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By Brian — March 10th, 2010 at 3:28 PM — 65 comments
Filed under:
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  • dave brandon
  • mailbag
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  • rich rodriguez
  • terry foster

Hey Brian,

Last year you had a post on why Penn State wouldn't go varsity in hockey, and why a Big Ten Hockey conference would not happen. While the economics have gotten harder, one of the central tenets was all the conferences were full - but the CCHA will have an open spot that they didn't want to give to Alabama-Huntsville after UNO's departure. Would the CCHA welcome in Penn State (and why not)? How much does this improve the likelihood that Penn State's hockey program goes varsity?

On a related track, if Notre Dame joined the Big Ten, would it spell doom for the CCHA?

Vasav

The main reason Huntsville was rejected from the CCHA application is that the small schools in the league are already in a financially precarious position and adding a trip to Alabama would have been a net loss. At least, that's my reading of the boilerplate:

“The CCHA will remain focused on maintaining and strengthening our existing members to ensure the conference’s continued success and long-term viability.”

Penn State is closer—about four hours by car for most CCHA sites—but not close enough that anyone is going to drive, so the financial drain is about the same. However, it's bleeding obvious that PSU brings a lot more cachet to the league than UAH. Would Ferris sell out for a game against Penn State even if PSU was terrible, as they likely would be for the first few years? Maybe or maybe not, but they'd probably draw better than any other mediocre-to-bad CCHA team. The Big Ten Network would televise more games and maybe the smaller CCHA schools could extract some money from that in exchange. Financially, it seems feasible for the existing members.

I assume Penn State's varsity hockey outlook is considerably improved by the opening, but that just means it goes from "no way in hell" to "very small chance."

Your Notre Dame question is sort of a question about a Big Ten hockey conference, which I don't think we'll see in the near future even if ND joins. You have to have six schools to call your conference the Big Ten, but you don't have to play in a Big Ten conference once you get to six.

HOWEVA, this offseason is going to be the most interesting one in a long time for college hockey. Some sort of Big Ten quasi-conference has moved past the realm of rumor and into things coaches are talking about directly. The announcement that the College Hockey Showcase was kaput actually came with the notion that Michigan and Michigan State would end up playing their WCHA Big Ten brethren more often, not less:

"We have one more year after this and that's it,'' MSU coach Rick Comley said. "I think it's run it's course. Wisconsin did not want to extend the Showcase. They want to get Ohio State involved and they prefer a Big Ten Conference.'' …

"My preference would be to play (Minnesota and Wisconsin) twice (each season),'' said Comley, who is not in favor of a Big Ten league at this point. "I think we could declare a Big Ten champion. It would require a reduced number of CCHA games, which I'm in favor of.''

Whenever I talk to the Big Ten Network people, which has been a few times now, I ping them about hockey and their response always is "we are interested in televising games between Big Ten schools." The network needs content but doesn't want Lake Superior; the BTN money then gives the big schools a huge incentive to play each other.

With the CCHA headed to 11 teams and the WCHA to 12, both conferences are going to have to adjust their schedules. I don't know how you could possibly make an 11 team conference work with the unbalanced schedule the CCHA has been running since they went to twelve, so a reduction to 22 conference games seems inevitable. If Michigan is going to play Wisconsin twice and Minnesota twice and maintain their four games per year against State, they might as well throw in a bonus series with Ohio State and call that a Big Ten schedule, right? If the WCHA goes down to 24, UW and Minnesota can do this too, but that will eat up every nonconference game in years they don't travel to Alaska or manage an exempt tournament.

Brian, 

How come our band goes to so few road games? It seems like the MMB only goes to MSU, ND, and OSU. The Purdue band and their big drum managed to make it to the big house. It seems like at every SEC game the visiting band is always there. How come our band never travels to non-rivals games?

Brad H.

I pinged someone formerly in the band and they pinged someone closer to the situation and this is what I got back:

More than money, I think it's logistics. It's hard to convince schools to give up 230-280 seats so that Michigan can have more of a presence in their stadium; that was the deal with PSU before. They'll give us like 90 tickets, or enough for a big pep band, but not enough for pregame or a meaningful halftime performance. At the time, the directors decided that it was better not to go than to send a group too small to really represent the MMB, and nothing's changed, more or less.

This seems sort of unlikely to me since Northwestern and Indiana aren't going to sell out when Michigan comes to down, and if opponents were unwilling to fork over seats for the MMB Michigan could retaliate by not allowing opposing bands to come. That's not the case: there might be one home game a year where the opponent band does not show, and that's homecoming. Virtually every band in the Big Ten shows at Michigan Stadium.

I’ll go on the record as being opposed to our new AD making comments that RR will be the coach for this season insomuch as it could be construed that RR could be done if they do not improve this season.  With the sharks already circling the program, I see this as an unwise move by Brandon.  Why give legs to the notion that RR is on the hot seat?  If Brandon does not see the impending doom and downward spiral that awaits us if we push out RR too fast, then shame on him for not learning from the Notre Dames and Nebraskas of the world. 

Thoughts?  I am really concerned that we’ll jump the shark on this one.  I don’t see a scenario out there that does not put us into a tailspin.  Hire Les Miles/Harbaugh and you’ve got the revamp the offense to more of a traditional attack and we’re looking at least another year or two of development and recruiting.  Yes, a Miles hire would be an uptick on your recruiting trail, but would it be enough to overcome the current perception of the program?  Hire another spread guy and you’re limited to a crop of guys who are descendant from the guy who wrote the book and that you just got rid of.  Where is the win in that scenario.  Our best bet is to go on the offensive in support of our guy.  Let’s not lay out there for interpretation anymore lame-ass ambiguous quotes for the Sharp’s, Snyder’s, and Rosenberg’s of the world to run wild with.  Let’s go on the offensive with the media and boot the Free Press and their Guerilla journalism tactics out in to the cold and make an example out of them.  Let’s go get these supposed Old Guard or Moles or whatever the message boards are calling them today and let it be none that you’re either on-board or off the ship, even if it means returning checks to donors.

I think leadership like that is what we need now and not the comments I read this morning, which are not the comments of someone convinced we’re headed in the right direction.

I mentioned this in UV yesterday about Brandon's stay on message moments in the press conference and with Generic Fox Business Jerko, but to reiterate: I think the explicit "Rich Rodriguez will be our coach next year" is not so much a threat that Rich Rodriguez won't be the coach in 2011 as a way to remove any ambiguity about Rodriguez's job security right this moment.

Unfortunately, Brandon has to live in reality, and in reality there is a chance that Rodriguez doesn't make it to 2011. If Michigan doesn't make a bowl this year it may be impossible to keep him even if you think he is a good coach just because of the brand damage. I sort of kind of felt that way about Tommy Amaker: even if he'd been extremely unlucky to barely whiff on NCAA tourney bids and suffer through that one year where the team was so injury-wracked that Dani Wohl started against Michigan State, after six years you can't really justify keeping him on. I was way less enthused about Amaker in general since his history was one Sweet 16 season followed by an implosion.

"Going on the offensive" with the media never works out. The hive mind perceives a threat and releases single-sentence pheromones that scurry to their defense. Why do you hate freedom, Mr. University of Michigan? Censorship, Mr. University of Michigan? For shame. Etc. The best thing is to be as explicit and boring as possible. And from what I've seen elsewhere, outside of the shrill yelpers in the local media the end result here is regarded as nothing. Self-imposed sanctions will be announced and then everyone will forget about it unless they're creating a spittle-flecked case to fire Rodriguez.

As far as a hypothetical new coach in 2011 resulting in a tailspin, I actually think there could be something of a Ron English effect going on here. After years of clamoring for Jim Herrmann's head, Michigan fans finally got it in the 2006 offseason. Ron English walked into Lamarr Woodley, Alan Branch, David Harris, Leon Hall, Shawn Crable, Prescott Burgess, Terrance Taylor, and so on and so forth, and promptly went on an all-crushing tear until Ohio State and USC realized that Morgan Trent was Michigan's second-best corner and linebacker Chris Graham was their third-best. English seemed like a frickin' genius… and then promptly went out the next year and got nuked in The Horror and the Post-Apocalyptic Oregon game.

It's evident now that English is not a frickin' genius, but getting back a huge number of excellent players disguised that. Jim Herrmann probably would have had a lights-out year, too.

This is what Hypothetical New Coach is going to walk into in 2011: 20 returning starters (including specialists). Everyone except Steve Schilling, Obi Ezeh, Jonas Mouton, and Troy Woolfolk will be back. If there is a hypothetical new coach, Michigan will probably have had six or fewer wins in 2010. Bouncing up to 9-3 or whatever is going to be child's play, and Hypothetical New Coach will get carried around on a palanquin.

I'd much, much rather Rodriguez stick around because the last thing the program needs is another bowlless season, round of transfers and decommitments, and general inefficiency where square parts meet round holes. Obviously. But the roster agony Michigan suffered through the past two years (Nick Sheridan! Four scholarship defensive backs!) is not coming back in anything approximating that level of pain.

And now some Terry Foster pile-on:

Brian,

wondering if you had heard this rumor that i just read on terry fosters facebook page:

Terry Foster I heard a rumor Michigan coach John Beilein was looking to leave for Rutgers or North Carolina State. The Michigan mafia swears it is not true. He still has their support.

i wanted to ask you first about this before i even thought about posting it on the site. but i wanted to put it on there before 2pm when his radio show starts and he leads off with it.

one more question, how the hell is this "michigan mafia"??? foster always references them when he talks about michigan.

thanks,

David Krauser

Everything you need to know about Terry Foster's totally awesome rumor skillz can be found in this old post. Key graph from 16-year-old (who is now 21!):

Jayborne23 posted on 8/23/2005 9:53:28 PM
HOLY S***, WAS I RIGHT?
Is Sheed for Chandler and Nocioni a real deal? Cause I sincerely made that s*** up. That hoopsworld article mentioned it. WHAT THE F***?

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March 10th, 2010 at 3:40 PM | For those that are concerned (Score:1)
imafreak1
imafreak1's picture
Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 1199

For those that are concerned about Brandon's statement regarding RR being the coach next season, ask yourself this. What was Brandon supposed to say? What could he have said that would be more reassuring?

He's trying NOT to make news with regards to RR's status. I can't imagine he would ever say "RR will be our coach until, at least, after the 2011 season."

He just has no reason, or inclination, to be that specific.

RR has got this season for sure. No coach could ask for more at this point.

Give it to Wheatley!

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:24 PM | This year for sure? (Score:1)
Maize and Blue ...
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Joined: 03/15/2009
MGoPoints: 3403

Let's take a realistic look at RR's first two years.
Year one- some talent back on D though not all of them bought into the change and a new D coordinator. Basically nothing back on O.
Year two- very little back on D and the third D coordinator in three years. Most of the offense back, but a true freshman QB. Senior RBs hurt most the year, starting QB hurts shoulder in week 4, starting center goes down in week 3. One stinking yard at Illinois is the difference between going to a bowl or not.
Basically, we're talking a perfect storm here. Recruiting has gone pretty good despite two horrendous years and the team is getting much more athletic, but is still extremely young.
The start of RRs third recruiting class is under way and some top notch recruits are wondering about his status. Personally, I would give him a two year extension to show the recruits faith in the coach. As we know, coachs can leave or be fired at anytime so this small of an extension would be nothing in the grand scheme of things.
I know there will be people who disagree with me on the extension, but I have faith in the staff that they will get the ship righted and it is going to be one fun ride once they do.

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:07 PM | Dave "Bandon" has handled the (Score:1)
aaamichfan
aaamichfan's picture
Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14085

Dave "Bandon" has handled the RR situation well, IMO. He has done a good job of squashing the rumors without giving away his hand.

I believe Brandon is an RR supporter. He made a comment about the great recruiting foundation laid by RR, and pointed to this as reason for future optimism. If the 2010 season begins on a very good note, I wouldn't be surprised if RR is signed to a midseason extension.

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:26 PM | extension? (Score:1)
michgoblue
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Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 10854

double post - sorry. Stupid work computer!

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:26 PM | extension? (Score:1)
michgoblue
michgoblue's picture
Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 10854

A mid-season extension? Seriously? I can't imagine that there is anything that RR could do before the end of the season that would lead Brandon to give him an extension. I remember last year starting out well, and then, not so much. After putting up the worst 2-year performance in the history of the school, I think that it is more likely that he is gone, rather than extended, at the end of the season.

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:43 PM | Obviously it won't happen if (Score:1)
aaamichfan
aaamichfan's picture
Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14085

Obviously it won't happen if they are 4-5 after 9 games.

I was hypothetically talking about something like 7-2. It would end all unnecessary speculation and allow coaches to focus on the remaining games and closing out recruiting. Considering that Beilein was given a midseason extension, and they have already considered extending RR, it wouldn't be unprecedented.

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March 11th, 2010 at 5:20 PM | Timing and $$ (Score:1)
a2bluefan
a2bluefan's picture
Joined: 12/29/2008
MGoPoints: 1728

I think Brandon's reassuring statement about RR has, at least in some small part, to do with the timing of the NCAA stuff. From what I recall reading, UM has the mid-August hearing, but the final verdict and possible sanctions won't come out until later in the fall. If Brandon is going to fire RR over the NCAA stuff, he sure as hell is not stupid enough to do so before the NCAA stuff is final and he can do so according to contract and owe RR nothing. Dismissing RR before then would be very, very costly.

Just an observation, really. I agree with what you said. And I highly doubt Brandon, with RR sitting right there, was gonna publicly say anything close to "RR's job is on the line here."

I automatically downvote "B1G"
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March 10th, 2010 at 4:00 PM | What would compel (Score:1)
PhillipFulmersPants
PhillipFulmersPants's picture
Joined: 01/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1139

anyone to look at Terry Foster's FB page? A dare? A lost bet?

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:57 PM | Technically, that's three questions you ask there. (Score:1)
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 13053

Pity I can't give you +1 for each of them.

 

 

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:15 PM | for all you sales guys ... (Score:1)
Twisted Martini
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Joined: 08/30/2009
MGoPoints: 1191

Timing and territory. Take a moron and put him in a territory with a bunch of renewing contracts, and he is hailed as a hero. Take a good or great salesperson and put them in a shitty territory and they will struggle for a while. The point about Herrmann and English is well taken.

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:17 PM | PSU and hockey (Score:1)
MznbluePA
MznbluePA's picture
Joined: 01/20/2009
MGoPoints: -3

Brian,

The closest CCHA school to State College is OSU, at 330 miles over 5 1/2 hours from State College. For the CCHA teams in Michigan, minimum of 390 miles(A2). I hope that the Big Ten adds ND, then has a Big Ten Hockey championship. There would be 6 teams to start, and PSU would be the 7th.

Warren

Oh my gilly gosh, he looked like a runaway piano!

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:17 PM | Rich Rodriquez (Score:1)
mgovictors23
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Joined: 05/03/2009
MGoPoints: 91

He has slowly been building this team, this year it will start to pay off for him.

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:33 PM | And he will finally jettison (Score:1)
El Jeffe
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Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 6389

And he will finally jettison that pesky "q" from his last name.

Amen.

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:19 PM | I'd be perfectly fine with a (Score:1)
Hannibal.
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Joined: 09/09/2008
MGoPoints: 2229

I'd be perfectly fine with a new coach going 9-3 in 2011 and getting to take the credit for it. If Rodriguez can't make a bowl game one time in three years at Michigan, then I don't have any problem saying that the guy wouldn't win 9 or 10 games in 2011 either.

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:34 PM | Why would anyone doubt Terry Foster? (Score:1)
Don
Don's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 17332

After all, he did point out that Deshawn is probably not coming back. What more can a journalist do? I don't know where these ridiculous demands for "accuracy" come from. People just don't understand how hard it is to consult information sources before writing a column. Whether you're dialing a phone or using that computer thingy on your desk, the risk of carpal tunnel is a significant issue for sports journalists and we shouldn't hold Terry Foster to a higher standard than we do our own children in 3rd grade.


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March 10th, 2010 at 5:09 PM | Hmmmmm.... (Score:1)
aaamichfan
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Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14085

Terry Foster also "heard a rumor from a very credible source" that Rich Rodriguez would be fired after the Ohio State game last year.

Is this his M.O.? Fabricating information and hiding behind the word "rumor"? They might as well start hiring prepubescent girls as local sportswriters.

Hey Terry, I hear TigerBeat needs a new Miley Cyrus correspondent.......

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March 10th, 2010 at 7:35 PM | TBH every single publication (Score:1)
Tacopants
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Joined: 07/06/2008
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TBH every single publication needs more Miley Cyrus coverage. Give the people what they want.

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March 10th, 2010 at 4:56 PM | I heard a rumor that Terry Foster blows goats (Score:1)
Twisted Martini
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Joined: 08/30/2009
MGoPoints: 1191

while they wear MSU underpants.

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:19 PM | ND Is our barometer? (Score:1)
michgoblue
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Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 10854

Why are we defining RR's performance by what happens at ND this year. If Kelly gets 10 wins by using his square parts in a round hole, does that mean we should dump RR because he is no Kelly? If Kelly only wins 1 game, does that mean that RR is better, so therefore we should keep him? I think not. In making a decision on what to do with RR, I think that the powers that be need to evaluate (1) whether, independant of how Kelly does, they believe that RR is a good coach and has the ability to bring us back to our prior glory, and (2) if RR is not our guy, is there someone better out there.

At the end of the day, I think that unless he wind 7 or more games, RR is likely gone, but it will have nothing to do with how Kelly does at ND.

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March 11th, 2010 at 9:50 AM | Doesn't compute (Score:1)
witless chum
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Joined: 08/03/2009
MGoPoints: 21

Unless ND's roster is about in the same state as M's was in 2008, especially lacking a QB who could really run the new coach's system to best effect, I don't see how it's a comparison. There's not an equation you can put in where y= new coach success.

I'm sure you've all heard from MSU fans who point out that Mark Dantonio did a similar transformation of systems in 2007 and went 7-6 with players John L. Smith went 4-8 with. As fun as that game might be, the truth is that Dantonio got a squad that fit his system pretty well: a steady QB, a thunder and lightning tailback duo, seven big offensive linemen with starting experience, an NFL quality TE, an NFL quality WR/KR, a good front four on the D-line, with two NFLers, three good safeties, a decent CB, two good returning kickers (one was a kickoff specialist) and a redshirt frosh punter. He added a few guys who made impacts as freshman.

I don't follow M close enough to really compare MSU's 2007 roster to what Rodriguez had in 2008, but I think you actually have to make that comparison of rosters to compare the situations at all.

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:23 PM | Unfortunately, that's (Score:1)
David
Joined: 07/01/2008
MGoPoints: 127

Unfortunately, that's entirely possible, especially with our defense.

ND, while losing Jimmah! and Golden Tate, is not lacking in guru-approved talent.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/commitmen...

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:25 PM | Marching Band Road Visits (Score:1)
oakapple
Joined: 02/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1188

Bear in mind that a trip to Ann Arbor is (historically) a big game for every opponent, so naturally, they bring their bands. That doesn't mean that a trip to their school is an equally big deal for Michigan. It just can’t be.

I mean, even when Michigan has a bad year, a win at the Big House is a cherished memory for a kid from Northwestern, Indiana, or Purdue. The reverse simply isn’t the case.

Marc Shepherd
New York, NY

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:44 PM | Also... (Score:1)
M Fanfare
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Joined: 08/17/2008
MGoPoints: 1018

Until recently, the MMB had to be ready for a bowl game every season which can cost anywhere from $250,000 to $500,000 depending on the bowl location and prestige. While the band gets a significant chunk of money from athletics for bowls, the MMB has to budget part of it itself. Going to additional road games would be a huge expense both for the band and the athletic department when travel, food, and lodging expenses are taken into account. When an extra 5- or 6-digit expense is added to a football road game, I'm sure the AD would rather the band stay at home (band members usually use the free weekend to rest or to hit the road and be spectators for once). South Bend and East Lansing are day trips, but for Columbus the MMB has to stay in a hotel, which costs even more. Trips to Northwestern, indiana, or Purdue would likely have to be turned into multiple-day trips; also, no visiting band has performed at Camp Randall since the early '80s, not even Minnesota. Uniform and instrument repair costs from Madison trips were far too high to go back.

As far as forcing the band to be able to go by threatening to not allow the other team's band to come: this situation sort of came up a few years ago with Notre Dame. ND's band is MASSIVE and Michigan told ND that they couldn't bring their whole band because there wasn't enough on-field seating for all of them, and they'd have to leave about 100 people back in South Bend. ND got all offended and showed up with their whole band anyway and squeezed them into the southeast corner as usual. The bad blood from this incident has reared its head since, such as when ND blocked the Michigan hockey band from playing at the ND-Michigan hockey game at the Palace of Auburn Hills in 2007 (it was a ND home game and they denied Michigan's request to send the hockey band--the game was far from sold out and the hockey band was smaller then than it is now). Basically, that's probably not a great idea.

Far we their praises sing for the glory and fame they have brought us...

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March 10th, 2010 at 8:53 PM | That was always my impression (Score:1)
M-Wolverine
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Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 32088

That they have a limited number of trips, so they go to the big games vs. our big rivals. And opposing schools are similar, but when you play in front of a quarter-filled crowd in a tiny stadium, you chose one of your trips to be Michigan (or Ohio State, PSU) so you can say you played there in front of 100,000 people. Even moreso if you're making a rare OOC trip there. (Where else are you going to play for a bigger audience?). Michigan's band does it every week, so why go to Evanston? I bet if we played Texas or someone they would make the trip. (This was all also much easier when OSU/MSU & ND/PSU alternated home dates. Not sure how the Big Ten computer screwed that all up).

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

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March 10th, 2010 at 5:33 PM | Dave Brandon's Comments (Score:1)
oakapple
Joined: 02/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1188

Brandon has handled it right. The fact is, if Rodriguez misses a bowl for the third year in a row, he is almost certainly gone, and I am not sure that 6-6 or even 7-5 is good enough. It would be pointless for Brandon to say now that Rodriguez will be back in 2011, no matter what. No one would believe him.

It is true that if Rodriguez is fired, there would be some unwanted attrition. That is why I am sure he will get the benefit of the doubt, as long as the 2010 results offer at least some decent evidence that the system is starting to pay off. But after two sub-par years, I think he needs at least to make a bowl and play .500 ball in the Big Ten.

Marc Shepherd
New York, NY

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March 10th, 2010 at 6:29 PM | Brandon (Score:1)
J. Lichty
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 1112

has handled it very well. He has stated that he is going to look at the "progress" which is measured in part by wins and losses, but also other measures. He has been on record noting the improvement from year 1 to year 2.

Brandon, absent torches and pitchforks, and maybe not even then, is not going to let this run its course. I think six wins and couple in the big ten, with some competitive losses keeps the project alive for another year.

our package is our package, and it’s pretty big. - Greg Mattison, Bowl Practice Presser Tr. 12-13-11.

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March 10th, 2010 at 6:36 PM | T Foster (Score:1)
Suavdaddy
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 127

a$$ hat. I know several (several) that called Terry Foster, pretending to know something, and 10 minutes later its on the air or in the paper. Several of us would listen into the conversation. It was hilarious. I invite you to try it.

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March 10th, 2010 at 7:31 PM | redundant, but (Score:1)
bleedscarlet
Joined: 07/11/2008
MGoPoints: 17

nothing about Beilein on the RU end.

my (middling) Rutgers blog - http://www.onthebanks.com

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March 10th, 2010 at 7:59 PM | Girly men (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

I've long expected 2010 is RR's last here (hence, my ratings). If I'm wrong, I sure hope it's cause the program is WINNING and keeps on winning.

THE ABSOLUTE WORSE REASON for keeping any coach, most especially one who's ass is on the line for putting 100,00 asses in the seat every week, is that, well, it could be worse and think of how things will be even worse if we have to bring in someone new.

That, my friends, is loser talk. Nothing more.

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March 10th, 2010 at 8:41 PM | Or realism...... (Score:1)
aaamichfan
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Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14085

Or realism......

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:11 PM | I don't want realism, I want wins and an NC (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

If after THREE YEARS of embarrassment, the last thing a program that legitimately wants to win should do, rather than say an Indiana, is keep doing the same because of fear it might get even worse.

Are you really so willing to accept 5th place as a course of business -- at MICHIGAN?

I sure as hell don't.

See also: Einstein's quote re insanity.

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March 10th, 2010 at 10:09 PM | Sorry brianshall (Score:1)
aaamichfan
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Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14085

but I'm actually capable of examining the entire situation. Did you honestly think they were going to win the BigTen last year with a true freshman QB, injured RB's, an injured center, and a new defensive scheme with multiple walk-ons starting?

Were you expecting Rich Rod to sprinkle some magic fairy dust on the field?

If you are simpleminded enough to believe the Einstein quote applies here, you might as well become a fairweather Florida Gator fan.

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March 10th, 2010 at 11:28 PM | This degree of sense-making (Score:1)
El Jeffe
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Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 6389

This degree of sense-making is UNACCEPTABLE! We are MICHIGAN!!1!! We ACCEPT nothing less than MULTIPLE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS and correct PAD LEVELS!11!!!

There has never BEEN an unsucCESSFul coach at MICHIGAn who EVENtually became successfUL, nor at ANY other UNIVersity!!1!!! If you can't see THAT you ARE insane and that is UNACCEPTABLE!!11!!!

Edit: UNACCEPTABLE!

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March 10th, 2010 at 11:58 PM | i get it now (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

it's kinda like sarcasm, right?

so, where do you think we'll end up this year -- at the end of YEAR THREE?

look, you are willing to accept that. fine. not me. i don't mind getting negbombed for that. I am a true Michigan Man.

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March 11th, 2010 at 10:20 AM | I know, I was just funnin' (Score:1)
El Jeffe
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Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 6389

I know, I was just funnin' there.

In all honesty, my belief is that if a team shows improvement over time and doesn't commit actual major violations, college coaches should be given 5 years. Why? The first year doesn't count so much, due to transition issues, etc. And then I think a coach should be able to demonstrate progress during the time that he (or she) has his (or her) players and system in place.

So in answer to your question, if Michigan shows improvement, say to 7-5, then I would be okay with that. If they then go to 9-3 and possibly 11-1 over time, that would be fantastic.

I don't begrudge your having a different opinion on the matter. I just think you don't always frame it as though that's what it is. Usually I get a "7-5 is UNACCEPTABLE!!!! WE ARE MICHIGAN!!!! IF YOU ACCEPT 7-5 YOU'RE A LOSER!!!' vibe from you.

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March 11th, 2010 at 10:31 AM | Au contraire (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

While *in theory* I'm okay with the practice of giving coaches an arbitrary but seemingly acceptable number of years, like 5, that shouldn't apply in this case because:

1. we are MICHIGAN
2. the results have been, let's all be honest, EMBARRASSING
3. Lloyd did not leave the cupboard bare (only the reflexive RR lovers occasionally claim that nonsense)

and the biggest:

4. we are the WINNINGEST program of all, we are the LEADERS and BEST, we have (er, had) the bowl record, the winning season record...if you come in at a salary of millions of dollars a year and take that tradition and say essentially, 'no, I'm going to completely revamp this team into my style' then I say, okay, give it your best shot but it had damn well better work.

This team will not win the Big 10 this year, will not beat tOSU this year. RR swung for the fences -- and struck out. You can debate the reasons for this, hell, you can even say the ump made a bad call (to overdo the metaphor) but you can't argue with the RESULTS.

I am NOT hoping for bad things for the team -- MY TEAM -- this year. But I am not okay with how these 2/3 years have gone. If I were AD, I'd do just what the new guy is doing. Offering public support while making calls on the phone to see who might be available for 2011.

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March 11th, 2010 at 12:09 PM | I understand what you are (Score:1)
El Jeffe
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Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 6389

I understand what you are saying, but I not only don't agree with it, I don't get the logic behind it.

1. we are MICHIGAN

I don't know what this means. You know MICHIGAN has had some bad seasons in the past and bounced back, right? See, e.g., 1962-1964.

2. the results have been, let's all be honest, EMBARRASSING

Some of them have, some of them haven't. Were you embarrassed by the comeback against Wisconsin two years ago? Or the victory against ND last year? I hope not. Were you embarrassed by the collapse against Illinois? I hope so. Were you embarrassed by Appy State and Oregon three years ago? I hope so. I just don't see it as cut and dried as you seem to.

3. Lloyd did not leave the cupboard bare (only the reflexive RR lovers occasionally claim that nonsense)

I agree that it wasn't all Lloyd's fault, though Misopogon's diaries are pretty damning. But I disagree that the cupboard wasn't bare-ish, whether or not you place the blame on Lloyd.

4. we are the WINNINGEST program of all, we are the LEADERS and BEST...

One of these is factually true, the other is a slogan. How is either relevant to making coaching decisions? Let's say your point of view wins out and we hire someone new for next year. If that person does not go, say, 9-3, would you fire him too? How about the next guy? Would you continue to give coaches one- or two-year contracts until they meet your standards? Where would that lead?

I am NOT hoping for bad things for the team -- MY TEAM -- this year. But I am not okay with how these 2/3 years have gone.

There is nothing inconsistent or objectionable about these two sentiments. I think approximately 100% of the readers of MGoBlog feel the same way. Really the difference amounts to what you think a coach at Michigan ought to be given a chance to do, and how long they ought to be given a chance to do it.

I'm simply saying that invoking "We are MICHIGAN" and "this is UNACCEPTABLE" isn't really an argument for or against anything. Those, to me, are just vacant words that don't form the basis for any kind of logical argument.

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March 11th, 2010 at 3:01 PM | Appreciate the effort (Score:1)
InterM
InterM's picture
Joined: 01/16/2009
MGoPoints: 922

But, unfortunately, I don't think you're dealing with someone who believes in "logical argument." Nonetheless, you've done a great job of pointing out the reality faced by our new AD -- you can rail about the UNACCEPTABLE past all you want, but then you've got to actually figure out the best way to ensure the team's success going forward. This involves actual assessment of actual data -- not a strong point of the guy you're arguing with.

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March 11th, 2010 at 3:15 PM | On that point we're agreed (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

and it would appear, you don't follow your own advice

Time will prove me right, I fear, but we will be better in the long run.

Clearly, we have different expectations re expectations.

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March 10th, 2010 at 11:56 PM | I got time to be vindicated (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

trust me, it's a burden

as for my expectations, they were nothing short of nick saban at alabama

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:17 PM | Really? (Score:1)
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 32088

Everyone brings up Notre Dame, including the letter writer, (who also brings up Nebraska- the WORST Michigan comparison ever, because guess which coach Rich is in THAT transition), but has ND really failed because they have changed coaches too often (other than one, who proved in his next job he wasn't that good, they probably all got too long), but because they did a shitty job of picking them. Because for every rough transition (and there aren't really THAT many) you can name some quick turnarounds by new coaches. Heck, 2nd year national championships.

And as Brian points out, the situation would offset the other, more legitimate excuse for Rich, that he came into an uncharacteristic program downturn of talent and experience (alternating, sadly enough on sides of the ball). So the new guy would walk into one of those better situations for a turnaround.

It's year 3. No one is asking for National Titles, no one is asking for Big Ten Championships (boy, how fast our standards fall, eh?). But i don't think it's asking too much to put a product out there that's not SO bad you get fired. People thought we were accepting mediocrity when we accepted 8 or 9 win seasons. Now 3 bad years would be realist progress? We're just asking him to put up a record that would have had people calling for his job before. What's unrealistic about that?

The original letter writer wisely had his name left out, because it sounds like paranoid ramblings. Sounds like the emailer against Angelique on the radio today. When did it become about covering our ears and going la-la-la-la I can't hear you, and not about winning?

If everyone finding reasons why if he was let go it would be APOCALYPSE really had that much faith in Rich as a coach, they'd believe he can just WIN this year. Sometimes I think the people with doubts give him more credit as a good coach, BECAUSE they believe he should be doing better. Two years we've done probably not quite as expected. It's not that much to ask out of a great coach to overachieve one out of three years, is it, when we all really need it? Just fucking winand we don't have to worry about any next coach transition. Yeesh.

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:52 PM | It's perfectly reasonable to (Score:1)
aaamichfan
aaamichfan's picture
Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14085

It's perfectly reasonable to expect the team to win this year. I was moreso answering brianshall's jackass comment. If someone doesn't call him out, he might start claiming vindication again.

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March 11th, 2010 at 1:29 AM | Yeah, but I think you were doing it out of habit (Score:1)
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 32088

Because the initial response (the one that I in turn did) was actually reasonable and a valid comment on why the reason to not fire a coach because the program will be off the rails is silly, and a move out of fear. He was right. And didn't get bombed for it. Realism in that case isn't contrary.

Now, as it starts to get off the rails as it goes on, have at it. BS isn't really a troll...he has unpopular views, that he compounds his hurt (not points, but reputation) by bringing it up at unrelated times, and then often being dicky about it. But when he's making a fair point, in a non-inflamatory way, slamming on reputation just puts you on the wrong side of the argument and lowers you to his standards.

I mean, free world, do what you think is right. But I just think the slam responses work more effectively when they're for comments that deserve them. You're better than that.

And to be fair to you, I think my rant was more placed at that inane letter than you specifically. Your response just made it seem like validating it.

But I'm not the boss of you, so take it for what it's worth.

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

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March 11th, 2010 at 9:56 AM | Because it was titled "Girly (Score:1)
aaamichfan
aaamichfan's picture
Joined: 10/23/2009
MGoPoints: 14085

Because it was titled "Girly Men", I disagree with you about it not being an inflammatory comment. However, I agree that the slam responses are somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction. I'm just not a big fan of people making predictions and claiming to be vindicated before there is any proof. At this point, it almost seems like he is rooting for the team to lose next year.

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:15 PM | Michigan Mafia? (Score:1)
Keith
Joined: 03/10/2010
MGoPoints: 84

I'm relatively new here, so I admit that I could have missed an earlier discussion of the "Michigan Mafia". So at the risk of being redundant, what IS the Michigan Mafia? I have heard multiple people (not on this site) refer to this "organization" as a reason why RichRod will not make it to 2011.

Does this simply refer to wealthy alumni who mutter "this is unacceptable" as walking out of the stadium without knowing the names of more than five players on the team? Some members of the athletic department who have more power than Brandon himself? A group of hooded, robed individuals led by Dick Cheney who meets in dark-lit caves to plot the demise of any non-Schembechler disciple?

I compulsively downvote any usage of "lol".

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:24 PM | he knows (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

too much already

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:28 PM | I feel guilty....I told him... (Score:1)
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 32088

Now do I have to kill him?

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:23 PM | Brian (Score:1)
brianshall
Joined: 11/08/2009
MGoPoints: 16

take this bitch down

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March 10th, 2010 at 9:25 PM | Mafia Meaning (Score:1)
M-Wolverine
M-Wolverine's picture
Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 32088

There's two (or two and a half). The first is the Alumni who pull the strings at the University, or it can refer to just a reference to hard core fans in general, a catch all for both (and as we can see on this site, Michigan fans all agree and think alike, never arguing with each other about ANYTHING, so Foster MUST be right that there's a group of us pulling all the strings. Yeah. Right).

It also is a reference by him to his sources behind the scenes at Michigan. Harvey the talking rabbit, primarily, but also the tooth fairy on occassions.

People who talk to Terry Foster who actually have inside information are like people claiming to be his friends. Imaginary.

"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk

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March 11th, 2010 at 3:38 AM | Mafia (Score:1)
joeburner82
Joined: 01/19/2010
MGoPoints: 197

I think that the Michigan Mafia are the old people in Michigan Stadium that tell everyone to "sit down" on 3rd down. They are also the old people that yelled out "God dammit Carr!". Now, they are the old people that cannot differentiate between a spread option and the Wing T. Basically, they are the old people that are preventing my dream of a night game at Michigan Stadium. Can you imagaine a night game at Michigan Statdium? It would be so electric! Nevertheless, they are the old people that contribute the essential money to a successful athletic program.

Would anyone care for some hot chocolate, a cookie, or an apple?

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