so if rock bottom is facing potential sanctions and losing a recruit...then what happens when they get real sanctions and they lose a ton of recruits? drink the koolaid?
that's unfortunate, but at least the interest is there on both sides
Not really the devil, as I have met(!) Jason of 11 Warrior and had a cordial experience. Also he runs Drupal.
So Eleven Warriors took me up on my "someone argue OSU's sanctions shouldn't be as a bad as USC's" challenge, and even did so with a table. Let's take a look:
18 specific instances of violations by Reggie Bush or his family, including a house for his parents, a car (with new rims and a stereo), airfare, hotel stays, limo services, meals, car repairs, clothing, furniture and and appliances.
12 similar instances of violations out of basketball player OJ Mayo.
Running backs coach Todd McNair was found to have known or should have known of Bush's activity and was also cited for lying during the investigation.
Further violations by the women's tennis program and a failure of the athletic department's infrastructure when it came to oversight and policing.
Together, these findings led to a charge of Lack of Institutional Control.
An email trail that proved the head coach had knowledge of players forfeiting their eligibility, but did nothing to notify his superiors or compliance/enforcement staff.
UPDATED: Further, Tressel signed a statement attesting to the fact that he was unaware of any violations in the fall of 2010.
Additional athletes may have been involved in memorabilia-for-tattoos.
Potential improper benefits in the form of car deals for football players.
Terrelle Pryor allegedly received benefits in the form of free golf at a country club and is also alleged to have received $20,000-$40,000 in exchange for autographed memorabilia.
|FATE OF HEAD COACH||Bolted early for the NFL.||Forced the resignation of a beloved coach with otherwise excellent reputation amongst peers.|
|LEVEL OF COOPERATION||None||Ohio State has reported all findings to the NCAA on their own and has stayed in contact with the organization to assist with the investigation.|
|TAUNTING||Hired habitual scofflaw Lane Kiffin to replace Pete Carroll. AD Mike Garrett claimed the NCAA report was "nothing but a lot of envy".||None, unless you wanted to count the fumbled presser on March 8th. Which you shouldn't.|
Let's play the Feud!
USC's lack of institutional control charge was the major factor here and while Ohio State has not yet been hit with that allegation the Pac-10 has a primer on what does and does not qualify for a LOIC charge featuring a lot of components that should make OSU fans nervous.
Specifically called out is a head coach's responsibility:
A head coach fails to create and maintain an atmosphere for compliance within the program — the coach supervises or fails to monitor the activities of assistant coaches regarding compliance.
A head coach has special obligation to establish a spirit of compliance among the entire team, including assistant coaches, other staff and student-athletes. The head coach must generally observe the activities of assistant coaches and staff to determine if they are acting in compliance with NCAA rules. Too often, when assistant coaches are involved in a web of serious violations, head coaches profess ignorance, saying that they were too busy to know what was occurring and that they trusted their assistants. Such a
failure by head coaches to control their teams, alone or with the assistance of a staff member with compliance responsibilities, is a lack of institutional control.
This is not to imply that every violation by an assistant coach involves a lack of institutional control. If the head coach sets a proper tone of compliance and monitors the activities of all assistant coaches in the sport, the head coach cannot be charged with the secretive activities of an assistant bent on violating NCAA rules.
In this case Tressel can't even attempt to pass the buck since he is directly responsible.
Meanwhile, there have been multiple incidents that suggest institutional control is weak at best: the Plain-Dealer reports OSU was warned about Talbott in 2007 but still allowed players to leave tickets for him and remain on the sidelines as a photographer; a 2006 audit of OSU's car tracking found it inadequate, then found a third of the athletes were driving vehicles unknown to the department. They discovered this by checking cars at practice and examining university parking pass and ticket records. Ohio State stated it looked at Terrelle Pryor's three loaner tickets and decided a test drive to Pennsylvania did not constitute an extra benefit. As late as May Doug Archie, the director of compliance at OSU, responded to a question about why nine players had been issued citations in cars with dealer plates with "you'll have to ask the dealers"; even after the USC case established the need for "high profile compliance" of high profile players, Archie disavows any special attention to Pryor and other football players.
The Pac-10 document lays out a selection of "acts that are likely to demonstrate to a lack of institutional control," of which the head coach bit above is one. Ohio State appears to hit many of the others:
A person with compliance responsibilities fails to establish a proper system for compliance or fails to monitor the operations of a compliance system appropriately.
The explanatory text below notes that "the mere compilation and distribution of
rules and regulations, along with written compliance procedures, is not sufficient if no one regularly checks on the actual operations of the system."
A person with compliance responsibilities does not take steps to alter the system of compliance when there are indications the system is not working.
OSU's extremely high rate of secondary violations does not help them: "if there are a number of violations, even if they all are minor, indicating that the compliance system is not operating effectively, the person(s) responsible cannot ignore the situation, but must take steps to correct the compliance system." They constitute a warning that should have been, but was not heeded. They were an indication increased vigilance was needed.
A director of athletics or any other individual with compliance responsibilities fails to investigate or direct an investigation of a possible significant violation of NCAA rules or fails to report a violation properly.
Even if Tressel does not count here—and I'm pretty sure he doesn't since the next bullet is the one about head coaches—a pattern of evidence OSU players were getting deals on cars was either uninvestigated or rubber-stamped by the department; similarly, Ohio State's 11-day investigation into the tattoo business was insultingly brief and turned up no extra players whatsoever, something that has been brought into question by multiple media reports. Those media reports may involve dubious dudes name Ellis but they also involve former players like Robert Rose, who admitted his own NCAA violations, and Ray Small.
In light of the other issues it seems clear the goal of OSU's tatgate investigation was to offer the appearance of compliance instead of the actual thing. An actually diligent compliance department would have turned up more issues than those specifically told them by the Feds.
In conclusion, the guy whose job it is to ask the dealers responded to a media inquiry about the dealers by saying "you'll have to ask the dealers." When—and it is when*—the NCAA determines an unusual, easily detectable pattern of behavior was permitted to happen for years after Maurice Clarett's burglary report should have put the athletic department on alert, the LOIC charge will be inevitable.
Not very bonus for OSU fans: they are up for repeat violator status because of Boban Savovic, and unlike in previous cases where schools were technically up for extra penalties under that statute, here the nature of the violations is extremely similar.
*[This is the part at which Jason objects to most, I think:
MGoBlog, unsurprisingly, is more certain of that happening than you might be
I am inclined to believe there is not a reasonable explanation for the loaner cars, it's true. If you look at the situation at OSU—a dealership littered with memorabilia that sold some 50 Buckeyes cars and has seen nine different players ticketed in cars featuring dealer plates, including one Terrelle Pryor getting three separate tickets when any normal human would have been blacklisted after the first—and think the NCAA can possibly find no extra benefits, well… we are on different planets and talking to each other is pointless.]
Saying OSU self-reported its violations when they did nothing about the tattoos until they were notified by federal investigators is stretching things a bit. They literally took no action until someone else had done all the work for them. OSU's internal compliance measures failed to pick up any hint of wrongdoing. Meanwhile, it was OSU's legal department that originally caught the Cicero emails—not compliance.
So while OSU may have reported its violations to the NCAA, they only did so after a federal investigation and the legal department's intervention; in the aftermath they gave themselves a hilariously weak punishment.
The only difference between the fates of Pete Carroll and Jim Tressel was Carroll's foresight in his constant flirtations with the NFL. The NCAA will not give Ohio State credit for doing something they were going to have to do anyway once they put a show-cause on him.
USC did the same song and dance with the NCAA. Todd Dickey:
Since the allegations surfaced, USC has been working closely with the NCAA and the Pac-10 in an attempt to get to the truth.
Working in conjunction with the NCAA and the Pac-10 — we have already interviewed approximately 50 people and spent many hundreds of hours investigating these allegations. We have no idea how long this investigation will continue — and no one is more anxious to bring this process to a conclusion than we are — but we remain committed to getting to the truth.
USC has participated in every interview — except those few from which we were excluded. Our exclusion from these interviews mainly stemmed from demands from those making allegations against our student-athletes, insisting that no one from USC be present.
We have cooperated and worked together with the NCAA and Pac-10 every step of the way during this process and we intend to continue to do so.
Once you are in the hole, you can stop digging. Ohio State has stopped digging, but they are still in the hole. Way down in the hole. Not cooperating is asking to get SMU'ed; what Ohio State is doing now is the same thing USC did, the same thing any school does once in the crosshairs. It is not likely to see penalties reduced.
If we're counting Mike Garrett's ham-handed press conference, the "fumbled" presser on March 8th counts as well, as does Ohio State's excessively weak response to a serious every-coach-gets-fired 10.1 finding: a two game suspension.
Tressel later "resigned," something Gordon Gee insists was Tressel's own doing and not the university stepping forward to terminate the coach's contract. If he's smart—he's not—he will change that tune immediately, adopting a hang-dog Day of Great Shame rhetoric, and regretfully assert while Tressel was an excellent coach and leader of men he violated the principles the university lives by and had to be terminated.
Yeah, you guys are screwed.
so if rock bottom is facing potential sanctions and losing a recruit...then what happens when they get real sanctions and they lose a ton of recruits? drink the koolaid?
Perhaps one of the more damaging aspects of the OSU scandal is that Pryor got off scott-free. With all his violations, he actually served ZERO penalties for his actions. On top of that, I would think the NCAA will not be a happy camper that not only did they get conned into playing all the players in the bowl game.
that Pryor wanted to play for OSU next year, and has been effectively forced out of college football. It may not be much, but it's something.
Also, to those skeptical of the NCAA, and whether they're simply driven by the almighty dollar, the same argument was made for why they would never punish USC. OSU is no more of a cash-cow than USC, and their evidence directly against the school is more concrete in this case.
None of these schools are a cash cow to the NCAA; OSU is a cash cow to the B1G, and the university, and the bowls, nobody else.
The NCAA doesn't get any revenue from football TV contracts or bowls, and the NCAA basketball tournament is a pre-arranged contract that wouldn't lose the NCAA a dime if they put a death penalty on all of OSU athletics. Whatever the NCAA's motivation actually is, it isn't money.
I mentioned this before. Pryor needed his Senior year to prove he could be an NFL QB. If he succeeded enough to become a first rounder, which was entirely possible, this whole episode could have cost him millions of dollars over the course of his rookie contract.
He's probably been more penalized than anyone so far.
That's my only question regarding this excellent post. A lot of the fisking rests on the PAC 10 guidelines, are these the same as what the NCAA tells schools?
Wrecked a mercedes from a dealer in mid 90's on lane avenue. I was attending osu during that time and it was known that depending on your star status determined what you got. Stanley jackson drove a new ford ranger. I tried to search for news article to verify but can't find anything. If you dig you will find that this isn't isolated to jt.
In Buckeyeland, hope springs eternal.
Hoke doesn't spring eternal.
'Eleven Warriors?' Wow, what an absolutely crappy name for a crappy blog for a crappy football team from a crappy state.
is a good blog.
Their April Fools Day Bleacher Report parody absolutely won the interwebz... That was pure genius. I may disagree with 11W, and many posters over there may be delusional, but there is no question that the blog is well-run.
They delete well researched articles from the forum and banned me because I posted a link to the genuinely sarcastic post. They are literally leading a movement to keep the fans of OSU ignorent about the facts. Tells you about their character.
From following a few OSU blogs and talking to some OSU fans over the last few weeks, I think their major argument can be summarized thusly: The NCAA doesn't have any rock-hard proof of anything that has come to light over the last few weeks, and therefore, can't conclusively prove anything from the SI article, the OTL piece, or any other source which has made accusations in OSU's general direction. Therefore, all of those accusations will not be any part of any forthcoming NCAA decision or penalties. Basically, they are arguing (hoping?) for a free pass because the right people have and will remain tight-lipped, and in the meantime, fully believe that every accusation made against them in the above-mentioned sources is false until proven 100% true.
Any comments/insight on the NCAA's process when dealing with that situation? Does OSU get the benefit of the doubt where an accusation can't be backed up with a clear paper trail, or can the NCAA piece together enough evidence to bring the hammer down? I admit that my biggest worry is that absolutely all of the recent accusations will be completely ignored, and they will merely be penalized for the "Tressel knew and failed to report" thing, receiving something like 3 years of probation and a 3 year show-cause on Tressel, but no post-season ban, no scholarship reductions, or really any other punishment of substance.
"...doesn't have any rock hard proof."
This is the NCAA, not the judicial system. They don't need rock hard proof.
I'm aware, but the lack of any follow-up stories with any kind of legitimate paper trail has me concerned. As it stands, I just don't like how the NCAA has so much wriggle room to ignore those more-recent allegations, and that OSU fans can hold on to the hope that the key players in the scandal follow what seems to be the Ohio omerta.
When can/should we expect to see the notice of allegations amended, or a new one put forward? As their August hearing date creeps up with seemingly no further NCAA action, I remain skeptical that any of the new reports will actually be taken into account, and thinkg that OSU will somehow skip away unscathed by pointing the finger at Tressel (as the NCAA pretty much invited them to do in the original notice of allegations).
The NCAA basically had no hard proof in the Reggie Bush case and USC got blasted.
Can someone start to clearly quantify and aggregate the "bad actions" by all indivduals involved at tOSU to estiamte the potential true measure of penalty?
Is like watching old VHS Christmas tapes from your youth. Every time you go re-visit it, it keeps getting better, and you never want it to end...
is that the Genuinely Sarcastic comprehensive list is just a priamble to the full list of major infractions.
Eleven Warriors is slowly turning into Twelve Angry Men.
Mistah Cook for the prosecution!
Other than the original and already-punished actions of Pryor, Posey, etc., Tressel's failure to come foward about the emails from Cicero, and the statements by Small and Rose, no other evidence of wrongdoing has been nailed down. It could be that the car dealer that gave Pryor a three-day test drive does that with all of its prospective customers. I grant that that doesn't pass the smile test, but it's possible. I haven't seen anything else with car dealers that we can say for certain was a violation either (not counting Small's statement).
As to Talbott, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence but, again, nothing has been nailed down as far as we know. I want to hear from someone other than Sports by Brooks before I believe that the NCAA has checks that Talbott gave to Pryor.
I'm not saying that evidence of NCAA violations won't be found regarding any of the situations that I've mentioned - or even that it hasn't been found already - but there isn't much that can be said conclusively right now by those of us who are not NCAA investigators.
I think it depends on what the NCAA is willing to accept in terms of the allegations and the defense. If the NCAA has a witness and OSU doesn't have a good explanation, will that fly? If a witness doesn't have concrete evidence along with their accusation, will the NCAA give it credibility?
Right now it looks like Tressel is certainly cooked for another 10.1 regarding the golf outing, there should be both a paper trail and a witness, but the cash, cars, ect. might be very hard to get the NCAA to accept as true.
I also don't know - and I'm not making a rhetorical point when I say that - what standard of proof the NCAA uses. People on the blog have said that preponderance of the evidence is the standard, but I haven't seen any NCAA rules that say that (they may well exist). Does the NCAA even have a set evidentiary standard? I hope so but I don't know.
good research good structure good argument great presentation. that's how you win a debate. leave them no where to hide. check f*ckin mate.
are saying what we did was way worse than what has been going on at OSU. Sighhhh
I'd like an OSU student to head up to that car dealership, ask for a 3 day test drive, and see how that works out.
and gave it a try. I have a job, good credit and a paid off trade in worth about $7500. I went to the oft named Chevy dealership to look at new cars for 2 reasons. First, my Wife and I are expecting and my current vehicle is not family friendly (while true, this was really just a good story for the salesman). In reality, I wasn't really looking to buy anything, and I kinda wanted to go check the place out, see if there was memorabilia still on the walls and kill some time on a lazy Sunday afternoon.
While I was there, I was checking out a car and the salesman was trying to get me to take it for a test ride. I told him that I was really just starting my search, wasn't ready to get so serious about a car yet, and yet he persisted. I continued by telling him that we had recently moved, I wanted to wait a bit and get settled in the new house and job, and further, I'd probably just end up going back to the same dealer in Cleveland my wife and I had bought our pervious 4 cars from (since 1998) . He persisted, as salesmen are wont to do. FInally I told him that I could take it for a ride, but I wouldn't be comfortable buying any car unless my mechanic, who lived near Cleveland, could take a look at it.
Guess what? He stopped pushing so hard after that. Apparently they would not be able to let take the car for that long of a time/trip. Surprise surprise
I think it's funny how 11W accuses Brian of being biased,** because I certainly don't see an ounce of bias in the OSU side of the table. 11W is usually a pretty darn good blog, but I'm afraid they're leading their readers down the path of ignorance on this whole thing.
**"Bias" is not an adjective, people. A person cannot be bias. They are biased. Preemptive strike on a pet peeve.
BC is as biased as I am, which is a whole lot. But, 90% of the above is just a recitation of facts and fairly logical inductions. I didn't need him to give me the conclusion; it was obvious from everything above. So, who cares about bias?
Brian is pretty bias.
: diagonal, slanting -- used chiefly of fabrics and their cut
And yes, I think Brian has a lot to do with slanting cuts of fabrics. A lot.
EDIT: I know you said a person cannot be bias. But you first said bias isn't an adjective. Don't hate me because I'm selective.
Now everyone stand back and watch the messenger-blaming continue.
(On a more substantive note, does anyone else notice how the 11W table counts Pete Carroll bolting for the NFL as a debit, but on the OSU side of the ledger they don't even include Terrelle Pryor doing the same thing?)
Will be interesting to see how 11W responds. Somehow I'm guessing it won't be "Oh crap, you're right. We're screwed."
I've stopped over to 11 Warriors a few times and have always found the guy to be completely delusional regarding what is going on. His biggest beef seems to be that Tressel did not do his usual good job of covering up the cheating so maybe it is time to bring in a fresh and better cheater. At no time has there ever been the slightest acknoledgement that there is something rotten in Columbus.
I got the same vibe over there... A few comments about how glad they are Pryor is gone so he won't have to detail their cheating. WTF? What ever happened to caring about the truth? Ohio State's success was due to cheating. How can anyone be proud of that?
In congruence with mich_engineer's observations, the OSU position seems that under the current notice of allegations the penalties will not be as severe and certainly not worse than the USC sanctions. In buckeyes view, any new potential violations are not to be piled on as irrefutable even if they fail the eye and nose tests (see: Cam Newton). The debatable issue here is whether or not the additional information that has been made public after the notice of allegations will affect the investigation and its outcome.
As an M fan when I compare our recent history with NCAA investigationsto the current situation this reminds me of a quote from Braveheart - "God tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're fucked."
I can't stop laughing from the "Forced the resignation of a beloved coach with otherwise excellent reputation amongst peers" part.
The one thing to keep in mind about USC vs. OSU is that I think it's right that the NCAA had a lot of suspicions about other stuff that they couldn't get enough goods on to include in their report. How much of that and how it compares to OSU, I don't know, but it's relevant. It's not just a matter of the NCAA hammering USC b/c one coach knew of one athlete getting benefits. But, then again, here's hoping that the NCAA tacks on the same for OSU if there isn't sufficient proof.
"Ohio State has reported all findings to the NCAA on their own and has stayed in contact with the organization to assist with the investigation."
The only thing missing is the "/sarc" tag.
but i think this clip is the beginning of adam sandler's descent from hilarious billy madison to "what if i were a guy with a remote control that controlled the world"
OSU, this fits:
RIP C. Farley
"WAKE UP SLUT...TIME TO PAY THE FIDDLER WHORE"
Let's not forget that OSU was already on a 3 year probation for exactly the same types of violations in the men's Basketball program, at the time Pryor was getting $$ for autographs from Talbot, while football players were getting sweatheart deals on cars and tat's ("cat's been getting hook-ups on Tat's since 2003" I believe was the quote).
There's a lot of evidence that similar things were going on at a time when the university should have known about it (since they were on probation and all), LOIC is not only assured, but the penalty starts to reach the Death Penalty zone.
SMU got the death penalty in large part because they were put on probation, and then promptly ignored that probation and kept doing what they had been. Kentucky's men's basketball in 1987 almost got the death penalty because the coach certified that players were eligible who he knew weren't, and recruits were recieving improper benefits from one of the assistant coaches. The only difference with OSU is that the coaches looked the other way while a known memorabilia dealer took their star player golfing. That is, they let a proxy do the paying, and just ignorned it despite being warned by people outside the university. All while on probation.
Kentucky didn't get the death penalty primarily becuase the University president admitted failures, fired the AD, the basketball coach and entire staff, and imposed harsh penalties on himself.
OSU's president conducted a shame investigation, said he only hoped the coach wouldn't fire him, fired him only after the media showed how obviously deep the infractions ran, replaced the coach with the assistant coach, and still hasn't fired the AD or his compliance staff.
OSU is fucked.
I would love to agree with you completely except I think he conducted a sham investigation.
But a shame investigation would be an excellent idea. As in, where is the shame, because you clearly have none?