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Imbibe This Terminology

By Brian — August 20th, 2009 at 11:53 AM — 17 comments
Filed under:
  • 4-3 under
  • brandon graham
  • crab people
  • craig roh
  • deathbacker
  • diaries that are awesome
  • mike martin
  • ryan van bergen
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mike-martin The following article is a little old but I ripped it out of an Unverified Voracity a little ways back because Steve Sharik posted an excellent diary on what we can expect from the defense this fall and it felt like it would be a standalone post. (BTW: Sharik has posted another diary about the triple option, which Markus from Carcajous(!) has followed up on.)

So the quick/spinner lingo that we've been using ever since Greg Robinson was hired, confusion over which led to commenters on this here blog to coin the term "deathbacker" has been clarified. One term does not exist, and the other one has been superseded:

There’s not much hybrid about the linebacker-safety position Stevie Brown will play this year. Robinson said he doesn’t call the position “spinner” or anything else. “He’s our SAM,” or strong-side linebacker, Robinson said.

There is, however, new terminology for the defensive line. Robinson calls those positions the quick, power, nose and tackle. The “quick” is the hybrid linebacker-end you’ve heard about (Brandon Herron); the “power” is an old-school defensive end (Brandon Graham); the “nose” is your typical nosetackle (Mike Martin); and the “tackle” can sometimes flex out and play end in four-man fronts (Ryan Van Bergen).

Wait, so Stevie Brown is a strongside linebacker? Um. I had assumed he was the weakside linebacker, who is a protected player in a 4-3 under and gets "his meat cooked." (That's how Jeff Casteel described the weakside LB/S in the 3-3-5 DVD I purchased when I thought Casteel was going to be the DC around these parts. The strongside linebacker "got his meat raw," which meant he usually had to deal with a blocker. Those terms have been rattling around in my head for two years now, and now they'll be rattling around in yours. Mwa ha ha.)

A protected player doesn't usually have to take on blockers and can just run to the ball and (hopefully) make a tackle. This fits in well with a converted safety at linebacker, but I'm (and we are, right?) pretty leery about Brown even if he's not taking on blockers every play. This won't make much difference against spread teams—it'll be worlds better than pretending Johnny Thompson can cover anyone—but if Wisconsin and Michigan State don't suck I can see him getting run over consistently. That's assuming they don't make a change for power-running teams, which was an excellent assumption under Shafer (Johnny Thompson third and long what?) but hopefully won't be one under Robinson.

Sharik talks about what he expects the defense to be in the diaries, and it's not a 4-3 under. It's kind of a 4-3 under, actually, but it's flipped:

I assume that Graham will most often be the weakside 5 technique. Not only that, he'll probably be a "wide" 5, meaning he'll line up a yard outside the tackle, angled in at the tackle's nose. This means two things: one, he won't be inside (generally) and therefore two, it will be virtually impossible to double him in run situations. (He'll probably be doubled in pass situations, but that's likely to happen regardless of his alignment. This tends to happen when you are a freak of nature and can make QB's look like Beetle Bailey after an angry Sarge has gotten hold of him.)

Mike Martin will play a weakside shade or 1 technique (usually), meaning those two beasts will be on the same side of the DL most of the time. I would think opponents would run away from those two, which is where Michigan will have a numbers advantage. So, the offense will have to chose between:

A: running at two future NFL 1st round draft picks at DL, backed up by a potential 1st team all B10 middle LB (Obi Ezeh) and a former 5-star recruit at weakside OLB (Mouton)
B: running where the defense has superior numbers

Michigan showed this formation for most of the spring game… sort of. Van Bergen went out early and Graham played sparingly.

Ezeh as a potential first team all-conference player is a considerable stretch, but the rest of it sounds good. In a 4-3 under the deathbacker sits even farther outside the tackle and is used as a freelance sower of chaos a la Shawn Crable; this is something I assume you'll see on passing plays. Having all the hybrids around allows Michigan to flip which side of the line those guys show up on without revealing a personnel change:

The "quick" can play strong side or weak; so can the "spinner." The "quick" can play w/hand down or not. The "spinner" can play on the LOS, at LB depth, or even in the secondary. The "quick" can play on the LOS or at LB depth.

This jives with comments from Van Bergen that he's usually going to be a three-technique defensive tackle but will move out to a five-technique defensive end from time to time when Michigan either goes with a two-gap look (infrequently, IME) or flips the deathbacker to the other side of the formation.

It certainly sounds good. Sharik details the various packages his high school team ran last year, which are customized to the opponent's strength and provided considerable flexibility. I'll be terribly pleased to see a defensive back-type object heading out into the slot against spread sets instead of Johnny Thompson. And opposing teams are going to have to prepare for a multitude of looks. In theory, it's a defensive equivalent of Michigan's offense and when it's had talent in the past it's been excellent.

Whether or not the Michigan defense has "talent" in the overarching sense is yet to be determined.

BONUS HYPE: I've been talking up incoming freshman Craig Roh for a while now, saying that despite his wiry frame Michigan will be virtually forced to use him because of a lack of deathbacker depth. And lo, it is so. Rodriguez on the crab man:

"It’s only been one week, but he’s got some natural ability, pass-rush wise, and we’re teaching him some different things in the scheme of our defense. But I think he could help us at least in a pass-rush mode and then as he continues to learn the defense he’ll do more and more of it."

Van Bergen, meanwhile, says he's "raw" but is a "really skilled" pass rusher. It might take him a couple games but I'd be surprised if he's not a part of the nickel package, and soon. If he's not that means Brandon Herron is way better than he has any right to be.

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August 20th, 2009 at 12:04 PM | Perhaps against power running (Score:1)
wolverinekeith
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 3

Perhaps against power running schemes we'll see Brown replaced by JB Fitzgerald? Reports on JB are good and he's got at least 3 inches and 30 pounds on Stevie.

Oh, and can "Crab Man" be Roh's official nickname, much as Butler went by Manbearfreak? Please?

Chicago, IL

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August 20th, 2009 at 12:19 PM | No (Score:1)
baleedat
baleedat's picture
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 272

His official nickname is 'Death Roh'

IMHE

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August 20th, 2009 at 12:48 PM | I second that. (Score:1)
Maize_and_Drew
Maize_and_Drew's picture
Joined: 08/11/2009
MGoPoints: 1622

All those in favor of Death Roh say aye.

Flush twice - it's a long way to Columbus.

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August 20th, 2009 at 12:51 PM | aye (Score:1)
lunchboxthegoat
lunchboxthegoat's picture
Joined: 10/07/2008
MGoPoints: 1664

aye

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August 20th, 2009 at 1:23 PM | aye (Score:1)
dieforM
dieforM's picture
Joined: 04/27/2009
MGoPoints: 20

Death Roh records

Tate Forcier can win Connect Four in three moves.

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August 20th, 2009 at 12:31 PM | The D seems to be coming (Score:1)
aenima0311
aenima0311's picture
Joined: 11/21/2008
MGoPoints: 477

The D seems to be coming together, as long as nobody gets hurt, winded or stops being effective.

Pronounced Ahh-Neh-Muh

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August 20th, 2009 at 12:52 PM | Greg Robinson's Defense: Video Archives (Score:1)
wiscwood
wiscwood's picture
Joined: 07/24/2009
MGoPoints: 31

Seeing this defense, mentally, is somewhat hard. Terminology like "Spinner" , "Quick" etc. will have to be seen in action. The Michigan Defense will be a point of interest this year. The video archives of Robinson's defenses need to be accessed. I'd be interested in seeing them in action.

"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield" --Alfred Lord Tennyson/ John Sheridan B5

 

                 &n

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August 20th, 2009 at 1:23 PM | I just hope that Stevie (Score:1)
wolverinekeith
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 3

I just hope that Stevie sticks his arms out like a helicopter and makes a motor noise with his mouth as he "spins" around the field. That alone would at least confuse the offense.

Chicago, IL

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August 20th, 2009 at 1:01 PM | We will have to wait to see the defense in actuality (Score:1)
Wolv54
Wolv54's picture
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 94

but, as I discussed with Brian at the tailgate, I think moving brown closer to the LOS benefits him as it cuts down on his time to think and he'll just have to react. I think his mistakes are partially to be blamed on his head and over-thinking when in space. The concern about taking on blockers is real, but, as it was stated in the post, there will be numbers on the strong side if both BG and MM are lined up on the weak side. That is the entire design of the 4-3 under if you have a strength like BG and MM, you depend on them to defend the run to the weakside and bring numbers to the other side. Part of the thing that is missed in the explanation of a 4-3 Under is that it can be a transition defense from a 40 front scheme (4 DL) to a 30 front (3 DL). I expect to see more 30 fronts as the year goes on against spread teams and as a look to the future. It will be interesting to see how they recruit DL and LB going forward.

I don't have any charts or fancy statistics to post, but the real test of this defense will come from the effectiveness of the front 4(that includes all sorts of hybrid DE/LB types) to get pressure without commiting to many to a blitz. If we can bring pressure from the front 4 with a multitude of alignments, then the secondary will benefit unless we still can cover for even the smallest of windows.

Roh should see the field this year as all reports are he's got a great first step, which is one of the most telling signs of a great pass rusher. technique, strength, and experience are all important too, but you have to have a naturally quick first step so that you can punch the tackle in the mouth as soon as he lifts.

Damn, would sept 5th get here already, I'm tired of talking about this shit and I want to see some football.

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August 20th, 2009 at 1:27 PM | Defense (Score:1)
mgovictors23
mgovictors23's picture
Joined: 05/03/2009
MGoPoints: 91

It will be interesting to see September 5th what type of formations we are running and how we play defensively.

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August 20th, 2009 at 2:10 PM | This is all getting clearer, (Score:1)
WolvinLA
WolvinLA's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 869

This is all getting clearer, but is there any way we could get a visual, like a diagram with labels? That would be pretty awesome. I'm a visual learner.

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August 20th, 2009 at 2:41 PM | HTTV has an even better (Score:1)
wile_e8
wile_e8's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 2215

HTTV has an even better article all about the 4-3 under and the philosophy behind it. I'm pretty sure it has diagrams and pictures too, although I don't have my copy with me right now.

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August 20th, 2009 at 2:55 PM | I really, really, really (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6207

I really, really, really think that this is the same thing that Lloyd ran as Bo's and Moeller's DC, and then at the start of his head coaching time:

He had a nose tackle, a defensive tackle, a DE, and 4 LB's - one of whom was a "Rush Linebacker".

If you recall, in 1997, for instance:

Nose Tackle: Rob Renes
DT: Josh Williams
DE: Glenn Steele
LB's: Sam Sword, Dhani Jones, Clint Copenhaver, James Hall

But, Hall, if you recall, lead the team in sacks, form his LB position. I believe that his "Rush Linebacker" is the same thing as Gerg's "Quick". But it's still a variable front - just sometimes the 4th LB - the "quick" or "rush linebacker", comes down to the line, and sometimes he doesn't.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

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August 20th, 2009 at 3:11 PM | You're correct, it's the same thing (Score:1)
Wolv54
Wolv54's picture
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 94

Forget the fancy words of spinner and quick and it is the same. It is also the precursor to the 3-4 and the zone blitz scheme Jim Hermann used to win the NC, which had not yet been used in CFB like we did in 97, but soon everyone was doing some zone blitz out of a 3-4 or 4-3 under

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August 20th, 2009 at 3:18 PM | I actually think this is the (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6207

I actually think this is the exact scheme used in 1997 and 1998 - really until Hall left. We used 4 LB's, but one often behaved like a DE.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

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August 20th, 2009 at 3:02 PM | Defensive terminology (Score:1)
Heinous Wagner
Heinous Wagner's picture
Joined: 08/10/2009
MGoPoints: 75

So glad Robinson is not using the term "spinner." That doesn't exactly sound fearful. I don't think Tim Hiller and the Broncos just 15 miles down the road from me are quivering in their boots. Now, "deathbacker" may be another story. In a word association test, "spinner" elicits the response "rubberband man."

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August 20th, 2009 at 10:34 PM | HTTV article on the 4-3 under (Score:1)
pdxblue
pdxblue's picture
Joined: 11/02/2008
MGoPoints: 230

Brian

I thought the article on the 4-3 under in HTTV was very helpful. How does this scheme differ from that outline? I guess could have pulled out the article...but I'm on vacation and that would be too much work.

Overall, this year just feels "different." I am excited and looking forward to it.

Go Blue!

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