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If 12 SEC Coaches Are Against It, It Can't Be All Bad

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By Brian — June 6th, 2011 at 1:01 PM — 30 comments
Filed under:
  • nick saban
  • oversigning
  • sec
  • someone else comes up with a simple solution to something that's definitely a problem

nick-saban-statue3StElsewhereS1

For some reason they put a statue of Barry Switzer outside of Nick Saban Memorial Hospital. Seriously, why did Alabama put up a statue of Barry Switzer? I'm so confused.

Despite getting a unanimous raspberry from Saban, Nutt, et al., the SEC did in fact pass their oversigning legislation. An earlier post covers the particulars, but to recap:

  • SEC teams can only sign 25 a year, down from 28. You can still backdate early enrollees.
  • There's going to be some sort of conference overview of St. Saban Memorial Hospital.
  • Attending summer school counts as enrollment—no more Elliott Porters.
  • Anyone transferring to an SEC school must have at least two years of eligibility—no more Jeremiah Masolis.

That last one is kind of beside the point, but since these grad exemptions are pretty close to free agency it's understandable why they were an issue to be addressed. The arrival of Masoli and Florida pirating an all-conference cornerback from Utah were evidently unsettling, so no more of that.

It's the oversigning stuff that's everyone main focus, though, and passing those bylaws has been met by another raspberry, this one media-based. A Jeff Schultz from the AJC:

The SEC, as the highest-profile college football conference in the nation, had a chance to make a loud statement at its meetings this week. It kind of wimped out. Rather than attack the oversigning problem with significant legislation, it decided only that it would lower the annual scholarship offer cap from 28 to 25.

Let me translate: Coaches now have a lower limit as to how unethical and morally reprehensible they can be. Feel better?

This was sort of like the real SEC passing a rule: “We recognize that insider trading is a problem. So we’re going to cap profits from said illegal transactions at $2.7 million.”

Oversigning.com is Not Pleased. Get The Picture is a bit underwhelmed as well.

While both parties are right that the Big Ten's approach cuts down on the churn and the SEC is not going that far, the legislation they passed will have a real impact. As mentioned in the earlier post, if this had been around the last four years Auburn would have signed 19 fewer kids—almost an entire class—Alabama 13, South Carolina 11, and so forth down the line. Cropping the limit from 28 to 25 cuts the cuts by about half at the worst offenders.

Meanwhile, adopting the Big Ten approach (you can only sign three more kids than you have available scholarships, and you have to petition the conference to do so) doesn't necessarily cut down on attrition. It just moves the abattoir from "whenever we find out if this guy qualified" to late January. While a combination of both rules is ideal, either in isolation is exploitable.

So this is exploitable, yes, but less so than it was before. It's something between pure public relations and Total Internet Victory. Partial internet victory is still kind of something—whine for five years and people will give ground. Nick Saban was pissed off when this happened. That's a heuristic that indicates a step in the right direction. While it could be better, complaints about the proposal are making the perfect an enemy of the good.

Someone else comes up with a simple solution to something that's definitely a problem. That said, I love love love the idea the first commenter on the above-linked Oversigning.com post lays out:

If we are going to create a new system, why not get rid of the 85 scholarship limit. What makes that number so valuable? Why not just set an annual signing limit of (pick a number) 30 to 35. Make the grants for 5 years and allow 5 years of participation (eliminate redshirts and medicals).

Under the system describe above the onus is placed squarely on coaches to evaluate, motivate, train and retain signees. May the best coach win.

30 to 35 is excessive, especially if you're giving everyone five years. That almost doubles the number of kids on scholarship, which will be fought by smaller schools and make life under the dominion of Title IX even more difficult for non-revenue men's sports.

HOWEVA, There is a number (somewhere from 22 to 25) that provides rosters approximately equivalent to today's and rewards keeping kids around in case they become useful. Once you find that number all of this goes away because you no longer have the perverse incentives the current system offers. In this hypothetical world people are mad at Nick Saban for being ruthlessly better at avoiding attrition. Another guy later makes a point that's especially salient what with all the chatter about full cost of attendance scholarships:

Scholarship limitations are not in the best interest of the SA. Scholarship limitations are about parity, which in is in the interest of the institutions. To make arguments about over-signing being evil is like saying we want what is best for the SA as long as it does not hurt my school. Which is to say the main goal is not the SA’s best interest, but the institutions.

If big programs want to move towards a system that places student-athlete welfare first, leaving San Jose State to pound sand, that benefits everyone worth benefiting.

(A few details I'd propose:

  • Transfers in count as fresh enrollees.
  • There would be a limit, probably 85, that once under you could offer scholarships to walk-ons if you wanted.
  • You might have to offer some sort of leniency for schools that recruit a lot of JUCOs. This system places a premium on keeping kids around for four and five years and turns a JUCO from a easily replaceable quick fix to a guy who's an empty scholarship for two or three years. Guys who go to JUCO are mostly reclamation projects that college football should be striving to help, so maybe you can get a scholarship here and there back "early."

)

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:11 PM | scholarships should have a (Score:0 Overrated)
ish
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7682

scholarships should have a lineage.  you should be able to use one as soon as it opens up.  as soon as it closes, the (e.g.) "#74" scholarship is off limits until the player graduates, goes to the nfl, transfers, drops out, etc. 

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:47 PM | If I understand you correctly, (Score:3 Normal)
MKEblue
Joined: 01/16/2011
MGoPoints: 88

wouldn't this create an incentive for coaches to force a player out if he's not producing? Increasing attrition of unproductive players would make you more competitive by opening up that scholarship. Seems counter-productive.

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:16 PM | I thought they were making this the statue? (Score:4 Normal)
GunnersApe
GunnersApe's picture
Joined: 11/19/2009
MGoPoints: 4101

 ...Roll Tide.

Fuck it, Dude, let's go bowling.

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:54 PM | Can somebody put this in the (Score:1)
tjyoung
Joined: 08/23/2009
MGoPoints: 189

Can somebody put this in the "roll tide" ESPN commercial?

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June 6th, 2011 at 4:15 PM | The Irony (Score:2)
redhousewolverine
Joined: 08/17/2010
MGoPoints: 820

The best part is the "Alabama: People of Compassion" sign in the background. (Not that I believe Alabama people are not compassionate, but Saban...lol).

"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates.

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:28 PM | I know I'll get slammed for (Score:0 Normal)
artds
artds's picture
Joined: 09/04/2009
MGoPoints: 2789

I know I'll get slammed for this since any defense of the SEC around here is unwelcome, but what exactly is the problem with allowing kids the opportunity to compete for a scholarship spot at a top athletic program by oversigning?

The worst case scenario is they get beaten out for the spot and have to finance their education with student loans like the rest of us did, while still getting to be a part of the team.  Or, if playing time and free education is important to them, they can transfer to a smaller program and feel good that they at least got their chance to compete with the big dogs.

This feels like nothing more than an extension of the entitlement mentality that is running rampant throughout society.

Every time an MGoBoard poster complains about a thread topic, God kills a baby panda.

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:35 PM | seems oversigning's another (Score:1)
entirely reasonable
entirely reasonable's picture
Joined: 07/24/2008
MGoPoints: 2513

seems oversigning's another way of saying breach of contract.

"Play hard and with great effort"

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:41 PM | Huh? You miss two huge (Score:3 Normal)
gbdub
gbdub's picture
Joined: 02/16/2010
MGoPoints: 2468

Huh? You miss two huge problems with oversigning/cuts:

1) If the payer is "beat out" and wants to transfer, he has to sit out a year - punishing the student athlete by forcing him to uproot and unfairly and limiting his transfer options (big schools less likely to take a guy that needs to sit a year)

2) Oversigning allows schools to hoard talent

Oversigning is good for the institution and bad for the SA - which defeats the purpose of the whole NCAA thing. Which fine if you think that's stupid, but recognize that you're advocating for increased professionalization of college sports.

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:47 PM | The problem is (Score:1)
oHOWiHATEohioSTATE
Joined: 11/22/2010
MGoPoints: 1371

The problem is accountability. These college coaches make promises of playing time and woo kids into signing at their school. Over signing is like signing a contract that you have no expectation of keeping unless your on the upper end of the deal. Besides, if a kid wants to transfer he HAS to sit out a year.

If an OSU fan divorces his wife are they still brother and sister?

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June 6th, 2011 at 3:10 PM | Like the Man always says.... (Score:0 Flamebait)
Njia
Njia's picture
Joined: 09/15/2009
MGoPoints: 6038

Read the fine print. Chances are, there is a bit of legalese in the LOI that says, "Unless what I promised you is written in this document, everything I promised you is hereby null and void."

"If life is the road, then Ohio is simply a place to stop for gas." -- Scott Burgess, Detroit News, 9/16/2010
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June 6th, 2011 at 2:05 PM | Consider you are (Score:4 Normal)
turtleboy
turtleboy's picture
Joined: 04/22/2011
MGoPoints: 3207

a Saban target at Alabama. You have multiple offers but you shirk them all because Saban has filled your head with delusions of granduer and you get your scholarship, move to Tuscaloosa, enroll in classes, and start practicing with the football team. Unfortunately for you coach Saban didn't tell you that he brought in 5 other kids at your position after you committed, there are several already on the roster, you never have any chance of playing for the team, and your scholarship is dropped halfway through your first year and you have to look for another program that is willing to take on a kid who was "cut," and instead of your original second choice college you have to go to Troy or Eastern Michigan or walk on at your second choice where they took another kid to replace you after you committed to 'bama and hope to earn a scholarship there after a few years of footing the mega bill for your college education yourself. Saban welcomes kids in on scholarships that weren't really there to begin with and sets kids back for years stealing better opportunities from them at a school that actually might want them.

How many times have you been on the freeway and had someone fly by you at 100 mph then end up 2 cars ahead of you at the off ramp? What's the point? -Mark Harmon

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June 6th, 2011 at 3:07 PM | This right here.  If you're (Score:2 Normal)
ryebreadboy
ryebreadboy's picture
Joined: 12/02/2010
MGoPoints: 1786

This right here.  If you're deciding between Alabama and Florida and Michigan, and you pick Alabama and get "cut" by Saban due to oversigning, you can't just turn around and go to Michigan and grab that scholarship they were originally going to give you.  I sure as hell wouldn't stay at Bama and pay my way when I was supposed to be on scholarship.  That means I have to transfer and try to pick up a scholarship football position.  The only schools that are going to have the room are going to be lower-tier schools - or, if I want to play immediately, FCS schools.  So it's not just that Saban is saying "oh here's a scholarship, wait, not really".  It's that if I'd known originally I would've gone somewhere else to be on scholarship and showcase my talents on a big stage.  So now I'm stuck at a crap football school with (probably) far less impressive academics, when I could've had a free ride at Michigan or Florida.

Denard has spent the offseason working really hard and smiling at people.

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June 6th, 2011 at 2:34 PM | upvoted (Score:3 Normal)
TrppWlbrnID
TrppWlbrnID's picture
Joined: 10/29/2009
MGoPoints: 7875

to keep the discussion alive. this is good devil's advocate talk.

2013 resolution - make it onto the 2014 favorite MGoPosters post, not ironically
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June 6th, 2011 at 1:38 PM | http://www.aolnews.com/2008/0 (Score:1)
Corey
Corey's picture
Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 1316

http://www.aolnews.com/2008/02/13/nick-sabans-the-real-snake-oil-salesman-around-these-parts/

For those interested in seeing Brian's original bomb.  I think this is the first one, anyway.

"Are you coming to bed?"
"I can't."
"Why not?"
"Someone is WRONG on the internet."
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June 6th, 2011 at 1:55 PM | That's some fine work there, (Score:1)
tjyoung
Joined: 08/23/2009
MGoPoints: 189

That's some fine work there, inspector.

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:41 PM | Hey, speaking of bad statues, (Score:2 Funny)
oHOWiHATEohioSTATE
Joined: 11/22/2010
MGoPoints: 1371

Hey, speaking of bad statues, MSU has a statue that looks like Bill Rustle in front of Breslin.

If an OSU fan divorces his wife are they still brother and sister?

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:43 PM | Big Fat Joke (Score:0 Normal)
San Diego Mick
Joined: 05/11/2011
MGoPoints: 1556

Hey SEC Coaches, don't have a cow because you "might" have to play on an even playing, god forbid. I bet they all over practice their players and no one hears about it.

 

P.S. In that pic from Gunnarsape, I always knew Saban was a dick head!

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June 6th, 2011 at 1:53 PM | I like the 22-25 LOI, no (Score:2)
gbdub
gbdub's picture
Joined: 02/16/2010
MGoPoints: 2468

I like the 22-25 LOI, no scholie cap option (I've proposed something similar in past threads) but with the following modifications:

1) Leave the 4 seasons in 5 years eligibility system in place. All scholarships are good for 5 years or to the exhaustion of eligibility, whichever comes first (this handily takes care of JUCO transfers)

2) Below a scholarship number (75-85) unlimited walk-ons can be added on a year-by-year basis. Above this limit, walk-ons can be signed, but they count as one of your signees for the year and are a "permanent" scholarship. To avoid abuse of the walk-on system (Saban keeping below the cap and signing a bunch of "walk-ons" who are really new recruits), a walk-on will be defined as a player at least one year removed from high-school who has never received a scholarship at another institution.

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June 6th, 2011 at 2:25 PM | The root of the oversigning evil... (Score:1)
Julius 1977
Joined: 05/21/2011
MGoPoints: 16

The root of the oversigning evil is the fact that the scholarships are one year deals. 

You can hash out the details, but once you make the scholarships four (or better yet five) year agreements you solve the basic issue.

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June 6th, 2011 at 2:27 PM | How about an open market ? (Score:1)
Mat
Mat's picture
Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 1505

Instead of offering either semi-renewable 1-year (as existing) or full 5-year (as propsed) packages , why don't schools simply offer players X years of guaranteed grant/aid, at their discretion (minimum 1, maximum 5), depending on the individual?  All students would be offered a package based on their overall marketability and perceived value at the time of enrollment.

Recruits will be responsible for making the right decision for their personal situation.  In practice, all elite high school prospects will get/earn full 5 year offers from everyone, while more marginal recruits will get partial year offers from elite programs and full offers from lower profile programs.  (e.g.,Michigan may offer 1 year to a marginal prospect while Purdue offers 2 years, Toledo offers 3, and EMU offers 4.) JUCOs, transfers, and walk-ons will get scholarship-year offers of a duration that matches their situation.  This makes things far more clear and you don't have to worry about class-sizes and exemptions and all that. 

No more 'accounting' tricks or eligibility schenanigans that currently go on.  Everything is a mutually-agreed upon contract in advance.  In this case, the onus is on programs/coaches to make a judgement on how much to 'offer' a recruit.  The recruit then weighs his offers not just on quality of program/school, but on duration and level of commitment.

The NCAA counts all promised scholarship-years from the past 5 years and just makes sure that the number of scholarship offers in a give year is 85 .  Exceptions would only be for voluntary termination by the player. (e.g., Cissoko would still count against Michigan's limit, but early entries and transfers out would not). [No exceptions for medical red-shirts -- these guys just get covered and tough luck for the football programs.]

The biggest advantage to this approach (over the universal 5-year offer approach) is that poor kids will still get a shot. As Saban pointed out, marginal students and character questionmarks will be far less attractive as recruits if there is a binding 5-year commitment with no 'out' for the school making the offer.  That's a great amount of risk to take on and programs will avoid that risk.  Alabama offering only 1-year of scholarship (while say Southern Miss offers them 4) would be a fair way to give poor kids a shot without penalizing the school.   Otherwise, the 5 year commitment proposal takes away from the societal uplift that this blog has celebrated in the case of Pahokee-type recruits who otherwise wouldn't get the chance. That kid just has to weigh his offers like anyone else.

Otherwise, in a world where 5-year commitments are binding, walk-ons will be marginalized and transfers made extremely difficult for student-athletes (giving coaches more power over them).

What happens after an Alabama recruit's 1-year (or 2-year) offer of aid expires?  He's a free agent and can transfer (without sitting out) to the highest bidder. Same goes for walk-ons who prove their worth.  If Alabama didn't offer enough years - thats on them.   Risk goes both ways.

 

 

 

 

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June 6th, 2011 at 3:06 PM | The trouble is that (Score:2)
gbdub
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The trouble is that transferring is rough on a college student, academically speaking. You're really just treating college like pro ball at that point with variable year contracts, which fine if that's your goal, but be up front about that.

Walk ons already are marginalized and transfers could be eased by forcing schools to grant transfer requests in almost all circumstances.

 Your system gives no incentive for a school to give multi-year deals. Why would you ever offer a 5 year deal when a bunch of kids will be jumping at even 1 year deals (which is effectively what they do now). You'll still have Saban saying "well, I give everyone 1 year deals to be fair - but I'm sure you will earn a scholarship again next year".

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June 6th, 2011 at 3:28 PM | Being up front (Score:1)
Mat
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I think that's the key.  Right now, the offer guarantee for kids is capped at 1 year.  It seems like it would be a substantial benefit to athletes if they could be offered more (years).

The incentive to offer 5 year is that you are more likely to sign that recruit.  If South Carolina is offering 5 years and Alabama is offering 1, you've made South Carolina far more attractive.  Alabama would have to offer 5 years to remain competitive for elite recruits.

I don't think my proposal would make transfers any more likely than before.  But if that's a concern, you could just retain the 1 year sit-out provision...

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June 6th, 2011 at 4:00 PM | I think you'll hurt the "at (Score:2)
gbdub
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I think you'll hurt the "at risk" kids with your proposal more than the 4/5 year guaranteed scholarship though. Right now, other than in the SEC, the majority of athletes stay and get scholarships for 4 years barring actual injury, academic failure, voluntary transfer, or discipline issues.

With your proposal, academically at-risk athletes might take a one year gig at Alabama instead of going to JUCO, which is where they probably should have gone. Then if they struggle academically, they are stuck with no scholarship, a flunked-out year, and a rough time transferring.

Realistically, marginal cases should be taking the JUCO route if we're serious about actually educating them (rather than letting them coast through joke classes at Alabama). So if the system encourages that, it's probably a feature rather than a bug.

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June 6th, 2011 at 5:17 PM | Agreed (Score:1)
Mat
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MGoPoints: 1505

My suggestion is compromise between the 1 year offers (which make taking a questionable kid a very low-risk proposition) and 5-year offers (which would make them enormous no-no's).  Your scenario with the Alabama/JUCO kid is just current reality.  My suggestion is that kids should be allowed to be offered some security - not all of them will be.

Someone like Adrian Witty might get a 4-year offer to UCF and a 1-year offer to Michigan, but the decision about what's the better choice and fit would be up to him.  He'd still 'get a shot' at the big time program, but also have a 4-year option available to him. He has to decide what the better fit is.

I think I should have framed my point as simply 'schools should be allowed to offer 4-year commitments, if they want.'

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June 6th, 2011 at 3:08 PM | How would someone be the (Score:2)
imafreak1
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Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 1366

How would someone be the 'highest bidder' in the free agency of student athletes?

Why wouldn't elite prospects sign on to 1 year 'contracts' and then enjoy the full rewards of this bidding each year?

I don't see how this suggestion would improve the situation. It would just codify oversigning and throwing away the losers. But not just that, it would create a player free agency, which has nothing to do with academics.

Give it to Wheatley!

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June 6th, 2011 at 3:36 PM | cuz... (Score:1)
Mat
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If you're a 5-star prospect and you volunatrily choose to sign only a 1 year commitment - you'd be taking on a serious risk for no reason.  You could be on the streets in a year if you fail to contribute or show potential.  Only a fool would turn down 5 year offers for a one year offer with no gains on your end.

But, I think you're right in that the 1 year transfer 'penalty' should be retained to discourage too much movement.

I think you're missing the point in regard to over-signing. Schools would be commiting to 5 year offers for most prospects, so oversigning would become extremely difficult unless you ran your program on short-term offers exclusively - which would put you at a severe recruiting disadvantage.

 

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June 6th, 2011 at 2:38 PM | what happens if (Score:2 Normal)
TrppWlbrnID
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Joined: 10/29/2009
MGoPoints: 7875

in 5 or 6 years after this has been in place, the SEC is still destroying the rest of college football? i always feel like the oversigning thing is sort of a rationalization for their dominance, that and the cheating, but if we take that out and consider the cheating to be rampant across all of football, then is it the coaches, the local athlete talent, the facilities, the weather?

2013 resolution - make it onto the 2014 favorite MGoPosters post, not ironically
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June 6th, 2011 at 2:39 PM | We'll rationalize that bridge (Score:5 Normal)
OysterMonkey
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Joined: 08/22/2009
MGoPoints: 2738

We'll rationalize that bridge when we get to it.

This has nothing to do with Michigan football.

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June 6th, 2011 at 2:45 PM | Tribe (Score:1)
MAgoBLUE
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Joined: 05/21/2010
MGoPoints: 2159

"The wackest crews try to dis, it makes me laugh
When my track record's longer than a DC-20 aircraft
So next time that you think you want somethin' here
Make somethin' differ, take that garbage to St. Elsewhere"

 

 

"fumbles the snap, takes off. . ."

(9/5/09)

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