turnover with his picks for replacements. College DC lifer Don Brown is past the point where he'd be a head coach candidate; Chris Partridge and Brian Smith are young guys moving up who will probably stick around a while before any potential bump to quasi-co-psuedo associate head coach and run defense coordinator. Michigan's defensive assistants should be set for a few years, with a Mattison retirement the next likely swap.

On the other side of the ball it's murkier. It's Harbaugh's offense, of that there is no doubt. Coordinators on the same side of the ball as a heavily involved guru head coach often take a significant amount of seasoning before they are targeted for a move up the ladder. (See: Pat Narduzzi.) Drevno had not been a full OC prior to the Michigan move and has been with Harbaugh for a long time; he doesn't seem like a threat to depart for a few years yet, and when and if he does it'll be because Michigan's offense is shredding opponents.

Meanwhile Fisch is set to negotiate an extension that should bump his salary up significantly after a buyout year when Michigan was more or less paying the Jaguars. He seemed to get on with the staff and clearly had OC-type input in the passing game…

…so I wouldn't expect him to leave for anything short of a full OC spot. That may very well happen—before he was cursed to work in the mines of Jacksonville he had a pretty good run at Miami—but I think he'll be around for a while yet.

The guy to watch for a departure is Tyrone Wheatley, who has ambitions to be a head coach. He has a powerful motivation to stick around for four more years; after that I would not be surprised to see him look for an OC spot no matter where it is.

2. What about Chesson for the #1 jersey? Has that been officially retired? If so, I don't remember hearing much about it. I can't remember a better candidate in recent years than him.

djfakeout

#1 is not retired and shouldn't be. Devin Funchess just wore it, remember? The fact that this guy didn't remember that and I wrote most of this response before remembering that an NFL player wore #1 two years ago is… Brady Hoke, man.

Anyway: no retiring more numbers please. #21 getting retired is kind of a bummer, man, and I can't imagine #1 or #2 goes by the wayside for practical (running out of numbers) and recruiting (here's Charles Woodson's number) reasons. But I don't expect Chesson to take it. He is in a pretty famous WR number (86) already and he doesn't seem like the type of guy to care much either way.

Beilein status, part 1

Hey Brian. I see you trying to walk the line of criticizing U-M basketball while not calling for Beilein's head. Here's the issue to me...

it's easy to compare Beilein to what came before and say look at his improvement. But the "fire Beilein" says "Well, that's not good enough." The better comparison isn't to what came before but to what would come after. What are the odds of replacing Beilein with someone who runs a clean program, fits culturally with the university, and achieves more success on the court? I put it at about 10%. That's not a chance worth taking for someone who may be marginally better. But the only thing that would satisfy these guys is if we were dominating the Big Ten. So then you need to consider the odds of getting the coach who runs a clean program, fits in culturally and consistently out-performs Izzo, Crean, et al. I put those odds under 1%.

So it's a shame that Beilein isn't a slightly better coach than he is, but Michigan's biggest obstacle is that our rivals' programs are just consistently too good.

-Anon

I mean, yeah. I think we're all pretty disappointed where the program is right now but that's largely an artifact of Beilein's insane level of success over the three years from 2012-14, which went

  • Big Ten Title
  • National Championship Game
  • Outright Big Ten Title & Elite Eight

Frankly I didn't expect that level of performance from Beilein when he was hired. I just wanted to make the tournament most of the time and Pittsnogle some higher seeds. Take that expectation and remove the team's star for consecutive years and this is what you get.

That said, the trend here, especially on defense, is alarming. It's not really about the level of the program, it's about the direction of the arrow. If Beilein's projected performance going forward is the average of his Michigan career minus his first year (which I think we can issue a mulligan for given the state of the roster) then yes, it will be very difficult for Michigan to match or exceed that. If it's the last two years, even considering Levert's injury, then the pool of candidates who can expect to match or do better expands considerably.

I don't think that's clear yet. I do think we're going to see an offseason shakeup and hopefully a defensive specialist brought in. I am still resigned to the fact that Beilein's peak is likely to have already passed and that we'll probably be gunning for a Sweet 16 or two before he retires, not a title.

[After THE JUMP: more Beilein feelingsball, PWO pickin', can the Big Ten replicate the Harbaugh model?]

Beilein status, part two

I have something to run by you. I think it's widely accepted that Tommy Amaker is a stand up guy and quite frankly was what this University needed to wash the program clean. But after some time it became evident that while he was perfect for that job he was not going to be the coach that could reach the next tier. Do you think we have reached that with Beilein?

He was what we needed to take the next step up to what you might call relevance and above average. But have we reached his ceiling, much like we reached Amaker's ceiling? They are both great men but sometimes a person can reach their potential. I believe the only way to reach the next level which, let's call it "Consistently a Championship Contender" we need to totally revamp our recruiting. We are simply never going to win with the recruits Beilein targets and lands. I know he was burned by a couple 5 stars, but so was everyone else that did not land those players and somehow top teams still manage to bring in other elite talent.

I guess my ultimate question is, Has John Beilein and his system reached it's pinnacle?

Probably. I don't think we're going to see another Beilein team at Michigan that has five NBA draft picks, four of them first-rounders, in one starting lineup. That was a confluence of scouting and development that was and remains unprecedented in the one-and-done era, and it seems like that was a one-time thing. Not because Beilein is worse than we thought but because that kind of syzygy is a rare thing, like the Pistons' latest NBA title. It happened and that team was great despite not having a superstar; it's not likely to happen again.

Michigan's recruiting isn't all that bad. Xavier Simpson is a top 50 point guard who was all but set to torment us at Wisconsin; Jon Teske is a true seven-footer who could still develop as college bigs tend to do. The big hole in Michigan's recruiting is the fact that they've got a top 30 player in Kam Chatman who is just now starting to find a role off the bench. It is not championship level recruiting unless the stars align perfectly, which they did. Now they're not.

Beilein status part 3

I'm sure this has been said, but I haven't seen it, so I'll say it:

Beilein hung three banners in three years from 2012 through 2014, and he came within a couple of plays of hanging two more during that period.  In the 30 years before Beilein landed here, we hung either two or four banners, depending on your perspective (two conference championship banners and either two or zero Final Four banners).  This year is very frustrating, and it has to be Beilein's worst coaching job since 2009-2010, but there's a limit to how much you complain about the guy who accomplishes that. 

The bigger concern is that the team looks like a bunch of followers in search of a leader, and it's hard to see anyone like Morris, Novak, Burke or Stauskas on next year's team either. 

I am more or less in the same spot as this gentleman. Beilein has obviously done enough to warrant further patience but I'm skeptical this group of players gets a ton better next year. MAAR is a bright spot but I wonder how much upside remains there since he's a bit older than sophomores usually are; meanwhile it's hard to see the post situation resolving itself in a positive manner unless Mo Wagner takes a huge leap.

I mean, they should get better with experience. That was the theory going into this year, especially on defense, and that did not come to pass. Hard to not interpret that as a flaw in the coaching. Maybe a staff shakeup fixes that; maybe we spin our wheels a bit longer. Only thing to do is wait and see.

Money and how to spend it

Brian et al,

I wrote a few years ago asking if you believed that the cash that the BTN would provide B1G schools would ultimately lead to parity with the SEC and other elite Power 5 schools.  At the time you said "eh, not so much", suggesting that B1G schools were willing to upgrade facilities but not their coaching.  Purdue and Illinois have proven this to be very true.

But now with news of Harbaugh's frequent flier status and plans to hold spring practice in Florida over spring break it's time to pose the same question a little differently.  Are Harbaugh and Michigan finally maximizing their utility of resources in a way that comes with having the stadium we have, and the (dare I say it) brand recognition we have?  If so, can other B1G schools do the same?

The B1G has long been resource-rich but feared acting like it, and I don't mean in a "bagmen" sense at all.  Harbaugh may be signaling to the nation that Michigan is a premier institution with unparalleled resources on the academic and athletic fronts, and is willing to use them in unconventional ways.  In fact he might be leading a redefinition of college football, away from the pseudo-NFL model the SEC employs to something as much cash behind it but far less sleaze.  Seriously.  And I think a handful of B1G schools (definitely not all) could do the same thing.

Any thoughts on this?
pete-rock

Let's just stipulate that OSU is excluded from this conversation since they've done well and every five years or so we're "surprised" by the fact that one of their star players has been driving a car with dealer plates for a year.

As for maximizing Michigan's resources, I literally cannot imagine what else Harbaugh could be doing to increase Michigan's recruiting profile and on-field fortunes. Harbaugh probably can't either, because then he would be doing the thing he thought up and Greg Sankey would be trying to gin up some reason to think of the children.

It has cost money. But Michigan has money. Michigan has scooped up support staff left and right; pretty soon their press box will look like Alabama's. They took a trip to Florida with the whole team. They flit about the country to satellite camps. All of that costs dollars; all of it is an attempt to convert those dollars into wins. Unfortunately the exchange rate there is much worse than "five star recruit here is some money", but I think it's clear that Michigan is pushing every angle they can find without falling afoul of NCAA rules.

With limited exceptions I do not think the Harbaugh model can extend to other Big Ten schools. With the possible exception of Penn State, none of them have the national cachet to make forays into California or Florida or the deep South, go head to head with local schools, and come out on top.

MSU has been the most successful Big Ten school outside of the Big Three for a while now and their latest class features zero(!) recruits from outside the Big Ten footprint. Their 2015 class was a lot more geographically diverse but featured just one composite four-star outside of the footprint. MSU can get local four stars these days but going and getting a Dylan McCaffrey or a David Long is a rare event indeed for them. More satellite camps and more pub isn't likely to do much other than unearth another sleeper or two.

And that's a team that has been in BCS bowls repeatedly. Purdue may as well not bother. Only a few schools have the ability to resist the fate of their location in recruiting no matter the (indirect) cash outlay.

Pick a PWO

Harbaugh is up to 12 pwo's. Which one has the best shot of seeing the field?

That's easy: Camaron Cheeseman. He's a long snapper, and apparently a very good one.

This is probably not a satisfying answer because he is a special teamer we hope to never hear from again unless he's catching a pass in the Sugar Bowl. Let's add a "on something other than special teams" stipulation. In that case, I've got Simeon Smith, the TE/WR out of Kalamazoo. You cannot teach 6'7" and Harbaugh loves tight ends. Smith might have had a higher profile if he didn't play on a team that was 1-9 both years he was an upperclassman; he's got the academics; if he fills out he could be the kind of field-stretching flex TE that Harbaugh built his empire on.

A useful thing

Hi there,

I made a classifieds facebook group for the community. LSAClassof2000 thought it'd be a good idea to make it as a sticky or something permanent and readily accessible for anyone who would want to join. The hope is this can keep the boards clear of the selling posts that happen during the regular football season.

The URL is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MGoClassifieds/ it's a place for members to buy/sell/trade Michigan merchandise.

Thanks,
James

Hey, so, use this.

Comments

jimmyshi03

March 16th, 2016 at 4:58 PM ^

They don't just come becasue you want them to come. We've seen this the last two years. Some coaches don't like going that route, and that's fine. Gary Williams quit becasue he hated the recruiting culture. I'm fine with the trajectory.

Maizen

March 16th, 2016 at 8:03 PM ^

You're using Gary Williams to make your point? Before he retired in 2012 the last time Gary Williams made it past the second round of the NCAA tournament was 2002.

This is Division 1 power 5 big boy basketball. You don't like the recruiting culture go coach at a mid major. Beilein's one of the 6 highest paid coaches in the country. If he can't land 5 stars here then he's doing something terribly wrong.

rockfish

March 17th, 2016 at 12:32 AM ^

reality check VOLTRON BLUE , stars don't matter but heart, talent do. Donnal looks like an

average suburban high school center, HE HAS NO BUSINESS PLAYING FOR MICHIGAN!!!!

Beilein recruited him,scouted him and is the reason he is at Michigan. his lack of develoment is totallyon Beilein... you know why because he SUCKED in the first place and to think how many other guys Beilein passed over for Donnal!!

Repeat the above comment for Ricky Doyle, DJ Wilson, Chatman to just name a few from this years squad,,, AGAIN I REPEAT, Beilein is a mid major coach who happens to be oneof top paid Coachs in the NCAA, Coachs at a premier program yet acts like he still Coachs at Richmond.or Canisus..... He is 63, thanks for the 9 yrs,   see ya

Tom09

March 16th, 2016 at 2:50 PM ^

I guess when you're overly concerned with regular season hockey, MGoVacation Horror stories, UFR stats (great post, bad timing) and general whining about how selfish Caris is, you'd hardly notice that Michigan just made the NCAA tournament without their 2 seniors, one of whom is an NBA 1st rounder. 

Lanknows

March 16th, 2016 at 4:16 PM ^

as long as his health checks out, a team like the Spurs, Thunder, Rockets who value character + tools will be all over him.

Caris is the best NBA prospect to come through Michigan since Jamal Crawford.

Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 4:19 PM ^

If that's true, it's only because of his injury.  He was in every single mock draft as, not just a first rounder, but a mid first rounder, for two years prior to the very end of his injury streak.  Even late this year, he was still a spot ahead of Valentine on Ford's board.

But now the injury has sustained and it muddies the waters.  You won't be right if he doesn't end up drafted there.  

AlwaysBlue

March 16th, 2016 at 2:50 PM ^

and the observations here are really discouraging.  This team won 6 more games then last season, facing similar injury issues.  In fact, they played the season minus an entire class (lost to injury and early departures).  And the conclusion is that the trajectory is bad? 

olm_go_blue

March 16th, 2016 at 3:15 PM ^

Missing the tourney last year (and having the worst year of the past 4), and then nearly missing for a second straight year is what is/was considered bad.

Its great UM beat IU, or probably would have missed 2 years in a row. Considering deep tourney runs the years prior - that would have been a bad trajectory. How can going from Elite 8's back-to-back and then missing altogether back-to-back not be considered a bad trajectory?

Obviously people are backing off of that now that UM did make the dance. Still, its a play-in game, and not a lot of hope for a sweet 16 type team next year. Don't get me wrong, I'm always overly optimistic, but trying to provide some context to answer your question.

Erik_in_Dayton

March 16th, 2016 at 2:52 PM ^

I think Coach Beilein can at least come close to replicating 2013 as far as having a 1-4 that are the equivalent of Burke-Hardaway-Stauskas-GRIII, though I don't mean to suggest that will be easy.  The biggest question to me is whether he can ever add another McGary.  Mitch coming on board was an anamoly relative to the rest of Coach B's time at Michigan.  Losing him to a postive marijuana test will probably still bother me if I live to be 100.

ijohnb

March 16th, 2016 at 3:02 PM ^

was REALLY good.  His performance against Kansas was a "Laetner v. Kentucky" kind of game.  I don't see Beilein ever getting a player like that again.  At this point, I would settle for "can finish at the rim through slight contact" and "can make an open ten footer with regularity."  Give us even just those two things and I think another run is possible.

umchicago

March 16th, 2016 at 3:47 PM ^

he was awesome on offense at the free throw line; constantly making great passes and destroying their zone D.  considering his playing time during the year, that impressed me the most.

Lanknows

March 16th, 2016 at 3:44 PM ^

McGary made a leap of faith that many (like the Plumlees of the world) will not. Most guys want to see proven NBA production and Beilein hasn't had it from his bigs (other than McGary).

Teske though, as a legit big pushing 7 feet, could alter perceptions very quickly.

umfan83

March 16th, 2016 at 2:53 PM ^

I think a big knock against Beilein is that of those 5 NBA players on that team,  Burke is a backup PG on a mediocre team, Hardaway, Robinson and McGary have been bouncing around between the back of an NBA bench and the NBDL.  Robinson and McGary have barely played - Robinson couldn't get burn on a 76ers team completely devoid of talent and patient enough to let players work out their kinks.  Speaking of Philly, Stauskas has gotten playing time in Philly but hasn't done much with it.  Pretty much any other team in the league would have him at the end of their bench at this point.  Of the 5, it would be reasonable to speculate that maybe 1-2 of them will be on an NBA roster 2 years from now, and none of them in the top 8 of a rotation.

The Big Ten has some fantastic big time recruiters.  One of them competes for talent within the state.  Izzo can talk about coaching Draymond Green, Zach Randolph, Shannon Brown, and Jason Richardson among others and ask them if they want to be the next Draymond Green or the next Mitch McGary.    Down South, Matta can do the same thing with Conley, Sullinger, Turner and Cook.  What five star prospect with an eye on the NBA is going to choose Beilein over Izzo and Matta with their respective track records?

I like Beilein and I am not calling for his head, but I am not sure our expectations should ever be a consistent Final Four contender with him.  He's a good coach but he has a ceiling and has never developed a consistently starting NBA player in his long career.

umfan83

March 16th, 2016 at 3:12 PM ^

It will get you killed when competing with NBA factories for elite prospects.  People gripe that Beilein needs to recruit better, but this fact holds him back.  And I don't want Michigan to necessarily be an NBA factory, but it would be nice to have at least one guy that you could hold up as a poster child for what a 2-3 year run under Beilein can do for your future.

I mean we recently had 5 players drafted, 4 of them in the first round, 2 of them in the lottery and none of them have become players of consequence in the NBA, and none of them are really showing flashes of becoming one in the future. 

Human Torpedo

March 16th, 2016 at 3:20 PM ^

Recruiting shouldn't be affected vitrually at all really by production in the pros. Beilein did his part. He got two lightly touted guys no less to maximize their potential in college and parley that to NBA scouts into lottery picks. At some point afterwards he's no longer responsible for their careers at the professional level since he's longer there coaching them

Lanknows

March 16th, 2016 at 2:53 PM ^

Baxter's being replaced by Jay Harbaugh and Partridge, neither of whom have much track record in special teams and are both pretty inexperienced at the NCAA level in general.

But aren't Brian Smith's qualifications similar to what Jackson's were?  Given the popular take that Brown's system necessitates great play from his DBs, it would seem that Brown would have to have great confidence in his DB coaches.  Furthermore, we have a ton of personnel continuity and Zordich returning in the secondary. Not much cause for concern IMO.

Michigasling

March 16th, 2016 at 3:03 PM ^

It's a given that Michigan isn't going to recruit academic ineligibles, and it seems that football has an easier road than basketball, with the one-and-done mentality of its high school superstars.  Bball only needs 5 guys on the floor at once, and if they have speed and athleticism their innate talents can do a lot more for their team without worrying about learning how to play as a team.  And why do they need to spend time studying when they don't have to worry about passing prerequisites for a course they'll never be around to take or a degree they care nothing about?

A football coach has more time to train and educate his players, learn and perfect his specific system, because he can count on having his guys around for more than a few minutes of afterschool playtime.  Intelligent players who know how to learn and willing to put in the time can contribute more to a team's eventual success.  It still hurts when a star gets injured, but not as much when you have 22 starters rather than 5.

And maybe it's only me, but don't those high-achieving bball teams have starting freshmen who look years older than our [injured] seniors? 

Maizen

March 16th, 2016 at 3:02 PM ^

The attitude towards our basketball program is depressing. Beilein should be recruiting a lot better than he is and Michigan should be a solid sweet 16 team at minimum evey year.

One reader says the odds of getting someone better than Beilein are lower than 10% and that's just not true. Remember Rick Pitino was about to take over this program when it was in much worse shape. Beilein makes 3.37 million dollars per (7th highest in the country) and Michigan just sunk almost 100 million dollars into its basketball complex. With a 169 million jumpman/nike contract on the way, anyone who doesn't think this is one of the best jobs in college basketball is fooling themselves.

The recruiting needs revamped. Waiting to offer kids until they visit after their sophmore year is insanely moronic. Michigan should be looking for ways to level the playing field not put themselves further behind it. Moreover post recruiting has been down right atrocious for a decade minus McGary but Beilein still hasn't learned his lesson.

I appreciate what JB has accomplished here but UofM is wasting their money and time if getting back to a final 4 with him as HC is a long shot. Why play at all if you aren't playing to win.

Maizen

March 16th, 2016 at 3:19 PM ^

Well the tournament didn't get expanded to 64 until 1985, so it's not exactly a fair question. And I could ask the same question about Arizona before Olson, MSU before Izzo, Duke before K, and on down the line. It's about the coach. But here's your answer. Sorry I'm not sorry for having expectations for a guy who is the 7th highest paid coach in the country.

92, 93, 94.

Maizen

March 16th, 2016 at 3:27 PM ^

It's wasn't Brian's percentage. Secondly if Michigan isn't employing a guy who is going to be at least in the discussion for the hall of fame then what's the point? You seem to be missing it.

Name me one reason why Michigan can't be a top 25 team every single year?

Facilties? Nope

Recruiting territory? Nope

Coaching pay? Nope

Tradition? Nope

Footwear contract? Nope

So please, would love to hear your excuses.

Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 3:35 PM ^

You're right, it wasn't Brian's percentages.  Mea culpa.  He did agree with it.

But, to your point...  Now you're moving the bar...first you said 16, now you're saying 25.  

I hope we can be consistently top 25 too (every *single* year is STILL too high a bar, even Duke fell out during this season), and I think, given the injuries, it's premature to say that Beilein can't do that.  I'd want to see our chances over the past two years with our intended lineups.

The one thing I would say that is an anchor is playing by NCAA rules.  Chalk that up to an "excuse" if you want, but for as long as this athletic department would rather we abide by the rules as written rather than as followed by the types of teams that are top 25 every single year, then that will be a limiter on our performance.  You can deny that, but it's naive.  

Maizen

March 16th, 2016 at 3:42 PM ^

If you think being a top 25 program every year with the facilities, money, tradition, and resources Michigan has then you aren't very smart and have insanely low expectations. You also probably spend $0 on Michigan basketball. If you're going to pay a coach a top 10 salary and charge PSL's and invest 100 million inot Crisler and the PDC then you want a spectacular return on that investment. It's not rocket science here.

This whole playing by the rules shit is so overrated around here. The scandal was almost 20 years ago. People need to move on already. good lord.

Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 3:48 PM ^

I'd love to compare "smarts" head to head with you.  The fact you even went there shows you don't have a leg to stand on here.

I literally said we should be a consistently top 25 team.  NOBODY does it every SINGLE year, that's my point.  8 or 9 years out of 10, sure, let's do it.

If you think the program (and by that I mean Schlissel and Manuel) should "move on"...I won't disagree with you.  But the fact is we haven't.  And under those conditions, we are on the wrong end of a sloped playing field.  I'm sorry you can't accept it.  

DarkWolverine

March 16th, 2016 at 3:49 PM ^

Agree With You
For me, it's simple. Are we competing favorable with MSU. The last 2 years and looking ahead, we are not doing so. All other arguments and discussion are not relevant to that bottom line. It should be easier to accomplish the success MSU has had with the right coach. Also, coach is nearing retirement, so this is not whether he leaves, but when.




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Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 3:54 PM ^

Exactly how many programs have achieved Michigan State's success over the past 10-20 years?

Sure, I love getting the better of them (and during our peak, we won 6 of 9)...but saying your minimum expectation is that we should be better than a program that has achieved top 3 (?) success nationally over the past 20 years is fairly delusional.  And saying it will be "easier" with the right coach is completely bonkers.  With a HOF coach, it won't be "easy".  

Would you say the same about football needing to be "favorable" with Ohio State?  Most people acknowledge that equal footing is a reasonable expectation for our blue blood football program.  

DarkWolverine

March 16th, 2016 at 4:01 PM ^

Matching Rivals
Has to be the expectation in any sport that we have. We are top 10 in Director's Cup almost every year. Compared to our own sports teams(softball,swimming, gymnastics, track, hockey, wrestling). By the standards in our own AD, the basketball teams are laggards. Go ahead and accept mediocrity.




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Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 4:06 PM ^

I'm not accepting mediocrity.  Just saying we can fall short of each of those programs in their respective sports and still be top ten in the country.  I'd still WANT more, but it would be dumb to EXPECT more.  Just saying "blur blur we should match our rivals" sounds a lot like Dave Brandon's approach to coach firing (see tennis).  And THAT GUY said "if I fired John Beilein, I'd just have to go out and find another John Beilein".

 

jimmyshi03

March 16th, 2016 at 5:07 PM ^

I'm sorry. The notion this is a top 25 program all time, let alone 10 to 15 is insane. They aren't top 50 all time in wins or winning percentage and have won only 10 conference titles in the NCAA tournament era (since 1939). Three of those are Beilein's. Otherwise, it's Strack, Orr and one Frieder year. 

This sport, more than any other, is about inertia. Kids sign up to play in Lawrence, Kansas, Durham and Chapel Hill in North Carolina and Lexington, Kentucky despite no obvious great recruiting footprint for any of them. It's because they held onto HoF coaches for decades at a time. We've never had that because the athletic department, for long streches, didn't take the sport seriously

Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 5:12 PM ^

Nah, we are definitely a top 25 program all time, in spite of our athletic department not taking the sport seriously for most of recent history.  Now they are (granted, with the stipulation we stay extremely clean so as not to embarrass the university).  That said, the list of schools that meet the hurdles being discussed here is far, far smaller than 25, or 16, or even 7 (Beilein's pay rank).

 

funkywolve

March 16th, 2016 at 3:48 PM ^

From the mid-80s to the mid-90's UM was consisently ranked in the Top 15 AP poll heading into the NCAA tourney:

84/85 - 2

85/86 - 5

86/87 - not ranked (ost 2nd round of NCAA tourney)

87/88 - 10

88/89 - 10

89/90 - 13

90/91 - not ranked

91/92 - 15

92/93 - 3

93/94 - 11

rockfish

March 17th, 2016 at 12:48 AM ^

HEY EINSTEIN FROM 89' TO 93' WE WENT TO 3 NCAA CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES IN 5 YEARS!!! MICHIGAN HAS BEEN TO 6 NCAA FINAL GAMES SINCE THE MID SIXTIES WHICH IS TOP TEN FOR ALL TEAMS....I WOULD SAY EXPECTATIONS  SHOULD BE HIGHER THAN EVER....

 

ANOTHER REASON TO "RETIRE" BEILEIN', YOU CAN'T HAVE A JUNKYARD DOG FOR A FOOTBALL COACH LIKE HARBAUGH AND GRANDPA MILKTOAST FOR A HOOP COACH!!!!

 

JUST IMAGINE FOR A SECOND HARBAUGH RECRUITING IN BASKETBALL,HOW MUCH DIFFERENT WOULD THE TEAM LOOK??? YOU KNOW THE ANSWER AND THATS WHY BEILEIN HAS TO GO!

Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 3:16 PM ^

Can you please tell me how many programs are "solid sweet 16 teams at minimum every year"?

I know it's not Kentucky (missed the tournament three years ago), North Carolina (lost in second round as 8 seed four years ago), Indiana, even State was a 7 seed last year (yes, they overperformed in the tournament).  Maybe Duke and Kansas, though both are prone to upsets in March.  Curious which and how many schools hit that bar.

 

Voltron Blue

March 16th, 2016 at 4:17 PM ^

More than are Sweet 16 programs *every year*.  

And you can't keep answering questions with more questions, while also shifting the burden of proof for your grand proclamations to me.  You have every opportunity to bring some facts to this discussion and prove me wrong.  I have an open mind, I promise. 

Maizen

March 16th, 2016 at 6:26 PM ^

How many times are you going to be spectacularly wrong in one thread? Here is the list of programs that pay their coach over 3 million dollars a year:

Kentucky, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, Michigan, Michigan State, Arizona, Indiana, Arizona, WVU, OSU. That's it.

Beilein makes more money than all but Calipari, K, Self, and Pitino, and Izzo (3.4 vs 3.37).

Just sit this one out bud.