How Much Should The D Improve? Not Enough Comment Count

Brian

Let's take some small sample sizes and extrapolate wildly. It will be fun. Here's Bill Connolly breaking down expected improvement from teams that return varying numbers of defensive starters:

So Cincinnati returns 11 defensive starters. That's probably a good thing, right? But how good? And how much can a bad defense improve in one offseason just because of experience? Let's take a look, shall we?

Average Change In Def. F/+, Last Three Years
Starters
Returning
N Avg Chg in
Def. F/+

1 1 -12.4%
2 4 -10.9%
3 10 -8.4%
4 32 -2.1%
5 53 -1.1%
6 69 -0.5%
7 85 1.1%
8 56 1.5%
9 37 4.2%
10 9 6.0%
11 3 5.4%

So basically, if you return between five and eight starters, you are likely not going to change much, but three or fewer is a problem, and nine or more is a good thing.

F/+ is Connolly's advanced metric; it's play-based instead of drive-based like FEI. Don't be fooled by the % symbol—the metric is percentage based and from context it's clear the difference is meant to be added to the score, not multiplied. Since the best defenses are around +17% and the worst around –13%, 6% is about a fifth of the entire scale.

Michigan is, unsurprisingly, right at the bottom of that scale at 115th. They were 12% worse than an average defense down-to-down. The good news is they return 9-ish starters, losing Greg Banks, James Rogers and Jonas Mouton while reacquiring Troy Woolfolk. (They also lose Ray Vinopal and Obi Ezeh, but Ezeh had been replaced and Michigan should get JT Floyd back so let's call it a wash.)

The numbers are thin at both ends of the spectrum but, hey, extrapolating wildly from small sample sizes. Doing so says Michigan's defense will storm forward from 115th nationally to…

99th.

sad_butters_by_darklord2017-d32y758

I have no source for this, unfortunately.

But wait! Our sample sizes are not small enough and our extrapolation is not making out with other nubile young extrapolations in front of a television camera. Bill added a second factor, the previous year's defense, and finds that a defense with an F/+ under –10% that returns nine starters should expect (for a given confidence level that is not high at all) to improve by 8.6%, which would see them get to…

82nd.

butters-bad

You might be able to argue that Mike Martin wasn't right and the team was even younger than the average team that returns nine starters and GERG is rubbing stuffed animals on the faces of other stuffed animals at a tearful tea party and for the first time in a long time they'll just run one damn defense per year and that they should expect to improve even more. You're probably setting yourself up for disappointment. Like installing the spread 'n' shred, digging out of a hole this big is a multi-year project.

Comments

Blue since birth

July 12th, 2011 at 1:05 PM ^

Hmmm...

IIRC Brian said the defense should improve by "quite a lot" in the MSP Wolverine Kickoff roundtable. In context (without going into alot of detail) I don't believe that going to 99th (or even 82nd) would qualify as "quite a lot". 

 

Profwoot

July 12th, 2011 at 1:06 PM ^

I have to disagree with Brian on this one. Between the returning starters, the lack of experience last year, the favorable schedule, and the new and improved DC, I expect big things. Here's why:

I'm a BYU fan in my spare time, and last year's defense sucked the first half of the season under DC Jaime Hill. Hill was canned half way through the season and the HC took over as DC. The defense the second half of the season was drastically improved. After losing 4 out of the first 5, BYU won 6 of the last 7. The defensive scoring and yardage numbers also saw incredible improvement.

So if such drastic improvement can happen just by changing DCs in the middle of a season, The addition of an outstanding DC with time to implement a new defense in addition to the other factors has the potential to result in a pretty good D. I expect our D to end up in the 50-60 range at a minimum.

jlcoleman71

July 12th, 2011 at 1:07 PM ^

I'm thinking that the average opponent that Michigan will face this is will not be as good as the average opponent from last season, which I expect to help with their eventual ranking on D.

Plus, an expected improvement in the kicking game will have a positive impact on the D's performance also.

dutchmen

July 12th, 2011 at 1:11 PM ^

i think they will be 8th in the big ten for defense. they should improve sense they r going back to a defense that works in the big ten not that 3-3-5 crap rich rod used. and having another down line man should help outmike martin a ton. he can no longer get triple team by the two gaurds and the center.

dutchmen

July 12th, 2011 at 1:11 PM ^

i think they will be 8th in the big ten for defense. they should improve sense they r going back to a defense that works in the big ten not that 3-3-5 crap rich rod used. and having another down line man should help outmike martin a ton. he can no longer get triple team by the two gaurds and the center.

somewittyname

July 12th, 2011 at 1:12 PM ^

in returning a bunch of upper classmen who are already closer to their potential vs. a bunch of true/redshirt freshmen. I bet if you factor that in, we would get another bump from 8.6%. Plus, as everyone has mentioned, another bump from bad Greg to good Greg. At the least I would say, if you set your expectations to 75-80, you probably won't be disappointed.

Todd Plate's n…

July 12th, 2011 at 1:30 PM ^

Rather than start with factors, i.e. returning starters and look at some results.  What are the 5 or 10 biggest leaps in overall D from one year to the next?  Then let's breakdown what was going on in all those scenarios to see if Michigan's mirrors that in anyway. 

I don't expect a top 25 D...I"m in the top 60ish or so camp.  The points have been made, but I am currently finding typing very soothing. 

A highly regarded D coord who will get to run the defense he knows how to; Players playing in their natural position; Martin getting help inside on the line (with healthy ankles); A more experienced offense that a) will hopefully improve upon their turnover rate and b) while they no doubt regress in yardage, I'd imagine they will increase their time of possession based on a) and the scheme;

Look no further than Sparty's secondary from '09 to '10.  statistically in '09 they were as bad as Michigan's last year (the same exact ranking in fact, 110th or something), in '10 they improved dramatically.  One unit, yes, but why/how did they make the leap?

MGoNukeE

July 12th, 2011 at 1:34 PM ^

How big is the variance in the average improvement data? Since Brian himself said it was based on very little data points extrapolated to make something meaningful out of it, the improvement metric that Connolly uses needs to have standard deviation associated with it. If less than 100 teams have been sampled, the error is greater than 10% assuming Poisson statistics (probably a very generous assumption in the case of F/+ improvement). If the mean change in rank is 33 according to Connolly, that's subject to a 4-rank error, putting Michigan anywhere from 78th to 86th.

Now assume that only 10 teams have been sampled. Then the error is about 32%, which means error bars of 10 ranks, putting Michigan from 72nd to 92nd.

If only 2 teams have been sampled (that is, only the two teams that have ranked 115th in defensive F/+ since the F/+ metric first appeared in the 2009 Football Outsiders Almanac), that is prone to a 70% error, giving a set of error bars of 23 ranks, putting Michigan anywhere from 39th to 115th.

In other words, this statistic tells us nothing unless there is some system of variance associated with it.

CompleteLunacy

July 12th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^

Simple averages are not the way to go here. If I told you tomorrow's average temp was 80, would that be enough info for you? Well, if it's gonna get up to 100 and a massive cold front comes through and the temp plummets into the 60s or lower, the answer would hopefully be "hell, no". Same general concept.

Put another way: If I told you tomorrow's climatological average hightemp was 80, is that a good enough extrapolator for you to expect 80s for a high tomorrow? It may work a significant number of times, but if you add in extra variables (is there a storm system around? What was the temp yesterday? or...in football...a new coaching staff and the fact that returning starters are freshmen not 5th year seniors), then your extrapolation simply isn't reliable.

MCalibur

July 12th, 2011 at 4:23 PM ^

This is a reasonable discussion but of course baking in more information will improve the forecast...even then you wont know until you know, you know?

If I asked you to predict a generic tomorrow's peak temperature using only two pieces of data, which two would you choose?

In general, I think using returning starters and previous year's performance is a good opener. That's all this is.

CompleteLunacy

July 12th, 2011 at 7:15 PM ^

I can't argue against what you're saying...if I only had two pieces of data, I wouldn't be able to make a reliable or very meaningful forecast. I guess that was kinda what I was saying (or somewhat getting at)...what Brian has linked here is certainly a start or a good jumping off point, but it's nothing to get all Butters-depressed about. Kinda like using today's high-temp as your prediction for tomorrow's (which would be the first data point I'd use) It's a fine baseline, but it's not exactly reliable. 

CRex

July 12th, 2011 at 1:34 PM ^

The deal is though that ending up at 82nd isn't the end of it.

On the other side of the field we should have a junior QB who turns it over less.  A MANBALL running game to kill the clock when desired.  The ability to kick freaking FGs.  In other words the defense should be put in fewer bad spots by the offense and hopefully we aren't playing from behind (and the negative mentality that comes with it).  

The offense may regress (I'd say likely) but hopefully the offense's ability to play Carrball (run off left tackle, throw short route to TE, eat up 7 minutes on a 40 yard drive) improves and the offense can from time to time help the defense.  In concrete examples during the Illinois game when we're trading scores, perhaps the offense manages to kill a massive chunk of time and thus exposes the defense to two fewer Illini drives.  The defense can improve because they're sitting on the bench drinking gatorade.

M-Wolverine

July 12th, 2011 at 6:19 PM ^

They'll be top 50 or whatever, and continue to get better with recruits like the one's we have committed. We were going in the opposite direction before...with the previous staff we were on line to drop to 138th in defense out of not 138 teams. Because ever year was "it can't get worse...", and it did. This time I might believe it, if incrementally. But it doesn't stop there, as the talent increases.

badjuju81

July 12th, 2011 at 1:52 PM ^

I enjoyed the statistical analysis.  The number of returning defensive starters is a contributor to what one could predict as an overall win/loss record, which is all that matters regarding on-field results.

I would like to see a similar statistical analysis, covering only the Big Ten over the last decade, regarding what we should expect as a win/loss record based soley on the average player weight for the whole team, i.e. a single-variable linear regression:

%wins = A * average player weight + B.

You could call it the beefy Wellman manball effect.

For really low-sample fun, though, nothing beats projecting what happens with a 2nd-year-starter dilithium QB, but in a new offensive scheme. Which has been the favorite topic of debate ever since we knew Denard was staying.  From my point of view, as long as #16 is our QB and leader, it is going to be fun to watch, easy to root for, and never hopeless.  Lord how I will miss him when he's gone. 

grossesheintsc…

July 12th, 2011 at 1:54 PM ^

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how us ending up with the 82nd ranked defense this year would be anything but a huge success. In one year we would transform a defense that was essentially the worst in all of college football (not to mention the worst in Michigan history) into one that is better than about a quarter of the country. All while continuing to improve the coaching, talent level, and experience of the defense, setting us up to improve even more in the coming years. 

I understand that the 82nd ranked defense is not good, and it is downright horrible for Michigan, but you have to look at where we're coming from and realize that we won't field a top-10 defense overnight no matter who the coordinator is or what recuites we can sign. Personally, I'd be thrilled with a jump of almost 40 places this season!

Erik_in_Dayton

July 12th, 2011 at 1:57 PM ^

Blackjack has a finite amount of outcomes and a finite amount of variables.  This is why, if you're a math whiz, a computer, or Rain Main, you can predict with some certainty what will happen in a game.  Football has an infinite amount of variables and, depending on what you're looking at, an infinite amount of outcomes.  Football teams are also only equals in the sense that they are made up of young men who wear football gear and who take the field eleven at a time...All of this makes it border-line meaningless to look at what other teams have done in the past and then apply the results to a prediction of what Michigan will do. 

I expect Michigan to go about 6-6 this year, with the D and O both moving toward mediocrity for the time-being.  I don't think you can learn much of anything about Michigan by looking at other teams' improvements (or lack thereof), though. 

Wolvmarine

July 12th, 2011 at 2:01 PM ^

Didn't Syracuse improve drastically on D the year after GERG with Shafer and a new staff? I want to say 100 something to 40 something? I could be wrong and the change I am thinking of took two years.
<br>
<br>I expect realistically somewhere around the 60's to be realistic. Taking into account: Michigan D + 1 year + TWoolf + Mattison + Hoke + Competent Position Coaches + 4-3 Manball - GERG - Offensive Turnovers = significantly much more improved D.

BlueGoM

July 12th, 2011 at 11:47 PM ^

Syracuse 2010 #7 total defense

http://web1.ncaa.org/football/exec/rankingSummary?org=688&year=2010&wee…

Syracuse 2009 #37 total defense

http://web1.ncaa.org/football/exec/rankingSummary?org=688&year=2009&wee…

Syracuse 2008  #101 total defense

http://web1.ncaa.org/football/exec/rankingSummary?org=688&year=2008&wee…

Having said that Syracuse played Maine, Colgate, and Akron in 2010, and Akron is just awful, so take that #7 with a grain of salt.

Anyway I'll settle for an average defense, rankings be damned.  An average B10 defense would be light years better than what we had last year.

 

 

 

SanDiegoWolverine

July 12th, 2011 at 2:18 PM ^

that Brian missed.  I imagine we are being compared to teams in the past with horrible defenses and also low talent. I'm talkinabout the EMU's, Bolling Green's, NMU's, San Jose State's of the world.  Even when those teams return 9, 10, or 11 guys on D I can't imagine they improve all that much because their talent disparity against the top 60 or 70 teams is so big.  Michigan has a lot of talent on the defensive side (not as much as maybe in the future) and thus we have more upside.

I'd be more interested (screw the small sample size) about how top 40 (historically) teams did after having a bottom 20 or 30 defense and returning a lot of starters.  I just don't think it's relavant to compare us to teams with returning starts but very little talent.  Maybe if we went back 20 some years be could get enough data points to make is significant, either way it would be interesting to see.

dahblue

July 12th, 2011 at 4:26 PM ^

I wouldn't say that prediction is my thing, and I'm honest enough to say that.  Now, had I completely blown every prediction I made with regard to Hoke (and been immensely hypocritical in the process), I'd be way out of line in continuing to levy negative predictions.

If I were to toss out a hunch based on the off-the-field work that Hoke and Co. have done so far, I'd assume our D will land in the 65-75 range.  Our offense...I think that's a much more difficult guess.  I expect points per game to increase a bit with a drop in yards per game (that guess coming based on Hoke's SDSU offense last season).  So...in short...just hunches.  I guess I could have picked a couple of stats and completely ignored the scheme and coaching to predict a 99th ranked D, but that seems too Doomsday for me.  

Side note...this quote from Brian is a doozy:

...digging out of a hole this big is a multi-year project

After all of the crying about "we're turning the corner and just need a new DC", our hole is now a "multi-year project"?  Pick a lane and stay there.

dahblue

July 12th, 2011 at 10:01 PM ^

To those dropping the negs...feel free to name one prediction that Brian has been right about regarding the new staff and the post-RR program.  Just one.

Denard leaving - wrong
Mass exodus of current players - wrong
Lucky to land a 10 man class in 2011 - wrong
Difficulty recruiting going forward- wrong
Etc.

As I've mentioned before, Brian has done an excellent job putting together a blog with much useful (and some useless...cats, horses, milkshakes) information.  It's got something for everyone.  BUT, the guy who complained about negativity toward RR just won't stop when it comes to Hoke's tenure.  Maybe Brian just wants the ad clicks (Freep style), but seems like the best content comes from others (Tom VH, Tim, etc.) and Brian works best from the background.  

D.C. Dave

July 12th, 2011 at 3:43 PM ^

... does anyone think our defense would even have a chance of improving to 82nd? I'd say no way. Now, in their 3-year journey to producing the three worst defenses in Michigan history, they'd about bottomed out. Once you're ranked 110 or worse, there's not much room to get worse.

But I think there is no way the team would've even improved to 82nd. 99? Probably more than Robinson would be capable of. I can still hear Chris Spielman doing the color commentary on one of our games and openly declaring the defensive schemes Michigan was running were not sound, and the coaches seemed to be making no adjustments.

Let's be clear: Greg Robinson has proven himself as one of the worst coaches in the history of college football, a guy whose teams get worse, much worse, the longer he is there. A friend of mine who has covered Syracuse athletics for decades says Robinson was, by far, the worst head coach he's ever seen at the school, in any sport. Doug Marrone came in and ran off a bunch of players, had almost no time to recruit and the ragtag team he inherited still won more games -- immediately.

So is there any data on how much a defense improves when it goes from being coached by a clown to being coached by football coaches? Is it really possible to make a prediction based on returning starters that has any degree of reliability in a circumstance in which the last staff produced three consecutive years of the worst defense in that team's history?

MI Expat NY

July 12th, 2011 at 4:16 PM ^

You're sort of arguing against a straw man here.  Even RR's most ardent supporters believed that GERG and the whole defensive coaching staff had to go

You can't provide a data set that accomodates every situation that Michigan finds itself in (i.e. horrible coordinator to good, maybe great coordinator, returning your best CB who missed the entire previous season, specific information on youth, etc.).  This piece of information is obviously just one piece of the overall pie of what our defensive expectations should be.  However, the research does throw a little bit of cold water on one of this board's and even Brian's main talking points: loads of returning starts = massive defensive improvement.  I don't think this defense ends up the 82nd best defense in the country, but I'd be shocked if it's much better than 60.

D.C. Dave

July 12th, 2011 at 5:01 PM ^

But what I am saying is pretty simple: The research presented here indicates that it's a statistical inevitability that the Michigan defense would naturally improve, due to more experience, to 99th or to 82nd or somewhere in between.

I'm challenging that assumption if the same coaching staff had returned. I don't think more experienced players would have meant a thing and the defense would've been just as bad as the past three years, and might possibly only show a modest improvement in the rankings only because it could not drop lower. And there's a good chance it still could rank 110th or worse. And I think RichRod was just as bad at evaluating defensive players as GERG, who matches his lack of skill in that department but is even worse at coaching.

To me, the past three years offer a better statistical trend of how the defense would have played than players gaining more experience playing for a staff that had no idea what it was doing.

MI Expat NY

July 12th, 2011 at 5:24 PM ^

Oh, I get what you're saying.  My point is, who cares?  Nobody is sitting around asking, "hmm, with all this defensive talent returning, I wonder what stats say GERG would do with it next year?"  The stats were for all teams based on returning starters.  There is no breakdown based on who decided to keep their crappy defensive coordinator.  In fact, I'd expect a few in the group of teams who were the basis for the second statistical breakdown also fired their coach/defensive coordinator due to horrible defensive performance.  

This post was all about going forward.  These stats are all about going forward based on previous seasons.  It literally does not matter what would have happened had GERG still been around.

kylebennett7127

July 12th, 2011 at 5:09 PM ^

Sound coaching and a better scheme(not only for our conference) wil,l yield better results. Additionally more experience at every single position, this will produce a better defense on the field. Woolfolk adds senior leadership in the secondary imo. ArTistically inferences may not be irrelevent, but cmon, I see a much improved defense this year. Demens free to tackle, I can't wait! I'm not saying we will be a great defense but I cM see major improvements on the horizon

Patent Pending

July 12th, 2011 at 5:18 PM ^

I thought statistics showed us that the offense was going to regress this year - badly.

Aren't we returning 9 starters on offense?

Wouldn't an analysis similar the one being used here for the defense (returning starters only) reveal that the offense will be the same/better than last year?

How can statistics both show that a team with lots of returning starters on defense will only improve a little, while a team returning lots of starters on offense will not only not improve, will decline?

MI Expat NY

July 12th, 2011 at 5:30 PM ^

If you look at the extremely small sample size statistics, teams that returned nine starters from defenses that were part of the very best defenses in the country saw their performance regress the next year.  

There you go.  Fits your scenario perfectly.  Of course, with 8 or 10 starters, there was actually an improvement, so it goes to show why Brian gives multiple warnings.

The fact is that our offense and defense are in inverse situations, for every reason that one could say our defense will over achieve as compared to these types of returning starters, the same or very similar reasons could be used to show that our offense will under achieve.  The key to the season will be how far from these statistical inferences we are on both sides of the ball.

ChicagoB1GRed

July 12th, 2011 at 6:17 PM ^

Nebraska went from being one of the worst defenses, to respectable, to one of the country's best in two seasons once Bo Pelini took over, just by coaching 'em up, scheming to his talent, and moving people into the right positions.

There's some merit in your argument, but returning starters, seniors, and recruiting stars aren't everything.

I predict UM's defense under Mattison will improve just like Nebraska, if it does you'll contend for the Legends title.

 

 

tlhwg

July 12th, 2011 at 8:22 PM ^

I expect your Defense to be between around #30 next year.  And here's why--it's an argument by analogy:

In 2009 FSU was #79 Defensive S&P (DS&P) http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaadef2009

In 2010 we were #32 in DS&P http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaadef

Here's what changed between 2009 and 2010:

1. A new, good OC who was implemented a conservative, simple scheme that the players could handle.

2. 2009 was a historically bad year (worst year in 20+ seasons).

3. In 2010 FSU returned 8 D starters, but only 2 were seniors (in 2010). 

Sound familiar?  In 2010 you were #86 DS&P, which is slightly worse than FSU in 2009.  In 2011 your D will be coached by a new, good DC who will run a back-to-basics D that your D players can handle.  You return more starters in 2011 than FSU did in 2010 *but* you also return more experienced starters than FSU's.  Returning starters is only 1 piece of the puzzle for projecting DS&P--also important is what class (Fr, So, Jr, Sr) these returning starters are.

FSU's progression from 2009-2010 and the similarities to Michigan's transition from 2010 to 2011 make me believe that Michigan's D will be somewhere around #30 DS&P.

cigol

July 12th, 2011 at 10:18 PM ^

Perhaps the reason that there is no NFL talent is because guys haven't developed properly over the past few years in regards to weight gain, speed, not to mention....actually playing defense.  I'd like to see what Mike Martin's stock would look like if he had been in a 4-3 with a blitz minded coach and had racked up 15 sacks over the last two seasons.  After all, many of these guys were 4 stars when they came in, so they obviously had the tools relative to their peers at one time.  Some seem to call this "bad luck," but some of it has to be attributable to under achieving due to bad coaching.

JohnCorbin

July 13th, 2011 at 2:04 AM ^

I know our offense:defense time is really only like 32:28 on paper, but I felt our defense was always on the field.

No huddle offense.

This is changing.  We're going to be slowing it down a little next year offensively, which will hopefully give our defense an extra second to breathe.

I mean, I'm a math major and have taken some upper level statistics classes, and I think it's a bit ridiculous they're trying to use statistics to justify how we're going to perform next year.  There are too many variables for our team specifically that are going to change how we do next year defensively.  Everyone has made points on how much difference coaching makes.  That, plus a little bit of depth, is going ot make us great.

Look at the talent on the defensive side of the ball.  If you tell me a competent DC can't mold those players into a respectable defense, I'll call you a liar.  There is a lot of talent there, we just need to use it correctly.