"The University of Illinois is also in turmoil. The university sports an Interim Chancellor, an Interim Athletic Director, and an Interim Football Coach; the game will be played at Soldier Field, making this an Illini Interim Home Game."
"There's a certain level of confidence and composure he brings to the court," said sophomore forward Aubrey Dawkins, who played the bulk of his minutes as a freshman while LeVert sat on the end of the bench in a sweat suit. "When you know you have a player like that on your team of that caliber, it's just like, we're in his hands and he can do a lot of things for this team. It's a comfort. It's nice."
"I just really wanted to see him in a game and I loved what I saw," Beilein said. "He was active. He's got a motor. He's got some things he's got to work on. He doesn't have the strength to (play) the way he'd like to in the Big Ten yet, but that's what we're going to work on in-between (games) without inhibiting his ability to play the next game."
Lloyd Carr coached every game like he had a fantastic running game and great defense. He usually had an okay running game and a good defense, so this caught up to him from time to time. When Jim Tressel arrived and showed the men of manball what manball really was, Michigan's downward spiral began. In time, Tresselball would come to signify the exact same thing Lloydball did except without the oh and we lose the most important game of the year every time.
I grew to hate Lloydball.
The moment I threw in the towel is crystal clear in my memory, and by this point probably many longtime readers: punting from the opponent 34 against Ohio State in 2005. It was fourth and four. The clock read 4:18. Michigan had a two point lead. They'd recently had a nine point lead, but OSU ripped off a five-play touchdown drive in under a minute to change that. Michigan's defense had faced four do-or-die drives* already that year and failed on all of them. Faced with third and eleven, Michigan threw a screen to Antonio Bass for seven yards. They punted out of a field goal formation, which was so obvious to Tressel that they put a guy back there to field it. He would have had a shot at a touchdown if the punt hadn't exited the field at the twelve.
Just minutes before—literally in the same quarter—Lloyd had taken his frenzied quarterback's advice and gone for a QB sneak on fourth and one on his own 40. This caused everyone in the stadium to pick a partner with whom to share an incredulous look. This was not the way things went. The fourth down was successful; one bomb to Manningham later Michigan had staked itself to a two-score lead. That only made the knife cut deeper when in the moment of truth Carr reverted to form.
Michigan punted once Saturday.
I'm not sure if it's football in general that has shifted or if it's just Brady Hoke, but when Michigan had a fourth and two around the same area on Saturday, eyebrows were only slightly cocked when Michigan went for it. While Michigan was down 10-0, this was still the third quarter.
Lloyd wouldn't have even thought about it if his defense had given up 139 yards to that point. But he wouldn't have been down 10-0 in the first place. He would have squinted at his quarterback, wondered where the six-six artillery piece had gotten to, shrugged, and told his offensive coordinator to thud out a ten-point win based on Michigan's superior ground game. Only he would have had that faith, because he always had that faith.
But it was true. Take out a knee and ND averaged 3.2 yards a carry. Take out three sacks and a bad snap for Michigan and they averaged 5.1. That's a cavernous gap, one that a dinosaur coach would have driven through to a boring, field-goal-heavy victory.
Instead, we got several more entries in our database of what happens when Denard Robinson gets unblocked rushers in his face.
Is it good? No. Does it make any sense at all to run play action from under center on passing downs? No. Is it ever going to stop? No.
Well, maybe. Michigan did not throw a pass before third down on their two grinding second-half drives before the hurry-up was called for. Do that for the next eight games and run play action off plays you actually run and then Denard might get back to the things he was doing in an offense that was not trying to jam him into a hole he clearly does not fit. I thought maybe we'd learned that lesson after Iowa, but apparently not.
When stressed, people making decisions find it very hard to move away from habit. Everyone reverts to their comfort zone unless they are making a concerted effort to get away from it. Even then, you fall back into old patterns. Lloyd punted. Rodriguez installed a 3-3-5 defense. Borges starts calling plays from a long-ago offense helmed by a guy who was a better passer than runner. Denard throws the ball somewhere, anywhere.
Over the bye week, Michigan will refocus on what they're good at. This will get them through some games. They'll get comfortable with this, think they can install more stuff, and we'll get another Iowa, one they might pull out since the defense might be good and the Big Ten is definitely bad. And Denard will soldier through it, taking barbs from people who don't realize he could be in his first of two years at Oregon now, doing what he was born to.
He's not. He's doing this. This is "this": Al Borges has been Michigan's offensive coordinator for 17 games now. Five were against non-BCS opponents. A sixth was against Alabama and will be set aside. Of the remaining eleven, five were out-and-out debacles: both Notre Dame games, MSU, Iowa, and the Sugar Bowl. That Junior Hemingway rescued two of those doesn't change the fact that in about half of Michigan's games against real competition, the combination of Borges and Denard can't put up 200 yards until bombed out of the gameplan by events on the field.
You can blame Denard if you want. Sure, that happened in 2010, when Denard was a true sophomore and the second-leading rusher was Vincent Smith. I'm more concerned about the guy who isn't gone after this year, the offensive coordinator who vows to never work with a quarterbacks coach again and can't stand it when anyone dares to scream "RUN THE GODDAMN BALL" at him over and over and over and over and over, except whatever the press conference version of that is. Asking about bubble screens and stuff.
One day Borges will have a shining golden hammer of a quarterback, six-four, carved from marble, jawline for days. This man will coolly survey the field after faking a handoff to a two-hundred-thirty-pound bowling ball with knives sticking out of it. No one will run up in his face, because they are afraid the bowling ball has it. He will throw it to another six-foot-four man, this one long and graceful, built for escaping packs of hunters. This will be a good day. Nails are so dead.
Until then, here's to running, punting, and humility.
[Wisconsin: 52 yard, 11 play, four minute TD drive to win. Minnesota: eight play, 75-yard FG drive to win. Penn State: 13 play, 81-yard drive to wi—OH MY GOD MANNINGHAM. Iowa: 9 play, 74-yard FG drive to tie; Ferentz played for OT once in FG range, because he is Ferentz.]
All the INTs:
Bullets Yes More Bullets In The Head Please
Sanity check. I know I may not be entirely reliable on this matter, but stuff coming through my twitter feed from the folks I respect most as college football observers helped me think this was not just a mania. Smart Football:
Nice call Borges. Denard struggling? Let's run some kind naked waggle pass from under center where we let Denard throw vs unblocked DEnd
An Al Borges cooking show would be great if you like seeing someone throw everything into a blender even if it makes no sense at all.
Blaming it on "execution" is horseshit, plain and simple. When the offensive coordinator flat-out refuses to take free yards on the outside and has not once used the devastating play action on which Denard is moving towards the line scrimmage before throwing, it is on his shoulders for not using the tools he has in the way they are most effective.
A third of the way through the ND game, Michigan had run Robinson three times. Instead Michigan threw the ball all the time against a rampant DL. The first INT was a running back in the redzone. On the second, Michigan rolled the pocket and told a redshirt freshman fullback to block Prince Shembo. On the third an unblocked Te'o roars straight up the pocket. On the fourth he ran a waggle on second and seven, which got an unblocked Tuitt in Denard's face after having thrown INTs on back to back passes.
This is a consistent theme. They go into games doing something other than making their running QB a runner, and then are surprised when it goes poorly. They have the guy turn his back to the line of scrimmage and are surprised when 1) opposing defenses prioritize getting a guy out on him and 2) he reacts poorly. The exception was last year's OSU game, during which Denard threw all of 17 times.
Robinson failed, sure, but he was put in a position to do so by a guy who puts three tight ends on the field on second and goal from the twelve yard line and fools no one with the subsequent play action. Coaches have to execute too. Borges's gameplan was a disaster, again.
Come on Denard. Let's ask Peyton Manning to be Pat White stuff aside, at some point you've got to just eat the ball, or not throw it at a guy so covered you're trying to throw it through the chest of not one but two opponents. That first Te'o interception was probably the worst throw of Denard's career; if one of the two guys underneath it didn't get it a safety in coverage on the corner had a shot at a PBU.
I bet a dollar that someone else was open on that play.
The fumble was the real killer, though. Michigan has just taken their first drive of the half 71 yards and Denard has just made it first and ten at the ND 11, boom ball out drive over everyone thinks of 2010 when Michigan put up scads of yards and usually had ten points to show for it. Down two scores and suddenly running all the time, Michigan really needed that drive to pay off.
Blame Gardner? Some people on the twitter and then Ace suggested that the slant INT was on Gardner instead of Robinson. I don't think that's the case. It looked to me like he ran a fine route and was open and Robinson just missed.
When to go for high risk trick plays. When there is a payoff commensurate with the risk. The Gardner pass is fine. You've got a play that is potentially 70-some yards if everything goes well. The Smith pass gives you at most ten and is less likely to get a guy wide open just because there's far less space. Last year's Smith TD pass was 30 yards out, which gives the WR room to break past the safeties and the RB room to throw it long. Doing that in a constricted space is asking for it when Manti Te'o is raging his way into a running back's face.
The only time I can recall Michigan running a trick play like that inside the red zone was during the 2007 Illinois game when both teams were actively conspiring to lose. With Henne shuttling in and out of the game and Mallett insane, trying the Arrington end-around pass after a muffed punt was a defensible decision. At the end of an 11-play, 78-yard drive maybe not so much.
What is this huddling business again? There's a case that you shouldn't be doing it at all; not only is huddling a useless anachronism but going away from it locks defensive personnel on the field and gives you easier looks as the opponent struggles to keep up. See Oregon, of course.
But even if you're intent on huddling the time to do so has passed when you're down two scores with 6:46 left. There's something to be said for the idea that an offense should be using tempo as much as possible so that in situations like that they are naturals at it. It's a lot easier to slow down than speed up.
Anyway, I had bad flashbacks to that Iowa game as Michigan took 3:19 and used a timeout on their last drive.
OTOH, didn't mind the end of the first half playcalling since in that situation you're worried about giving ND a possession they can use and you've just thrown interceptions on three straight plays. Why throw a Hail Mary with 16 seconds left, though? And what was Roundtree even doing there?
Defense! Woo defense! Also filed under "if you told me before the game…" with "Michigan would punt once": "Notre Dame would have under 200 yards of offense with three minutes to go." Before Floyd stumbled on that third down bomb to Eifert, Michigan had held two ND QBs to 5.6 YPA and two interceptions, with the only completion over twenty yards another tough fade on the sideline.
From way up in the stands I had a great view of the routes developing and nobody was open basically all day. Combine that with Quinton Washington problems like "is not tackling when he bursts into the backfield on three consecutive plays" and you have a soothing balm to apply as you look forward to the rest of the season. I'm actually eager to get to the UFRing just so I can see how the guys on D did. Live I saw Ryan make plays, Campbell make plays, Washington make plays, and that allowed the linebackers to flow freely, with the 3.1 YPC results mentioned above. Kenny Demens looks a lot better when he's not trying to fight off two different blockers on the same play.
If Washington can translate those plays against UMass and Mattison hype into an impact day on the interior line against a real opponent, Michigan's biggest question that isn't "how will Denard fail to be Peyton Manning this time" is a lot closer to resolution.
Potential caveat: ND's interior OL may not be very good. They got annihilated by Purdue (Riddick: 53 yards on 15 carries, five sacks on Golson, two by Kawann Short) and ND didn't do much against MSU that wasn't deception (counter draw) or Wood getting cutbacks similar to the one he busted for ND's only big run of the day.
Caveat caveat: "only big run of the day." The shot above is Michigan corralling the play I started calling "That Goddamned Counter Draw" after DeAndra Cobb staked MSU to the lead they'd give up during Braylonfest. I call it TGDCD because Michigan has never stopped the thing (except once, I think). They did it up there.
Brady Hoke Epic Double Point of the Week. I have no idea yet, but it's obviously someone on defense. There is a weird lack of stats for such a dominating performance, with no sacks and just two TFLs, one for Kovacs, another split by Morgan and Washington.
For now, Jake Ryan gets the nod for most impactful-seeming impactfulness, but I reserve the right to switch this to Kovacs or Washington pending review.
Freshman linebackers. They're basically co-starters at this point. I'm still nervous about them but if the D continues to perform like that in the Big Ten season, expectations for that crew will be enormous next year with four-ish returning starters, all of whom will still be around in 2014.
Demens did rotate in during the second half. He was in on six tackles, Morgan seven. Ross had one and Bolden did not register. IIRC Demens was the preferred option on passing downs, which makes sense since zone drops are often a struggle with young linebackers.
Norfleet. Please do not jump like that again. The air up there is dangerously low on oxygen and people are trying to kill you. Stay low, where you are under the radar and can execute deep infiltration missions.
ND future. I wouldn't get too worried about a full-on return to glory. If that interior OL is what it seems to be and they're flipping between Rees and Golson against the rest of their schedule, they'll drop some games. They'll still probably get that BCS bid so they can get stomped on by someone a lot better.
Funchess. Didn't really have much impact; I'll pick up the Mandich thing the next time he takes a significant step towards it. Did feature in this picture:
In the week preceding this game, some random internet poster guy asked what was the worst performance you’ve seen by a QB. I ran screaming from that post, but couldn’t escape the images of Demetrious Brown throwing seven interceptions – SEVEN INTERCEPTIONS!!! - in a game against MSU many years ago.
WHY DID YOU DO IT RANDOM INTERNET POSTER GUY, WHYYYYYY
When I was 16 and learning how to drive, my Dad, trying his best to impart some constructive criticism without being overly harsh, said, “ST3, your driving lacks a certain smoothness.” I think it’s wonderful how Devin Gardner has moved over to WR to help the team, but at this point in his career, I think his route running lacks a certain smoothness.
The results of this game and a record of 2-2 are not indicative of the abilities of this team, and it would do every Michigan fan good to forget about what has happened and to concentrate instead on what can be accomplished in the BIG. I rest easier after seeing the O and D-lines gel and play very well. Denard will bounce back.
The rest of the BIG continues to look shaky, to say the least, and Michigan should be licking their chops against the likes of Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and I dare say Michigan St at this point. Ohio has obvious problems as well, letting UAB run wild on them. Michigan should have distinct talent advantages against Northwestern and Purdue.
It’s well known that the media is prohibited from cheering in the press box but it’s not just a collection of writers upstairs at Notre Dame. After Denard connected with Gardner on a third down conversion in the first half some dude belted out, “DAMN IT!”. When Denard took off on a run later in the game, I heard, “GET ‘EM!”. And so on. I’m actually glad this happened because it created some much needed lighter moments on the glass.
The group sat in the family and friends section of Notre Dame Stadium. Steve wore his best friend’s varsity jacket. The two girls wore “Shoelace” and another Robinson-themed shirt.
This section is different. Here, the hits sound louder. The mistakes sting more.
From here, you can reach out and touch the bass drums in the Michigan band. When a Notre Dame wide receiver was open on the goal line, the parents shouted and pointed, so Thomas Gordon bumped over and covered.
Robinson’s supporters sat in the fifth row, tucked in between friends and family of freshman linebacker James Ross III and the family of fifth-year senior J.T. Floyd.
Robinson’s parents come to games “very rarely, very rarely,” J.T.’s father, James, said. Normally the Robinson clan gathers in Robinson’s grandmother’s house in Deerfield Beach, Fla. around a television.
“Every Saturday,” Durrel said. “Everybody (goes). I can’t even tell you who don’t go.”
... that Borges is in his second season. RR, even without ideal personnel, jumped from the bottom in D1A offense to slightly better than average by the second year. Does this offense look like it's trending upwards to you?
"You know, for a bartender/bookie, you're pretty judgmental."
You may remember a few games in 2010 as well as in 2009 during which our offense didn't look so hot (vs OSU, vs MSU, vs Wisconsin, etc). It happens. Actually, our offense has looked better than last year thus far up, minus the turnovers. Last year's offense had more ppg (particularly in Big Ten play) than any of RRs offenses had. So yes, I would say it is trending upward.
We have had two bad games thus far, one of which we scored on an as of yet otherwise unscored upon defense. Against ND, our offense worked pretty well, when it wasn't coughing up the ball, which was unfortunately just about every drive.
Jesus H Christ the man plays the position of quarterback. When he throws the ball into the chest of the opposing players over and over again it's okay to say he played like shit. No need for over complicating the issue. Had he NOT played like shit, the article would make no mention of Borges and glorify Denard for progressing like we all thought and hoped he would.
But he hasn't progressed like we all thought and hoped he would. The problem is everyone except our OC can see that, apparently.
Let's say the Patriots were running a read option with Brady carrying the ball 20+ times a game and Brady was terrible at it. Do you really believe that blaming the OC would be "overcomplicating the issue?"
I guess I wasn't with everyone going into the game, then.
Go ask any random defensive coordinator anytime in the last three years where they would like to see Denard Robinson lined up on passing downs. Guess what every single one of them is going to say? So yeah, let's just keep doing that. A stupid gameplan is a stupid gameplan, whether Denard executes it or not. Brian saying so doesn't mean he has an agenda.
Of course Denard played badly if the plays don't fit to his strengths...
That still doesn't explain why he's forcing so many throws into coverage. Unless he's under orders to never give up on the route, he should be throwing it away or scrambling. Throwing to well-covered receivers is not a good idea in any offense.
Denard would be so much more effective if he'd learn to just tuck and run more often. If the first read isn't there, run. If there's no room to scramble, throw it away. That really isn't that complicated. That was pretty much Vince Young's plan when he was at Texas.
Did everyone miss the part about how he CONSTANTLY had unblocked defenders bearing down on him!? It's impossible for any QB to succeed in that case.
For pete's sake, we were running play action out of formations that we NEVER actually run out of. Do you think that's going to fool anyone!? This is combined with no short outlet in the CERTAINTY of an unblocked man coming down full speed at Denard. Terrible, terrible, terrible play design.
Calm down man. Why do people fly off the handle when any criticism of the Denard is offered? I like the guy too, but he's not the perfect football player.
Over the course of his career, Denard has thrown many interceptions on plays in which he was not pressured, and moreover, he's thrown many more incompletions on plays where there was a clear running lane. There have been many missed opportunities to scramble, and it's hurt us a lot. If he would scramble more, it would make him much more effective as a passer. And he's got to learn not to try to always thread the needle into tight coverage, especially on early downs. It's OK to throw it away.
You are right, but that doesn't counter his point.
His point and yours are not mutually exclusive. It does in fact make zero sense to play action off of plays you don't run. There can be bad play design and terrible QB decisions. The question is, is the play design and playcalling increasing, decreasing or making no difference in the frequency of Denard's bad decisions. IMO it is marginally increasing the bad decisions Denard is prone to make by putting him in situations he's proven he can't handle.
"Before I could pull the trigger, I was hit by lightning, and bitten by a cobra."
I agree that there are plenty of times where poor play can be blamed on poor execution by the players. However, looking at these plays what happens if they are executed perfectly? The interception plays where Denard has pressure in his face immediately he basically just needs to take a sack. While not even near as bad as an int that is still not a good outcome. The Smith pass play made absolutely no sense. Smith had no carries up to that point and is Michigan's blocking back so the DBs were looking more for pass than run. And when it turned out to be a run they still weren't going to come up fast because they have Te'o playing LB.
Taking a sack and throwing the ball away are normal and common occurences during a football game. Not every play will be perfectly blocked and not all routes will be perfectly ran. It's up the QB to "manage" the game and take what the defense gives him. Throwing the ball in those situations is not on the OC.
I love Denard and hope he bounces back. But he played like shit Saturday and that's okay to admit.
I agree with you that Denard played terribly. Throwing three consecutive interceptions (the fourth was a hail mary so whatever) is horrible even for a high school QB. I just think that blame can also be put on Borges for play calls that seemed to magnify Denard's weaknesses. How can you not just call a play to complete a screen pass or something and give him some confidence after the first two back-to-back interceptions? Also, does anyone else feel like Denard is scared to take hits in the pocket? There are plenty of times it seems like he can step into a pass and take the hit but instead throws with his feet sideways. The guy runs with no fear but throws like he is scared out of his mind.
Well at least now we know if our turnover +/- is going to mean revert or not.
“Jon, don't they understand?! It's a privilege, it's an honor to coach for Michigan!” He said, “They don't understand. People don't understand. We're trying to do everything we can to bring Michigan back."
This is just hand-wringing. Maybe football teams just collectively choke once in a while.
This is what Henne did after winning the Rose Bowl:
Henne was criticized in 2005 after the Michigan, ranked in the top five of the preseason polls, stumbled to a 3–3 start. The sophomore quarterback was particularly scrutinized after his performance in a close loss to Notre Dame, in which he completed fewer than half of his pass attempts and lost a fumble on the goal line. After their 3–3 start, Michigan won four consecutive games to clinch the program's 21st consecutive winning season.
Sound familiar? I guess Carr and Malone must of just not been able to use Henne's talents in the right way.
life is like a box of chocolates... and you got the Whizzo Quality Assortment
Everyone knew at the time that Henne was recruited for that system, had played in that system, had a proficiency for that system, and therefore would, all things being equal, improve. Henne was also young. Denard is a senior and has regressed as a passer--not had one bad game.
"Before I could pull the trigger, I was hit by lightning, and bitten by a cobra."
i'm not sure denard has regressed as a passer. i just think borges is calling more intermediate routes and check-downs, which obviously denard is not good at. i think denard's accuracy is better than it's ever been. it's just his decision making.
borges really needs to go back and watch the Neb and OSU games from last year. most of the passes were quick-hitters < 10 yds. denard completed a high % and this helped open up the run for he and fitz.
in fact, i think denard only completed one pass > 10 yds in the first half of the Neb game (a long TD to Hemingway, iirc).
I don't think that's accurate about the Neb and Ohio games last year. Denard actually completed a lot of downfield throws in those games. The TDs to Odoms and Hemingway against Ohio certainly were not quick hitters.
i reviewed the play-by-play of both games. Denard completed 1 pass in the 1st half against OSU > 10 yds (the TD by Hemingway - I mistakenly typed Neb).
Neb: Denard was 11-19 with 5 catches > 10 yds for the game
OSU: Denard was 14-17 with 5 catches > 10 yds for the game. Remember, these include YAC, so a few of those may have been quick-hitters.
My point is that Denard appears to be a competent passer when he throws the quick passes toward the outside. He seems to struggle when he has to go through progressions and ends up throwing passes over the middle (intermediate routes).
Off the top of my head, I know we completed at least four downfield throws of 20+ yards that game - two to Hemingway (one for a TD, one to midfield), one to Odoms (TD) and one to Dileo. Given that we only had 17 attempts (and I think all three incompletions were on downfield throws), our play-selection really wasn't slanted much in favor of shorter throws.
It's different though. Sometimes players or teams just play poorly and actually don't execute well. Borges is focusing on the wrong things though and isn't utilizing the best thing he's got, Denard. The play calling is terrible for the type of quarterback that we have.
Please tell me it is a joke that I've missed that Borges refuses to work with a QB coach. Because I can not fathom a world where Hoke has to tell Scott Loeffler that there isn't a job for him if he wants it. Or that if Henne or Navarre said they want to get into coaching that they wouldn't be hired on the spot as a QB coach.
Please tell me it is a joke that I've missed that Borges refuses to work with a QB coach.
Borges is our QB coach. It's common for at least one coordinator to also have positional duties, because the NCAA limits the number of assistant coaches you can have. Calvin Magee was also our QB coach when he was our OC.
Michigan is 2-2? I think that was the consensus of many honest Michigan fans before the 2012 season. Who cares how the sausage was made - those links are in front of you now, and they taste exactly how you thought they would.
There are definite signs of good things (that defense is, unsurprisingly, getting better after playing a NFL team and triple option team the first two weeks) and things that need to improve (which the team can figure out). I haven't yet seen any reason to stray from a 9 or 10 win prediction, especially given the tripe the rest of the B1G has been serving up this year.
I agree Magnus. I think what I'm getting at is that people with "history" watching the Irish play Michigan had the feeling Notre Dame was "due" in the series. While I think objectively the teams were evenly matched, this 36-year-old wasn't surprised to see a crazy storyline and adverse outcome Saturday night. Weird things happen in South Bend.
You're absolutely right though - by no means was it a homer call to predict Michigan.
Play action on 2nd down and goal is a horrid play call no matter who is on the field.
Getting in a run heavy formation and having Denard turn his back to the defense is not an effective play. Has Denard got the edge 1 time in the last 2 years on the boot leg?
Borges does not utilize Denard in the best way. Period. To what degree is debateable. Brian is not letting Denard off the hook for that game. He said he made poor plays. Brian;s post is more about the last 1.5 years and the lack of creativity in regards to Denard.
So there's a section of this post that's headed "Come on Denard." I know that there's a segment of the readership here that views Brian as an unmitigated Denard apologist (he's not), but read the whole post before you attack the guy (fergodsakes).
It wasn't a flawless gameplan, but it's easy to judge when you're wearing hindsight 20/20 glasses. Take away the bad throws and we win the game comfortably with that offensive plan. And, on the road at night, against ND...I'll take that every time.