I found this interview really interesting all in all. Clemons talks about values and how he fit under Carr and RichRod and how hard it is leaving Michigan.
Interview with Toney Clemons
Justin B***n has been tried and found guilty on one count of Severe Selfishness, one count of Being A Giant Whining Vagina, and one count of Gross Assholeitude. His sentence:
- Exile to Columbus and hard labor plowing snow in the winter.
- Being made to play in a big toilet-shaped dump.
- Taking classes from Toney Clemons on How To Leave a School With Grace and Class.
He said "to be honest with you" nine times. Huh. Could we have a professional psychoanalyze that interview, please?
I'm not a professional, but I play one on the internet. "To be honest with you," is a typical verbal tic used to keep the listener's interest when the speaker is about to make a statement. Similarly, to ensure that the listener is still following along, he adds "you know?" as a tag question at the end of a lot of his statements.
Nothing in there was a shot at Michigan from what I can tell. Clemons wasn't happy and didn't believe he fit in here anymore, so, he transferred.
End of story.
Maybe not "a shot at Michigan," but definitely not pleasant reading as a U-M fan. Maybe I was just naive to think anyone could replace Lloyd Carr as a father figure these days.
A "father figure" is not what anyone should have expected from Rich Rodriguez. He's a young-ish coach who's somewhat brash, has a high-speed offense, and bailed on his contract at WVU.
None of those descriptors leads to the conclusion "father figure."
So father figures can't be in their 40s, or run high-powered offenses, or ever leave their jobs for a better one?
If I were looking for a father figure, he might have to be older than 46.
If I were looking for a father figure, I wouldn't expect him to run a high-intensity, no-huddle offense. I would expect him to be a little more conventional.
And most of all, if I were looking for a father figure, I would not try to find him in a man who had a very public, nasty, contract-breaking departure from his previous school. Most "father figures" would, in my opinion, tell their players to follow through with their word and commitments.
Rodriguez is a lot of things, but a father figure doesn't seem to be one of them.
A) How does age matter?
B) Not everyone is conventional.
C) The way the departure happened wasn't his fault. WVU is fucking nuts. I also wouldn't hold trying to improve his life against a father figure.
A) Fathers are usually older. If Lloyd Carr were 35 or 40 years old, I bet he would seem less like a father figure.
B) That is correct.
C) I never said Rodriguez's messy departure from WVU was his fault. Improving his life can't be held against him; breaking his contract a year after signing a lucrative contract can be held against him.
Perhaps this could be solved easier by asking this: Does ANYONE picture Rodriguez as a father figure? I sure don't.
And I think it's unfortunate. While being a "father figure" is certainly not in the first few attributes I'd look for in hiring a football coach, I think it's one of those extras that are great to have, and to have that reputation also makes parents and other people more likely to advocate for you to kids.
And I disagree with someone above who said they didn't see anything negative here. When a guy says that the main difference between the Carr regime and RR's regime is that Carr and staff "cared about you as a person first," that is something that will be used as negative recruiting against us, and also feed the negative MSM perception. Both of those things are liable to hurt recruiting in the near term.
I support RR and the staff, but I miss the personal aspect of Carr and find it unfortunate that it's gone.
As long as he helps them grow as men and as players, I don't care if they look up to him as an aunt, uncle, brother, father, or cousin.
The issue is that RRod seems to be less invested in them growing as men than Carr was. Carr, though, was exceptional in that way. He was, sadly, an anachronism in an ever more professionalized game.
that he addresses the man part of your sentence. Which again, does not disqualify him as our coach, but that aspect is one of the reasons why Michigan is special, and past coaches had that.
"When they came down the tunnel, and I'm standing 10 yards from that tunnel and Rich Rodriguez came down with the seniors, and I took one look in his eye, and I said, 'That's my guy.' I've seen that look before, I've played for him. His name was Bo Schembechler, and I'm damn proud (Rodriguez is) here." ~ Rick Leach
So if Rick Leach, who's never even played for Rodriguez, likes the look in his eyes on game day, whatever that means, that's enough to resolve this issue in your mind? If something that weak is seriously among the strongest evidence that Rodriguez cares for his players, as men, the way Carr did, it should only reinforce our questions.
as far better evidence of my point
Perhaps this could be solved easier by asking this: Does ANYONE picture Rodriguez as a father figure? I sure don't.
I do. I think pretty much all college football coaches serve as father figures to their players. They recruit them when they're 16-17 years old, then guide them (well, if they're not named Saban) until they're 22-23. Often, they become the dominant male figure in the kids' lives. You could argue that RR might not be a father figure to the current upperclassmen on the team, because he didn't recruit them and has only coached them a year, but that will change as new classes come in here. Your reasoning here is really bizarre and not very convincing.
The issue here isn't whether he's influential or not. The question is, Does he seem like a father figure? If your argument is that all college coaches are father figures - and we'll assume that's true, for the sake of discussion - then I guess my argument would be that Rodriguez is LESS of a father figure than many other coaches.
past (Bo and Carr, I don't know about Moeller, though), that is certainly true.
And compared to some of the old-times (JoPa and Bowden - well, grandfather figures certainly, Pete Carroll, Mack Brown, Tressel), RR doesn't quite match them. But compared to the younger coaches (Urban Meyer, Fitzgerald, ), I could see it.
But maybe, rather than the type of offense, or to what extent he honors contracts, its really just an appearance/gray hair thing. (I included appearance because I don't know where the hell to put Charlie Weis)
So, are we going to have to rename this the "Who's your Daddy, Magnus?" thread?
So basically, Magnus, your argument comes down to "RR's personality is different than Lloyd's, so he must be a worse person." The notion that people can have different personalities and achieve the same result (grooming teenage football players into productive young men) seems utterly lost on you.
You seem to be falling for the silly "We're Michigan and we're different (and better) than everyone else" delusion. I can pretty much guarantee you that ex-players at other schools say the same things about their coaches as ours do about Lloyd. And you know what? There were coaches out there whose players graduated at higher rates than Carr's did, and who got in trouble off the field less often. In RR's first year, the football team's GPA was higher than it ever was under Carr. (Doesn't a good father figure promote the importance of education?) I liked Lloyd and all, but let's let go of this notion that he was this saint who left an impossible act to follow.
You need to read what I say and not what you think I said.
I never said Rodriguez is a bad person. Or even a worse person. I said he doesn't fit the role of "father figure" in my opinion.
I've had coaches before who haven't been father figures. I've worked with coaches before who haven't been father figures. My high school's head coach currently isn't a father figure, but we have a good football team. He's a good person.
Please don't put words in my mouth.
father figures don't run high-intensity, no-huddle offenses? father figures are more conventional?
why does the type of offense that RR runs matter in terms of him being a father figure?
Also, the age doesn't matter in terms of being a father figure (remember, 'father figure' not actual father). You do know that Bo Schembechler was only 40 when he took over Michigan, right? And his players considered him to be a 'father figure'.
I'm not saying they DON'T or CAN'T. But you would expect fatherly types to be a little more conventional. It's not just that, but in combination with other reasons, that's how I see it.
Also, did Bo Schembechler's players see him as a father figure when he was 40? I don't know. Maybe he didn't take over that role until he got a little bit older.
Like I said, if anyone here pictures Rich Rodriguez as a father figure type, please speak up... Otherwise, I'll just assume we're all on the same page: that he's a good football coach, not really a father figure.
i agree in that i'm not convinced that RR has shown to be the father figure that Bo or Lloyd was but I just didn't agree with the reasons you gave.
I really hope that he does grow into that role b/c that was one of the finer details that made our program what it was.
Who else is sick of Magnus' know it all bull?
Who are you?
I like Magnus. (In a completely heterosexual way, of course.)
I think each one of us on this board has [ouch, bad grammar correction] disagreed with the Magnus at one time or another (for the record, I find his reasoning here suspect). But overall he is one of most consistently rational and informed posters here. This board would much the worse without him.
You, Mr. McFarlin, have proved yourself to be the opposite of all of the above - most disagree with you all of the time, you are consistently irrational, and ill-informed. This board is much better without you.
Time spent recruiting and developing a kid add a lot to the fatherly figure relationship a kid will have with a coach. Also, Toney sounds a little selfish here. I get that he tried, but I don't think the full buy in was there. If you are unhappy or think you are being treated unfairly, or think that you are more talented than kids getting snaps, it will be hard to look at the authority figure in charge as a fatherly type, especially when you do not know him that well.
Rodriguez has mentioned several times in interviews or press conferences that when taking over a team, it takes a few years to get the comfort level and really get to know the kids on the team. He was sad he only had one year with the seniors last year.
I think it makes a difference if you start recruiting a kid as a junior in high school and build a solid foundation of a relationship. It is much more likely to turn into a father-figure type of situation over 2 years being recruited and 4 or 5 years of playing for someone than one or two years after a coaching change.
Recruits do say they like the family like environment though.
Clemons comes across as a really thoughtful and perceptive guy in this interview. Best of luck to him.
yeah, he seems like an intelligent, composed guy who will do well wherever he goes. But the part of that equation, which many miss, is that "wherever" doesn't mean "anywhere". A big part is choosing the right place to be. And UM is not the right place for some. Leaving in a dignified manner (i.e., not like that immature kid who went to that school down south) means he still did well at UM.
When he does what?
I lost my train of thought. Well something came along and I lost my train of thought...move along...
I was a friend of toney's when he was still at school and he never had anything bad to say about coach rodriguez. It is a simple as they were just different coaches. He liked different things about both of them. He told me that Michigan will always be his number 1 but he did just not have a spot here. He is the kind of kid you would want to represent your team and we should all wish him well.
I would never complain about somebody transfering simply because they tried, and it didn't really work for them. Gotta go where you can be successful. You'll notice he never said he was upset they didn't win. Good kid. I like 'im.
Did he get a record deal? I don't feel like reading all this
Yes, he got a record deal. He's trying a new musical "synergy" of speed metal and classical jazz. Not that I want to C&P the article, but Toney stated:
"I always felt something was missing when I practiced under Coach Rodriguez. I could never put my finger on it before, but I finally had an epiphany. Coach Carr always allowed an array of different, competing music, usually between the smooth horned instruments of his classical jazz, and the heavy guitar and drums some players' speed metal. In retrospect, I realized that it just...I don't know...it worked, and times were good. I need to recreate that experience."
Now, I realize that was still a lot to take in, so feel free to take a nap after reading this.
Thanks i'll do just that...
Didn't RR and the rest of his staff have players over at their position coach's house for supper?