Bo was the definition of an "outsider"
i refuse to even consider this a possibility
Bo was the definition of an "outsider"
Read the rest of that sentence, "an outsider who didn't understand that Michigan is a school and a program different from all of the others might backfire on us." Everything you'll ever read about Bo suggests that he knew exactly what he was getting himself into at Michigan and the type of tradition and history that we had.
You're suggesting that Rodriguez didn't know what he was getting into. He's not an idiot, as much as people like to paint him with that brush.
No, i'm not suggesting anything about RR. I like RR. My comment was only referring to Bo.
There's no question that Bo was quite familiar with Michigan going in, since he coached against Michigan at NW and OSU. RR had no such experience in his resume, and it's apparent that he knew relatively little about Michigan prior to taking the job. That's not something he can ever change; should it be held against him in perpetuity? Is it a permanent black mark?
I'm not saying that it's impossible for RR to somehow sully the good name and reputation of Michigan; he's only been here a short while, so our experience with him isn't very long yet. I'm of the opinion that if he gets fired before his first contract ends that it as likely be for off-the-field transgressions as wins and losses. Recruiting violations, academic chicanery, etc. will guarantee his dismissal by Martin and the UM administration. As of right now, I'm not aware of any allegations of any wrongdoing, however slight. Have I missed something?
As far as the various allegations of personal moral turpitude that have been leveled against RR, those have accompanied Miles as well, regardless of the substance or lack thereof. We'd be talking about the same stuff. We all know how Mo's tenure ended.
One other change that RR has brought about is the program's dealings with the media. We're all familiar with the Fort Schembechler mentality when dealing with the press, and Carr's frequently churlish behavior was only a continuation of Bo's famously prickly relationship with the media. To put it bluntly, for much of Bo's career here he was a big-time jerk with the media. Many sportswriters hated covering him, and in 1979 or 1980 Bo even got into a physical altercation with a Michigan Daily sportswriter. I'm no particular fan of sports media people myself, but if anyone thinks Bo was sweetness and light to deal with back then they're fooling themselves. He could be a real ass. He just mellowed so much in the later years as coach, and then as the grandfatherly retired coach that people forget what he was like in his early days.
By all accounts, RR has completely changed this relationship, to the point where some are even criticizing him for being so open and congenial with the media. Personally, I always thought that Bo's and Lloyd's relationship with the press was unnecessarily antagonistic, and frequently did not reflect well on Michigan the institution. Which one is the better "Michigan" tradition?
In terms of things RR's done since he's been HC here, I'm curious about what it is specifically that he's done that gives so many people the willies, other than this vague, free-floating sense that "he's really not one of us."
If RR wins the number of games that fans want, stays here 10-15 years, and keeps the program's nose clean to boot, he'll be a "Michigan Man."
IMO, once RR starts winning all of this talk will go away. Let's just pray this is a good season and this is all behind. Once RR is winning he'll be a 'Michigan Man'.
And I agree with the conclusion. This has been a culture change for the media, as well as for all of us. The verdict on any culture change (apart from yahoos) is always written after the fact, with results, both on and off the field. If the program stays clean and on field results are excellent, the issues people have now will disappear. If not, the the questions will remain, and have more validity than they do now.
As far as your question about the "willies," some people have read the transcripts of the lawsuit from his leaving WVA, and I think the questions come from that, his departure, and calling Pryor before telling his players he was leaving. If you read it, that behavior was open to question--I'm not saying there was anything definitive or that I object to it, but it's debatable.
That being said, how do you guys think that RR is handling balancing running the program his way with the traditions of UofM?
I'm not sure how this is a balancing act.
Michigan not just SCHOOL but also DESTINATION. RichRod is an OUTSIDER and also HILLBILLY. Bo was not just GOOD COACH but also GOD. RichRod not only NOT BO but also NOT LLOYD. I am not only SCARED of change but also TERRIFIED of it. No sugarcoat.
Who has M fired? Moeller resigned, right?
You might be kidding -- but he was forced to resign. By the way, that picture of yours makes me nauseous.
Whether RR is remembered as a Michigan Man will depend on whether he wins or not.
Just because I'm a Buckeye, I hope you won't take this as sarcastic or negative. Seriously, I've been saying for quite some time now...there IS a thing known as a Michigan Man. And, much as we don't care for the Wolverines, it is a very good thing, to be embraced in a tradition of excellence and character. Bo, Lloyd, definite Michigan Men. RR, however, I don't feel fits the mold of what a Michigan Man should be. I feel that he has character flaws that make him a square peg in a round hole in Ann Arbor. Winning cures a lot of ills - but I just think he was a bad hire ... someone you folks will have a hard times TRULY embracing. Frankly, you're better'n that.
as to these so-called "character flaws." What exactly do you mean by that?
He left West Virginia.... and didn't want to pay them $4 million.... and.... and.... Packman....
do i think sweater vest is a creep because he was coaching when clarett was there? no. and i'm not sure but was pacman a douche when he was @ wvu? i think most of his probs came when he was in the nfl?
But since you brought him up, the vest left Youngstown State under a cloud, and YSU would have had to forfeit their 1991 championship if the violations had been discovered before the four-year NCAA statute of limitations. The Clarett thing was a replay of the YSU issues, and so they are not isolated incidents.
Ask any high school football coach in Michigan. If you do, you won't have to ask me.
You have no idea.
HS FB coaches so could you share this inside info with me pretty pretty please?
Perhaps you should tell us, as you're the one attempting to smear RR.
Right. And by cruising the internet, you somehow know that Michigan high school coaches believe RR has character flaws. Tell you what, you ask some coaches what they think, and get back to us with what you find.
When you answer obliquely, it makes it obvious that you actually have no clue.
paints RR as the devil. They blew up the West Virginia allegations and never mentioned the responses or reasons behind what happened. Even my level headed buckeye friends are ignorant to most of what happened and assume Rodriguez is Sabanesque. I also think there are quite a few that are afraid and are trying to stir things up to make us have a short fuse to fire him.
that RR doesn't read Aristotle and Socrates to his team on the 1st day of fall practice, like LLllllllllloyd used to.
All RR needs to do to become a "Michigan Man" is win. And Beat Ohio State. If he does neither, he'll never be a Michigan Man.
He has embraced the traditions, he has an open door policy for ex-players. Sure he has tweeked some things, but that's every coaches right.
If people start using "Michigan Man" like the phrase "True Yankee", I'm going to go on a killing spree.
Derek Jeter is a "True Yankee" fyi
A leader. A guy who’s full of intangible qualities that help him triumph – with class. Derek Jeter. A guy who has a certain look in his eye, like he knows what it means to don the pinstripes with some motherfletching pride. Bernie. Mantle. Joe D. Jeter. A guy who you want in the trenches with you. Mattingly. Joe Girardi. Derek. Jim Leyritz. Posada. Derek Jeter. A guy who stares adversity in the face and says, “I play for the Yankees, and that means something, and I am going to hit a HR off BK Kim in this World Series Game because I am a New York Yankee." Scott Brosius. Tino. Dave Justice. Derek Jeter. A winner. Derek Jeter.
Here are some people who are not True Yankees: Alex Rodriguez, Mike Mussina, Jason Giambi, Alfonso Soriano, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, and every other New York Yankee who has never been on a Yankees’ World Series winning team.
If you ever – ever – hear someone use the phrase “True Yankee,” for any reason, I want you to find the nearest exit, form an orderly line, and leave the premises quickly and calmly. Seek shelter. Cover head. Report the incident to your nearest FJM representative immediately. You are in great danger, because the person you are talking to is an idiot."
True Yankee: a guy who gets away with infecting Jessica Alba with herpes. Derek Jeter.
also, the mick, whitey ford and Joe Dimagio.
Questions Ive been meaning to ask you Yankee fans on this site: what are your feelings on Nick Swisher? Could he be a "TRUE YANKEE," or is he just a welcome visitor? To what extent can you bring yourself to root for him?
I like him. I think hes good for the team, the clubhouse, and the fans. However, I don't think I could bring myself to buy a Swisher jersey. His likability has some Ohio State caused limit for me, and I am reluctant to go be all out pro-Swisher.
did RR bang a lot of wives of HS football coaches in MI?
Les Miles banged the wife of a HS football coach who's son played for Lloyd Carr?
he also took in Lloyd Carr's first wife while they were divorcing.
. . . but he's wrong. I'm assuming the "character flaws" refer to the messy divorce from W.Va. I think both sides handled that one poorly, not just Rodriguez.
Sometimes it's good to hire an "outsider." Other times, it's the right thing to hire the insider/heir apparent. When Bo retired, hiring Moeller was the right move. And when Moeller was forced to quit after the public intoxication episode, it was the right move to bring Lloyd up.
But when Lloyd retired, there wasn't an insider Martin felt comfortable promoting to HC, and I think his instincts were correct. It's way too soon to know how RichRod will work out. Personally, I'm looking foward to this season, even if it probably will be 6-6 or 7-5. You have to give a college coach 4 years before you can judge him, IMO.
Bo was an outsider. A Woody-trained, OSU/Miami(not that Miami)-bred coach. At that time, it was the right move to bring in an outsider.
This is one of those times, too.
also, Bernie Williams.
is mel hall a true yankee? he just got 45 years for rape lol
you don't define what being a "Michigan Man" is. What you mean by the term?
And if you say that a "Michigan Man" is someone who maintains our traditions, what are those traditions?
When you say that Michigan is a "school and a program different from all of the others," what do you mean, specifically? The number of victories? Size of the stadium? Just curious...
Was Fielding Yost a "Michigan Man" when he first came to Michigan? He had no prior connection to Michigan, and he job-hopped like mad before he came here.
Fritz Crisler had no prior connection to Michigan, and even coached for one of our biggest rivals before he came to Ann Arbor. The same with Bo. What made them "Michigan Men?" right off the bat?
What is it that RR is doing or not doing in his first 18 months on the job that makes people so nervous, in comparison to these earlier coaches?
• He has instituted the post-game practice of having the team sing the Victors after a victory to the student section. That wasn't something that Bo, Mo, or Lloyd had the team do.
• He has enthusiastically continued the yearly tradition started by Bo and maintained by Carr of being involved with Mott Children's Hospital, both in terms of regular visits by players and the yearly fund-raising program.
• He has, by many accounts from alumni players, notably increased the outreach to former players both in terms of offseason involvement to game day visiting on the sidelines. Some former players have stated publicly that they did not feel welcome in Ann Arbor under the former coaching regime. That seems to be rapidly disappearing.
• Prior to coming to Michigan, Bo was an assistant at Presbyterian, Bowling Green, OSU, Northwestern, and again at OSU, then was HC at Miami. RR was assistant at WVU, assistant and HC at Salem, HC at Glenville State, then assistant at Tulane, Clemson, then HC at WVU. That's six stops for each prior to coming to Michigan.
Perfect post. I think that answers all the questions. RR is doing a good job and is well on his way to becoming a "Michigan Man". All he needs to do now is win, win, and win some more.
I just wanted to throw the question out there. I guess I define a Michigan man as someone who thinks that the program is more important than they are. Sort of a mafia thing, I guess, 'never take sides against the family again, frodo.' The term came from Bo when Frieder decided that there was a better program out there for him and Bo showed him the door. I want a guy here that honestly wants to be associated with U of M until he coaches his last game and then wants an office next to Lloyd's. And actually, I think RR has been doing suprisingly well mixing in his traditions and the programs traditions, incorporating alumni and ex players, and I think the winning will come. I also don't read too much into the troubled players thing, because I remember Lloyd sticking with Mo Williams and even Brian Griese got into a bar fight at Scorekeepers. He is slowly winning me over.
There is no evidence to suggest that RichRod doesn't fit your definition of a Michigan Man. So if he fits your definition of a Michigan Man, then what's the point of stirring this crap up?
On other parts of the internet, this post could be construed as "concern trolling." Please stop.
(And Frodo was a character in The Lord of the Rings. Fredo was the traitor in The Godfather.)
IMO Frodo Corleone would have become Don over Michael. If Fredo had carried the ring, it would have gone to Saramon early on and all would have been lost.
Also the quote he is using comes from an interaction Between Vito and his oldest son Sonny after a visit with Solozzo "the Turk" who was trying to convince the Corleones to sell drugs.
It's Saruman, not Saramon...yeah, I know.
with the condescension. Guy has the option to pose a critical question, EVEN ON THE INTERNET! there, I said it
Nice post. Is there a published definition of "Michigan Man" somewhere in the annals of the football program? (That's not rhetorical, I really don't know)
that hit that homerun against the sox in like 2003...
FTR, Curt Schilling: not a true yankee
Michigan Man may have meant something positive once but it has since become a code word to imply all sorts of things the user does not want to say outright.
I embrace RR. I see many things that I like about what he has done at Michigan. I see an emphasis on hard work and discipline. I see players earning their positions and not being granted them through seniority. I also like RR's modernization of Michigan football's approach to the media and the public.
I invite those that have criticisms of RR to state them clearly and specifically. I suggest they cease to use code words like MICHIGAN MAN, or FAMILY VALUES, or fall back on things like ASK SOMEONE ELSE BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS. These approaches are cowardly and dishonest.
Depending on the responses, dex might be spending a lot more time on this site.
And I happen to live next to a high-school football coach. After reading the veiled nonsense (ask any Michigan HS football coach) I did indeed ask him.
He knows not of what you speak. And this guy is not a particular fan of the spread offense and is skeptical that RR's offense will work in the Big Ten. But he knows nothing about widespread dislike, or whatever, of Rodriguez among HS coaches.
Maybe he's not as plugged in as you apparently are (
the sarcasm in my post was directed at the Bucknut, not freak.
Just to be clear (and to get myself another mgopoint!! woo!)
This reponse should automatically appear in a pop-up whenever someone types "Michigan Man" in post. Bravo, sir.
I hate to look like I am defending Saban, but it is my understanding that he saw MSU as a career job until the administration started meddling with his program. Apparently, he grew increasingly angry with the interference until he couldn't take it anymore and quit.
MSU seemed, at the time, to be at the forefront of a growing movement in the NCAA for academic administration personnel to become much more involved in running the sports programs.
I'm really glad Saban left; he was doing a great job in EL. If he had stayed, I'm not so sure MSU wouldn't actually be the best program in the state instead of just talking about it like they are now.
Thankfully, UM is still the better of the two programs, despite the excessive "mileage" MSU fans have gotten out of 2008.
One who doesn't have the numbers for the HoF. e.g., Alan Trammel.
MSU can trace much of its problems to Saban bailing on them and establishing them as a little brother program.
Establishing? MSU has been a little brother program for 40 years. The only time MSU was a national power was in the '50s and '60s, when it aggressively recruited black Southern players who were frozen out of their local programs by segregation. When the South integrated, this talent pipeline dried up and MSU has been mediocre ever since, save for the occasional fluke season.
little bro has been little bro since 1855
Maybe so, but Saban leaving definately set that program back. Michigan's run of consecutive bowl games had more than a little to do with the continuity of long tenured coaches.
that the majority of Michigan fans have no clue what "Michigan Man" even means. Perhaps reading "Bo's Lasting Lessons" will help?
And to that OSU fan randomly throwing shit against the wall to see if it sticks? Character flaws? That you have very little evidence for? WHAT!! HE LEFT HIS JOB!!! WHAT AN ASSHOLE!!!! Hey, I can do that too. Jim Tressel IS a true OSU man because he lacks character. I mean, corvettes and such...
Ding ding ding.
"Michigan Man" is a bankrupt expression with no actual definition. I'd wager that most of the people that bandy it about as if it had meaning would be surprised to learn that any number of people they would deem "Michigan Men" likely didn't meet the criteria.
First time I ever heard the phrase, Michigan Man, was from Bo when the basketball thang got all stupid and Fisher got the job. Bo just basically pulled it out of his ass spontansously. Every idiot and their brother jumped on it after that.
potato salad motherfuckers.
Here are some thoughts re posts above:
RR had no such experience in his resume, and it's apparent that he knew relatively little about Michigan prior to taking the job.
RR had more connection to the program through Don Nehlan that Kirk Ferentz and certainly more than Schiano, who were rumored to be picks ahead of RR. This is a non-issue and apart from an early learning curve, RR has embraced M's history and has generally been a great ambassador with fans under 45 and team alums, most of whom he has won over. That Les Miles is not coach cannot be held against RR.
I just wanted to throw the question out there. I guess I define a Michigan man as someone who thinks that the program is more important than they are. Sort of a mafia thing, I guess, 'never take sides against the family again, frodo.'
Ahh, Bilbo Baggins' famous quote from Lord of Rings, correct?
First time I ever heard the phrase, Michigan Man, was from Bo when the basketball thang got all stupid and Fisher got the job. Bo just basically pulled it out of his ass spontansously.
Ding, Ding, Ding - this phrase originated when Bill Fireder took the ASU job RIGHT BEFORE the NCAA tourney in 1989. At the time it was something that described a negative i.e. you are not staying at Michigan when you have committed to be elsewhere next year. It has now exploded on the message boards as some lofty ideal of M-dom, unattainable purity, that only Bo, Lloyd and Mike Hart can aspire to. I think it is fine to develop the mythology of the Michigan Man and the type of people we like to see coaching and on the team, but there is no historical standard other than someone who agrees to take another job before the season is out.
I just wanted to throw the question out there. I guess I define a Michigan man as someone who thinks that the program is more important than they are. Sort of a mafia thing, I guess, 'never take sides against the family again, frodo.'
Did Bilbo say that before he had samwise shoot frodo in the back of the head with an arrow while in the canoe on the River Anduin?
Remember when the Orcs killed Lee Strasburg in the airport? That was awesome.
Nice! Although I think it's Strasberg (not trying to be a Spelling/Grammar Nazi, just a UM Film Studies grad).
But I am a semantics douche:
I think it is fine to develop the mythology of the Michigan Man and the type of people we like to see coaching and on the team, but there is no historical standard other than someone who agrees to take another job before the season is out.
The Michigan Man is the one who would not take the other job. He would stay at Michigan, despite a more lucrative or poon-filled opportunity elsewhere. So MDad's definition is generally accurate... someone who puts Michigan before self, who sees that Michigan is greater than their own ambition. Even Nero would be humbled by our might
that goes to 5-10 coaches clinics a year and actually prefer RR to LC in that sense. Alot more personable and you always get it how it is, not like the old Michigan fort that you could never get the full story out of.
in comparison to top academics at Michigan, and any other university. I've got two degrees from the place, many of my clients from the past 15+ years have been UM clients, and my wife has worked internally at UM for about 25 years. In all that time, by far most of the academics or staff that my wife and I have worked for or studied under have been great people. However, both of us have also encountered a few high-achieving and highly-regarded UM professors and staff who are completely loathesome and thoroughly contemptible assclowns. They're in every school and department. Medicine, law, business, LSA, doesn't matter—it's just a fact of life. But that doesn't prevent the University from touting the virtues of these people in its marketing communications or advertising; Their character flaws are not openly debated in print and online media, at least to the extent that a head coach's flaws are.
It's extremely common for top-level academics to move from one institution to another, and nobody thinks ill of them for doing so, unless there's something particular about their situation. It's generally accepted that MSC won't be UM President for much longer, and what she'll do when she steps down is anybody's guess. It would not be surprising in the least if she took a position with some other institution, because that happens all the time. And nobody is criticizing her right now because this might happen. It's simply part of the deal in the academic world.
When it comes to coaches, it's completely different. Fans have a hugely emotional investment in their teams, and any coach who doesn't declare undying and permanent fealty to the school he's at risks the wrath of alumni and non-alumni alike. One of the reasons Bo became such a legend is that he briefly considered and then turned down cold an offer from Texas A&M. If he'd taken it, his legacy at UM would be very, very different.
No, I can't say I'm any different from most fans myself, either. If RR is successful over 8 years and books for another position, I'll be very disappointed. I hope he realizes that he can join Bo and Crisler and Carr if he sticks around. I hope he wants that, too.
in college football would be a lateral move. And I can't imagine too many NFL GM's looking for a coach that runs the spread-option. I'm not worried about him going anywhere.
Anywhere else in college football would be a lateral move.
Places with more football prestige that pay their coach more:
That was the one I didn't expect. What is Pelini making? Never mind, I'll google
You must be joking. They may have better teams at the moment, but no one has more football prestige than Michigan. The day a team outscores their opponents 550-0 in one season will be the day a team has finally reached the bar we set
I expect Rich Rod to get us there in a short period of time... or at least back to point-a-minute status
Those schools may pay their coaches more, but how are you defining "football prestige"? Does LSU (which won basically nothing for 30 years prior to Saban) really more prestigious than Michigan? And if a now-mediocre Nebraska qualifies, shouldn't Notre Dame? I could see ND; Nebraska I can't.
It's funny you list all of these schools, because absolutely every one of them has suffered through at least one losing season since the last time UM did (prior to this season). And some of them suffered through some extremely lean years. Football is cyclical, but the teams at the top never lose their mystique, even when they have some down years.
Stop it with the "Michigan Man" crap! God, I hate that phrase. It's like the "Curse of Bambino" that people used to through around, or the "True American" rants that littered the 2008 elections. There is no such thing as a "Michigan Man." If you graduated from UM, you are a Michigan "alumni." If you like the school and teams, you are a Michigan "fan." Unless you were born after an illicit love affair between the UGLi and the tower on North Campus, there is no such thing as a "Michigan Man." RR is a good coach, and I think he understands the importance that UM football holds in the lives of Michigan fans and alumni, and has done a good job trying to make it better. But his actions are guided by his own moral compass and his experience as a head coach, not some disembodied notion of "leadership" and morality spawned by some nostalgic writers and fans harkening back to an earlier coach's motivational tactics. I think Bo was a a great coach, but one part of his legacy that I wished disappeared was this notion that only certain people can come and lead at UM.
"What you remember as the Michigan Spirit is still throbbingly alive. This spirit is based upon a deathless loyalty to Michigan and all her ways; an enthusiam that makes it second nature for Michigan men to spread the gospel of their university to the far corners of the earth, and a conviction that no where is there a better university than this Michigan of ours."
In The Big House, p. 359.
That's an awesome quote, but it doesn't change my opinion that the term is grossly overused. We are talking about a coach and a football team. I'll support them to the end, but I don't any more or less of a person because he/she attended/coached/played/etc. for UM.
Nope. That was 'never let anyone outside of the family know what you are thinking.' My comment was mike to fredo in vegas. I can't believe I put frodo instead of fredo, though. I have got to start proofreading these posts. You guys don't miss anything.
While I've been reading Bo's Lasting Lessons, I have at numerous points been led to believe that The Rod has, indeed, taken a few lessons out of it. In general, the way he conducts the organization as a true meritocracy and seems to be genuinely hard-assed about it reminds me of Bo's philosophy. So if that makes him a Michigan Man, wonderful.
I don't think it's necessarily anything to do with being a "Michigan Man" though -- it is plainly the best way to run a football team. I like his ambition, and I think if he stays here long enough (a few years or so) he will be brainwashed into loving this glorious place ... if it hasn't happened already
Richard Jonathan Rodriguez is becoming a MICH MAN. I think he has more than enough people helping him with the tradish (tradition) that there isn't anything to worry about, so CALM DOWN. I'm excited to see how the team does this year with more of his kids out there. Should be pretty bad ass, no? Lets stop talking about RR and his oopsy on the "#1 jersey" or his "letting Rita on the field" and support MIIIIIIICH as a whole! Woooooooooooot, woot!
What about MichMan419, does he fit the bill?
To answer the original question, given that in 2008-09 the team recorded its highest collective GPA in more than 20 years - higher than in any year under Moeller or Carr - I'd say RR is doing well.