this is the tale of two completely different worlds when you look at recruiting numbers from last year to this year.
in town for free camps
GBW is reporting that OH S Ray Vinopal has committed to Michigan($). Either that or they just like posting stories titled simply "Ray Vinopal!" Informative update coming.
GURU RATINGS & CHATTER
|2*, #144 S||2*, NR||2*, 68, #254 ATH|
All right… yeah. So Vinopal is a "sleeper" if you want to be kind or a "MAC prospect" if you're not a Michigan fan. But hey, he's basically Ted Ginn!
I saw Vinopal take an end around for a touchdown against MY Irish (St. Vincent St. Mary). The kid is ridiculously fast. He's one of those kids who you get into school and worry about a position later.
I hate to throw the comparison out there, but he reminds me of a shorter Ted Ginn.
Doesn't have the same top end speed IMO, but a very very good football player.
Oh. So, like, a slow Ted Ginn. More, because as long as we're taking a comment from a random Notre Dame message board it might as well be the whole thing:
People forget Ginn was a top cornerback coming out of high school, and switched to WR as a freshman. I could see the same thing with Ray. People will look at his size and say corner, but I think he'd be deadly in the slot and as a returner.
ESPN, for its part, does not reference Ted Ginn in its evaluation of the #254 "athlete" in the country:
Lacks desired length and height as a high-point safety as well. He is an active run defender who will come down and fill hard; provides good secondary support. Shows adequate closing burst and makes solid contact as a tackler with better-than-adequate pop. Overall underneath range and speed is good but he does not fill with great downhill burst and sharp angles; loses outside leverage on the ball at times. … Lacks quick diagnosing and reaction skills which is a concern. Not a guy who projects well playing down over the top of slots in man coverage schemes and feel he could struggle mirroring/breaking down on quicker skill players in space.
That is Jordan Kovacs. I don't know, maybe this evaluation was pre-senior season and he got a lot better, warranting the interest from major programs this fall, but that's the least enthusiastic ESPN scouting report this guy has ever seen.
They aren't encouraging, as Vinopal was a sleeper going into his senior season and despite "interest" from a number of local power programs it doesn't appear that any other than Michigan pulled the trigger. So, the teams beaten out: Bowling Green, Kent State, and Air Force.
For what it's worth, Vinopal claimed that Notre Dame—where he visited for the USC game—and Pitt were considering him after his strong senior year. Wisconsin also might have offered in July or something, but it's unclear.
No senior stats yet but here's his junior year:
After intercepting two passes his sophomore season, the 5-foot-11 and 185-pound Vinopal had another interception his junior season and had three games in which he made over 10 tackles. Vinopal also rushed for 1,112 yards and scored 12 times.
FAKE 40 TIME
How about a spectacularly FAKE combine from Vinopal's freshman year?
Also deserving special mention was freshman ATH Ray Vinopal of Cardinal Mooney in Ohio. At 5-foot-9 ½ and 178-pounds, he had a 28.5-inch vertical, 9-foot broad, 4.45 shuttle, 4.56 40, and 30 reps at 135-pounds.
4.56 40 as a freshman gets four FAKES out of five.
Vinopal is the guy running around with a huge arrow over his head:
And some pass coverage:
PREDICTION BASED ON FLIMSY EVIDENCE
Well… if you care about recruiting rankings, Vinopal is clearly the least exciting recruit in the class. That ESPN evaluation checks off all the things you don't want to hear about a recruit: small, slow, confused, etc. And on film he really does look like Kovacs. But there's a reason I don't watch recruiting film: I am a blogger. Obviously Michigan and a couple other schools looking at Vinopal thought there was something there, but recruiting rankings are meaningful things and a Brandent Englemon is a best-case scenario here.
That said, sometimes guys fall through the cracks and a lot of successful defenses are built from parts like Tyler Sash and whoever Wisconsin's running out there these days. The odds are against Vinopal, but that's not a guarantee.
UPSHOT FOR THE REST OF THE CLASS
You can write off the renewed Oh S LaTwan Anderson interest: with Vinopal's addition, Michigan has six defensive backs in this class and is primed to add a seventh in FL CB Tony Grimes. More likely, Marvin Robinson will find himself at linebacker before long.
More interesting is the scholarship situation: Vinopal is the 23rd commitment and three guys are expected to commit sooner or later, pushing Michigan over 25 and necessitating someone coming in on a grayshirt if there is no attrition. Vinopal may be that grayshirt candidate, come to think of it. It's clear that Michigan will sign 28 this year with three guys aware that they are candidates to grayshirt if everyone gets in. Vinopal and the two guys currently unqualified are the most likely.
Etc.: Photo gallery of a Mooney blowout has several pictures of Vinopal.
this is the tale of two completely different worlds when you look at recruiting numbers from last year to this year.
does anyone else not think that he looks really good on film? the only thing vinopal and kovacs seem to have in common are that they are white and play safety. vinopal seems like a much better athlete - more fluid, much sharper in coverage, much better ball skills. i wouldn't be surprised to see him get another star (or two) because based on these films he looks more like a 3 or 4 star to me.
This has probably already been said, but PJ Fecko is one of the best HS coaches in Ohio, and Mooney just won another state title today, so if anything there's that.
For comparison's sake, Devin Gardner squeeked by Steubenville, Mooney rolled them by 4 tds last week..
Wish I wouldve known he was even in the picture, I wouldve gone to check him out. I'm hoping he turns out like another Mooney S, Dan McCarthy who starts (and is going to be really good) at ND..
Looks good to me, but I'm not a football coach. When I read the quoted info about him I immediately thought, "Oh, another Kovacs." Which is exactly what Brian said, I know. But I thought he looked good on tape, and quicker than Kovacs.
Just sayin...this isn't RichRod's first foray into Cardinal Mooney while at Michigan. The first one didn't end so well. Just sayin...
I like the idea of taking some guys who "know how to play". We saw it this year with Kovacs and Leach being vastly less talented than the guys who were recruited to start, but the value of knowing the game and being a good football player outranks just being faster and stronger than everyone else. Faster and Stronger is worthless if you have your head up your butt and don't know where to go. We saw a lot of that on D last year, hopefully a recruit like this is because of his game knowledge and ability to do what he's supposed to do without needing 3 years of coaching to do it. Rich isn't in a good spot to put his hopes on more guys like Campbell and Turner who for whatever reason had fundamentals so bad coming out of high school that they couldn't get on the depth chart for the last place team in the big ten.
Guarantee that this kid gets a third star on Rivals or Scout based on his commitment to Michigan. Funny how things work like that.
The acquisition of Vinopal increases team speed on defense. It also give you a speedy punt returner. He may not be the answer, but he will be a cog in the machine. I see this commit as depth in the secondary. Also Michigan will have players fast enough to take away angles on defense. Vinopal is another hornet in the swarm. Be patient. RR knows what he is doing.
Wait, if we have a punt returner, what will Brian write in his previews for the key special teams matchup?
DON'T HURT YOURSELF! seems a little less analytical.
If he can step up to the college level and make plays for us, then I'm not going to care so much about his recruiting rank.
chastise north carolina a couple years ago when they took on all those greyshirts? sigh. i guess beggars cant be choosers, but i dont like the path we're going down with the overcommits.
Yeah lets just not use those scholarships that are available. We can afford to do that for 4 years until we finally have enough players.
If I remember that situation correctly, though, NC was recruiting way over their number of available spots and were basically pushing kids out as they signed other guys. Same with Alabama. There might be one or two grayshirts, at worst, in this group, and even that bugs me. But UNC seemed to be pretty egregious at the time.
we really gave a wag of our finger to butch davis and nc, when, right now our attitude is more along the lines of "eh, it has to be done in todays day and age"
i dont think this would have been okay a couple years ago, but i honestly think we as a fan base are starting to (albeit slowly) shift to the win at all cost mentality. a couple grayshirts here and there may not seem like alot, but it could also be that first step towards a path we shouldnt be going towards.
rich rod has been talking alot about "building a program the right way" i think, whether or not this is egregious, we cant really make the argument that it is "right".
just my e-opinion though.
This guy has great instincts and always seems to know where they ball is. There were times in that highlights video where teams would do a zone read or a triple option and Vinopal would always find the ball. I am not saying this kid is going to be amazing but he will be a solid player at the very least. The 4.5 GPA is also pretty impressive.
Looks like a combination of Ted Ginn, Deion Sanders, and Charles Woodson. A sure future Heisman winner. Wow!
offer. I'm not saying that he does not deserve a scholarship, but why not wait to see how the other higher rated recruits pan out first? Michigan is competing against Kent State, BGSU, and Air Force! I'm sure that if RR waited a little longer and kept in contact that he could have offered him in January and he would have still committed.
For those of you who argue that RR knows something more about this kid than the recruiting sites, what about DT John Hankins? RR had a great opportunity to offer Hankins, who is a life long M fan that plays at an M pipeline. Instead RR waits, offers every 2 or 3 star in the country, then Oklahoma, Florida, and O$U offer him, and then RR finally extends the offer and has to play catchup with a kid in his own backyard!
I hope that Vinopal succeeds, but with the number of available scholarships, and the immediate needs on one of the worst M defenses in the history of the program can Michigan really afford to extend December offers to guys that really should be a Plan C or D? That Defense needs to improve dramatically in the next 2 years or else RR will not be back in 2012. Also, I understand that Michigan is not entitled to every 5 star recruit in the country, but how many sleepers will RR offer in each class - they currently have 5 "sleepers": Dileo, Carvin Johnson, Cornelius Jones, Vinopal, and Willamson. Will this be a trend that will continue, or will RR stop offering out hundreds of scholarships once Michigan starts winning again?
Michigan has the tradition, education, fan base, and facilities that permit them to compete with the elite programs for recruits. Depth is great, but what happens if Michigan gets one or two highly rated safetys in next years class who are ready to contribute immediately? Does Vinopal ever see the field, and how many times can you make someone switch positions? Of those 5 sleepers does anyone really think that Michigan could not have still gotten them just as easily in January or February? Go Blue!
honestly i'm not sure of the get either. but i do have one question. when was the kid evaluated? ok 2 questions. has he been re-evaluated? from his junior tape the services decided he was a 2* since he had no real offers they did not go back to look at senior film. his season just finished with no new updates on him,so as of yet no new evaluation of his senior year. let's just reserve judgement til the last re-rankings. with the MIch. offer the services will most likely go look at some senior tape and re-evaluate. for crying out loud at the beginning of the season they had ESPN 150 watchlisters that was from watching soph. tape of the kids. if they get good offers they watch more film if not they get pushed to the back burnner. so here's to RR and co. actually going out there watching these kids and talking to these kids. so let's all say welcome Ray, welcome to the big house.
Yes, I don't get why we should focus on where he was evaluated as a junior. It's important to consider, but it's just a beginning data point. He's played an entire 15+ games this season - how good is he now, relative to others? That's what matters.
When we got a commitment from Carvin, everyone was a bit dubious (he was a "no star" at the time) and based on a) his & other coaches speaking highly of him, b) him doing very well in a state playoff push, c) him having the name Carvin Johnson (admit it - if Ray Vinopal had a more intimidating name like Barkevious Mingo, it would make a difference to some folks) and d) him getting evaluated by the services, now Carvin is a 3 star and everyone seems pretty satisfied that we got him.
Plus, looking at the 3rd picture down here, http://www.mooneyfootball.com/, Ray is definitely excited about coming to Michigan (he's not the guy in the jester hat!).
I, too, wish we could be like USC and Florida and have 5 stars falling from the sky. Unfortunately, that's never been the case at U of M (we've always gotten 1, maybe 2, at most per year) and certainly won't be until we turn it around. I'll take an all-state guy, at position of need, from a Div III (out of six divisions) Ohio power.
Why you say???? THE KID CAN F#$*ing TACKLE!
What I want to know is this:
Is the extra scholarship used on Terry Talbott worth using at this point to get Terrence?
If I got the names mixed up I apologize, but you know what I mean.
Terry probably has the most upside out of all the DB that is currently committed to our class. He is a good athlete, very good hips, quick feet. Just a bit raw but upside is huge.
Ray Vinopal is a player that comes from good football stock. He is one of the better players on a football team that is not only the state champs [I believe they're repeating]; but they are currently rated the #10 best high school football team in the nation according to Maxprep. Don't let the skin color fool you, the kid can play. He is nobody's plan B. He's got speed and has a nose for the ball. There was no logical reason for this kid to have flown under the radar but that shows us how reliable the rating services are. Trust me, the bigger schools will be calling him between now and signing day.
Is definitely a guy that will fill the depth chart. I don't see him getting much playing time.
Your post strikes me as expressing an inordinate amount of certainty, given the amount and quality of information you likely have.
athletic ability, a great GPA and likely a great work ethic. Ray - congratulations on your scholarship offer to the University of Michigan! Go Blue!
I would feel much better about him if it didn't look like he was hanging on for dear life on every tackle. He seems to give up 2-3 YAC on every tackle he makes.
I guess at this stage I should just be happy with someone who can get the tackle in the first place.
I am a little late to the Mgoblog party. We are getting a champion on the field and in the classroom. It is a win-win. Welcome.
Grit can overcome anything. Just ask Spartacus.
he seems to be a smart player and a good hitter, plus he seems to have a nose for the bal. you can coach that up. he might be a step slower than williams (or, it should be noted, he might not) , but i'm less worried about him overrunning plays.
welcome to michigan, ray - you're going to the greatest school in the world, and you'll have a chance to play on a very big stage. good luck!
I posted this in another thread but thought some of the Vinopal haters might want to consider the possible long-term potential of signing Vinopal.
When Vinopal announced he was signing a whole 24 hours ago, I did have the initial why not wait a month or two till things shake out till we take him. However, I have done a complete 180 recently based on some good posts, film and a brief study of Mooney's past classes.
Starting in 08 and going forward Mooney has had some great talent ranked above 5.6 on Rivals
Rivals and School-LOI
6.0 Penn St
5.9 Penn St
5.8 Notre Dame
5.8 MICHIGAN -Taylor Hill and yes I known he transferred
5.7 Ohio State
5.9 West Virgina
5.6 Undecided with BCS offers
......no doubt every player will be a 6.1
As many have said, Mooney is becoming a BCS level feeder school where Michigan needs to have a foot in the door. More importantly, as with many schools both high school and college, success breeds success. If you're a solid freshman high school football player with some major potential in Ohio, you will definitely think about attending Mooney especially with the BCS offers that have flowed in recent years. With Vinopal, Michigan now has a solid in to the coaches which is key. So I say, thank you RichRod for making an investment in Mooney and thinking about the long-term needs of the Michigan program. Sure there may be a chance RichRod may not be here in a few years (I hope not) but he is definitely laying a foundation at key schools that will benefit the football team.
1. ESPN is about the least reliable of the recruiting services. Their rankings almost always seem to be outliers, which I am sure those of us who have subscriptions to all 3 and who follow recruiting closely can attest.
2. We should probably stop speculating about the maximum number of scholarships and the effect on the offers for this class and wait until we have definitive information. Like Mr. Roh said, recruits read these boards, and if we don't know what we are saying is true for certain, and they don't know any better, we could lose interested recruits.
3. I tend to trust someone who spotted Steve Slaton and Pat White, neither of whom were highly rated and both of whom turned into stars under RR, more than the recruiting services.
This is just my opinion and it's not worth the space it is taking on this board, but these are things that I think are worth thinking about before we decide this guy is either going to be a bust or Brandent Engelmon (which is not too much of a compliment) at best.
To be fair, Pat White was recruited as an athlete at those other schools. RR clearly saw the potential of White as a QB in his system. That shows some insight.
Vinopal reminds me of Tim Dwight (Iowa) and Wes Welker
I've read most of the entries, and it amazes me how little people know about college football. They know Michigan's past, which was glorious, but they fail to see where we are now. This rebuilding process is something that the modern Michigan Nation has not seen. Everyone has the answer of course. Most people are hopeful. Right now I trust the coaches. The coaches know their system. They acquire the players they need. and will build Michigan into the athletic, agile, shifty juggernaut that will be the next era of its own dominance of the cfb world.
At this point, I'd rather put my trust in a kid that other coaches like as well.
So what you're saying is you want Rich Rod fired? (Yes, I AM putting words in your mouth)
If you think you know more than he does on how to recruit players for Michigan (offer only who other coaches like) then you'd better go buy your torch and pitchfork now and beat the rush.
Recruiting is the most fundamental aspect of college coaching there is! There's no free agency!
You either evaluate talent properly and recruit the right kids for your school or you don't. Those who do (and coach them properly) win championships; those who don't (who may be great tacticians) will never see those teams rise above mediocrity.
If you don't buy the already listed possible reasons that this guy was signed:
1. Our current record, coupled with inside info about de-commits means this is the best of very bad options.
2. He actually has more talent than most think and RR has seen it.
If you don't buy either one of those, the only conclusion is: 3. That Rich Rod has fucked up, and can't recruit properly, therefore he should probably be canned.
I think 1 and 2 are more realistic (at least optimistic) to me, but if you don't think so, then you shouldn't be too surprised by all the negging going on.
Maybe Rich Rod sees a bit of himself in the kid. Maybe he's a Pat Tillman type of kid. I don't believe Tillman was very big in high school either.
I do like the sound of this:
Can we all admit that the situation is starting to look, at the very least, less than desirable for next year? I'm sure RR knows what he's doing, but this is disconcerting. I mean, that guy is what, our third or fourth "sleeper" in the '10 class? *cringes*
My high school teammate Jairus Byrd was a 2 star recruit coming out of high school. He ended up being the Pac-10's Freshman of the Year and leads the NFL in INTs as a rookie and will probably win defensive Rookie of the Year. Coming out of High School he woudn't have impressed most of you because his 40 wasn't all the fast and he was a little undersized but he had a nose for the ball and he won. Ray reminds me a lot of my boy Jairus. With the way things have gone the last few years especially on defense, what is so bad about RR taking a safety who creates turnovers and wins?
I thought I was the only guy who went to Michigan who played high school football with Jairus. All my buddies were assuming that I authored this post. That being said, I totally agree with all your points. Good job.
I saw him play his state finals game on television against a good team in columbus desales. He does remind me of Jordan Kovacs except he has more speed and better pass coverage. As long as the kid can tackle and not let receivers get behind him he is okay with me.
Also, I heard commentators saying that dion lewis, who is pittsburgh's starting rb wasn't even rated in New Jersey's top 150!