Fisking The Internet On CAPA Comment Count

Brian

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we're going to have a picture of Kain Colter at this press conference from ALL THE ANGLES

BiSB's terrific post earlier today covers much of the ground I wanted to, except from a lawyer who actually knows what he's talking about. I did want to put my two cents in, because approximately 74% of the comments I've read in the aftermath of the NLRB's decision make me want to find the person and shake them, shouting something along the lines of "HAVE YOU EVER MADE A COHERENT ARGUMENT IN YOUR GODDAMNED LIFE?!?"

So let's address these things. These are actual MGoBlog user comments. I'd say I'm sorry if I picked yours, but I'm not.

THIS IS THE END

I could definitely see Northwestern arguging that football athletes shouldn't get special treatment over all the other sports, etc and just dropping it the way Chicago did.

So… your theory is that Northwestern will drop football, get kicked out of the Big Ten, lose about 99% of their athletics revenue, and pay for its nonrevenue sports out of its own pocket because the football players have the right to collectively bargain. The people making this decision will be throwing away countless hours of free marketing, making their school less attractive to prospective students, and essentially firing themselves.

Seems likely.

Wow. Stupid. So long college sports as we know it.

"So long the Olympics as we know it." –this guy, 1992

No way is the third string back-up tackle as valuable as Jake Ryan or Devin Gardner. Why should a guy who contributes little to victory receive the same level of pay that a Gardner does?

Also, this will basically destroy the MAC  and other small schools. They don't have the budget to negotiate anything. I foresee schools dropping football or going to non-scholarship.

This is an argument that the future system might be unfair because it treats all athletes the same when some of them are worth more than others. I'm sure if we think about this very hard for a very long time I can come up with a flaw in that.

The MAC may not be able to provide the same sort of financial support that bigger schools can. This will undoubtedly crater their recruiting, which features many head-to-head wins against the Big Ten.

Won't this cripple many athletic departments and force them to drop sports? Perhaps not Michigan, but schools of lesser stature?

Maryland recently dropped several sports.

There are broad swathes of schools playing NCAA sports, and most of them are going to be completely unaffected by this decision. To be an employee you have to be involved in economic activity, and most NCAA schools are spending, not making money. The top and vast bottom are going to be fine. There is a middle tier of schools that face a choice between narrowing their focus to keep up with the Joneses and abandoning their dreams of being Louisville.

The problem is: they already face that choice. They run with a D-I minimum of sports and throw their resources at the revenue generators. This won't "cripple" them any more than their already short resources do.

Maryland dropped several sports because it was run by an idiot, a problem orthogonal to this discussion.

if this decision stands they will have just walked tens of thousands of student athletes right out of college sports.  title IX will be effectively gutted.   your daughter that wanted to row/field hockey/basketball, etc, kiss that good bye.  your son who wanted to play a sport that really doesn't generate revenue, say gymnastics, wrestling, and track,   well that's all done too.  nice job [insert expletives here].

There are 311 Division II institutions that make zero money on sports. There are 449 D III institutions. There are hundreds—thousands—of D-II and D-III field hockey, rowing, basketball, gymnastics, wrestling, and track programs. The chance that a high revenue program that has to deal with a player union is forced to drop sports is very low, and the overall number of opportunities to participate in intercollegiate athletics is not likely to change in any significant way.

And even if it did, I don't think there's any compelling reason to privilege generally wealthy nonrevenue athletes over the general student population and especially the relatively poor and underprivileged revenue athletes.

IT'S ALREADY FAIR

Michigan%20Wolverines%2016%20Denard%20Robinson%20Navy%20Blue%20Embroidered%20NCAA%20Jersey[1]

The athletes do not draw in the money. The name does. Michigan Football brings in the revenue. I didn't watch Denard any more closely than Sheridan. I don't watch Derrick Walton more often than Darius Morris. Have you ever said you were going to stop tuning in because a player left? Probably not, so it's not the players drawing in the money. The coaches play a big role, because they determine which players get recruited and how well the team performs (more fans watched Beilein than Amaker, for example).

Lots of players come and go every year, and the amount of revenue is not affected.

The hell you say. Traffic patterns during the last two football seasons here certainly indicate a correlation between success and engagement, and while football teams have a pile of goodwill built up all you have to do is look at ticket availability at Minnesota versus Wisconsin, or Northwestern, or Purdue, or Indiana to get an idea that the players make the name over a long period of time. If Michigan had a string of 3-9 seasons over the last 30 years, Michigan Stadium would be a decaying half-full wreck.

Meanwhile, I note you compared Derrick Walton to… uh… Darius Morris. I will expect a full report on the details of Gavin Groninger's career by Tuesday, in exacting detail.

So a 4 year full ride scholarship is not getting paid? This concept is a mockery of the system.

It may or may not be a 4 year full ride, and that full ride is not like getting an engineering degree (most of the time—I see you, Jordan Morgan). Many of the kids coming in are under-prepared to get a meaningful degree and have to spend 50 hours a week year round on their chosen sport. For many the value of their degree is approximately zero, both in terms of vocational knowledge gained and their ability to apply that to a real world job.

This is not because they did not "take advantage of their opportunity." It is because the opportunity was to play football and the rest of it was window dressing.

Also, CAPA was arguing that the scholarship is payment. The issue is that these players are compensated, making them employees, and the NCAA illegally colludes to cap compensation at a certain amount. That is not legal.

And the system is a mockery of you, man.

It's not free labor, they pay them in the form of education, meals, $1,200 month stipend, etc. Nobody is telling these kids that they can't go to college unless they play football, they can take the normal route and get student loans and be a normal student. That's what grinds my gears about the whole thing.

They are telling them that this is the deal, take it or leave it, if you want to get to the NFL. And oh by the way as you're embarking on your probably-failed quest to have an NFL career that's going to be about 3 years long even if you do make it, we are going to make millions of dollars off your single outstanding skill.

It is ludicrous that everyone in college is all about getting theirs and we bristle at the idea of the players doing the same. Any moral high ground the NCAA had—and they did try to cap assistant pay back in the day—is 20 years gone.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE DETAILS

IRS

I wonder what cut the IRS will get from these Unionized employees

lets say 50000 a year for tuition, food, room, board, books and everything else

thats 50000 x .25 since thats 25 percent tax bracket = 12500 taxes

12500 x 4 = 50000 taxes owed

good luck kid

This was capably addressed by BiSB: the NLRB has nothing to do with the IRS and vice versa, and even if it did the way the law is currently written athletic scholarships should already be taxable. If anything, negotiating a provision that the scholarship still applies even if the player leaves the team puts the non-taxability of scholarship on more solid footing. Meanwhile, room and board money is already taxed.

What happens when needs aren't met? Strike? What happens then?

What prevents players from sitting down now? 

If the medical benefits, etc. that these players want really comes to fruition, what is that going to do to ticket prices?  The schools are going to try to come up with some sort of calculations as to what these new benefits to the players is going to cost and almost certainly try to figure out where the money is going to come from to fund the new player benefits.  Odds are it's going to be the consumer (ie - fans) that are going to be asked to help fund the new player benefits.

If ticket prices had any relationship to the cost of supporting the athletic department they would not have quadrupled in real dollars since 2000. If NCAA athletic departments were not trying to wring out every last dime they can already, Rutgers and Maryland would not be joining the Big Ten next year to the outrage of 90% of current Big Ten fans. If athletic departments could not afford to shift some of their money towards the athletes under their care, coaching salaries would not have gone up 70% since 2006.

Does this mean that Northwestern can fire all of their underperforming players and replace them with better ones now?

THEY CAN ALREADY DO THIS. HAVE YOU EVER READ THIS BLOG?

Comments

robpollard

March 27th, 2014 at 3:01 PM ^

I need to know, exactly, how this will lead to the 'demise' of college football.

Is U of M, OSU, MSU, etc going to drop football now that they might need to direct a few extra million directly to the players, in the form of stipends and or better health care, instead of buiding ever bigger and fancier edifices for non-revenue sports and giving extra $$$ to coaches & admins of all stripes?

The fact is, just like with baseball players in the 1970s, players deserve a larger cut of the literally billions of dollars floating through the sports landscape. Just b/c you feel a scholarship, room & board and academic support is "enough" doesn't make it so. It should be up to the workers (and that's what they are -- workers) to negotiate with their employers to figure that out.

 

funkywolve

March 27th, 2014 at 3:12 PM ^

Agree, I don't think this will affect these schools, and others like them, much.  The schools that are going to feel the cost of the extra benefits are going to be the mid majors - MAC, Mountain West, Conference USA, etc. 

I'm in my early 40's and I wouldn't be surprised if during my lifetime there comes a time when you have the big boys (40-50, maybe 60 schools) in one division and your mid majors of today are in a different division when it comes to football.

robpollard

March 27th, 2014 at 3:22 PM ^

There is no law that requires EMU, WMU, etc to play Div-1A football. They already are being bled dry trying to keep up with the Phil Knight's (oops, I mean Oregon) and T Boone Pickens' (oops, I mean Ok State) of the world. This ruling is just another (large) pebble on the scale that already is heavily, heavily tilted to favor "BCS" teams.

My desire to watch UM football will not be changed one iota that if instead of playing EMU, Miami (YTM), Ball State, we played BCS schools instead. And that assumes cross-division games would be banned, which they are not now (hello, App State!) so I'm not sure why they would be in the future.

jmblue

March 27th, 2014 at 3:48 PM ^

I don't think you'd just see schools drop down to I-AA or D-II.  Those levels give out scholarships, too.  I think you'd see a lot of small schools simply drop football as a varsity sport.

Would that affect Michigan?  Maybe not so much in the short term, but it's not real healthy for a sport to be losing programs.  Fewer total programs can mean less general interest.  There are a lot of people at MAC schools who have their own school rooting interest and then a bigger school interest as well (U-M, MSU, OSU, etc).  But if they don't have football on their own campus to see in person, maybe they lose interest in it in general, and don't go on to become diehards of the big school, either.

 

robpollard

March 27th, 2014 at 4:01 PM ^

The NFL has 32 teams. Interest in it is sky high.

If Div-1A all of sudden went from 110 programs to 60 programs, why would interest in those 60 programs (UM, OSU, USC, etc) go down? There is now less product, and that scarcer product is now (on avg) of higher quality -- I would think interest would go up, if anything.

Plus, as stated, Div-II and Div-III schools are unaffected by this. That's still hundreds of programs.

What truly matters in terms of wide-spread interest is at the high school level. That feeds into college, which feeds into the NFL.

 

Muttley

March 27th, 2014 at 3:39 PM ^

The NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL have all come to an equilibrium of about 30 teams.

I think some of the restrictions on the earning power of individual athletes should be removed.  This will very likely lead to a consolidation of the profitable enterprises and the non-profitable teams as the best athletes seek the places that they can do best for themselves, now that they have skin in the revenue stream generation.

The current ~120 team FBS setup (does it have a new name?) is not compatable with player participation in the revenue streams.  The Cinderella Boise State or Northern Illinois programs will no longer be close enough to the Big Boys to take home the prize every now and then.

Whether that is a "good thing" or a "bad thing", it is beyond anyone's control.  Foremost, I think some of the most egrigious restrictions on athlete's1 earning power should be removed.  Then let the new equilibrium find itself.

1 I placed the apostrophe before the s to indicate that each athlete has his/her own individual earning power, as opposed to collective ownership.

jmblue

March 27th, 2014 at 3:34 PM ^

Pro sports teams are their own individual businesses.  They don't have to support some 20 money-losing sister sports franchises, like a typical college football program does.  If you cut into the profitability of college football, does the house of cards stand up?  Granted, some non-revenue sports might be first on the chopping block, but a football program isn't cheap to maintain, either, and often requires a school to seriously bend its academic qualifications (and then bend the rules further to keep them eligible).  And then you have the safety concerns.  There are plenty of people arguing right now that big-time college football isn't worth it, and that's without players being compensated.

What will probably happen is that a lot of MAC-level schools will drop football at some point (I don't think EMU makes money on football right now), and the big schools will accept further scholarship restrictions.  They'll keep playing, but it will be with 60-70 guys on scholarship to save costs.  This will also aid in Title IX compliance as schools seek to drop some women's sports (also to save costs).  The number of non-revenue sports teams will drop at most schools.  Altogether, there will be fewer scholarship athletes overall.

 

 

 

 

biakabutuka4ever

March 27th, 2014 at 1:22 PM ^

Maybe the simplest solution would be for the players to be allowed to sign endorsements, etc.  

To me, that's the only exploitative part about the situation for the players.  Are they getting fully compensated for their worth?  No.  But there's no guarentee to that, and they are all free to quit at any time.

I also think 95% of us would trade spots with them, and I know my loan debt would.   

WolvinLA2

March 27th, 2014 at 1:25 PM ^

The problem is determining their worth.  We can all agree that they are not all worth the same, right?  How much is Devin Gardner worth?  And how much more is he worth than Blake Bars?  What about John Navarre?  He won football games, but everyone seemed to hate him.  Which one of those determines his worth?  

bronxblue

March 27th, 2014 at 2:44 PM ^

I don't think the value argument will be as tough as people think.  Heck, you could just treat starters vs. backups differently and I think you'd make most people happy.  Or pay them all the same, which would also work.  I don't think we need to introduce actuarial tables and jersey sales to make the system more fair and palpable for everyone.

WolvinLA2

March 27th, 2014 at 7:43 PM ^

You think that would be fine?  There are certainly problem with that though.  What happens to a guy who starts a few games?  What about two guys who split time evenly, but only one is the starter?  Do you now distinguish between a guy like Derrick Green last year, who was a back up, and Blake Bars, who was as well?  

bronxblue

March 27th, 2014 at 9:56 PM ^

Fine, based on playing time.  On a per-snap basis, that's how much you get paid.  Like hours worked.  Performance bonuses for TDs and defensive turnovers if you want.  This isn't that hard, really.  And I like to think that if a couple of dudes on a blog can come up with some viable options in minutes, a bunch of really smart negotiators and representatives for these unions could do so as well.

And let's not act like money would suddenly destroy the camraderie of a team.  Guys compete for starting spots all the time, and there is animosity and the like without destroying the bond that forms with the players.  Teams would survive and, dare say, thrive in some circumstances.  My point is, let it happen and see how it plays out.  If it destroys college sports, then so be it.  It's not like the current system is some amazing paragon of virtue.

WolvinLA2

March 27th, 2014 at 7:40 PM ^

That's an entirely different argument though.  The big argument being had is "these programs bring in so much money and they should share it with those who generated it (the players)."  If you only allow them to go earn it from their likeness, they are getting no cut of the big time revenue the schools are generating.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's a completely different argument altogether.

funkywolve

March 28th, 2014 at 12:06 AM ^

you get someone like Phil Knight head over to Oregon and ask the players if they want to do a quick commercial and photo shoot for Nike and get paid some serious cash.  Word starts spreading that if you go to Oregon you're going to be making a nice chunk of change. 

To me it opens up the pandora's box of rich boosters trying to out do those at another school to try and get the best recruits.

All Day

March 27th, 2014 at 1:33 PM ^

I think there are definitely more issues than just that. Likenesses are just the most obscene form of the exploitation. Some issues I would definitely have issue with if I were one of these kids:

 

  • Travel: Being labeled a "student athlete" when my opportunities to actually go to class and study are affected by TV slots and other issues. There's also those terrible arrangements for flights and busses, as recently noted by Steve Fisher.
  • Contracts: The complete bullshit that exists in the form of the contracts these kids sign vs the adults. Coaches have no actual ties to their contracts because some rich booster can just pay the buy out, while kids are stuck at a school with some jackoff that uses a system that doesn't benefit that player (or any variation of new coach).
  • Which brings me to: Or SEC oversigning practices. Which basically can happen anywhere.
  • Health: Kids are very much putting their health and happiness on the line to benefit the universities bottom lines. Extending health coverages to cover some of those post-college expenses might be a nice gesture.

jmblue

March 27th, 2014 at 3:24 PM ^

The endorsement issue won't fly with smaller schools.  The big, rich schools will use their boosters to create endorsement opportunities for athletes.  Smaller schools won't be able to compete.  (Granted, this is arguably going on right now, but is officially against the rules.)

 

DowntownLJB

March 27th, 2014 at 3:44 PM ^

I've long been thinking that the compensate for use of likeness/endorsement type system would be a good step for college athletes... but then I do wonder, if these athletes are signing contracts on these endorsements or signing appearances, who represents them in the contract negotiations?  If they have an agent help them with the contracts, how far does that agent relationship go?  If the schools provide consultant/agents to help the athletes with the contracts, are they really on a fair playing field?  If no one helps them, they definitely aren't on a fair playing field.  If they're part of a union, does the union have reps who help with contract negotiation?  

Muttley

March 27th, 2014 at 3:57 PM ^

True, but so what?

If the athletes are (IMO fairly) given skin in the revenue streams, then there will be consequences and a new equilibrium.

The property rights of the individual players should be defended.  (Appearances in TV ads, etc.)  Trying to prevent the overall system from adjusting to a new equilibrium is like trying to fight gravity.

BTW, it might benefit some select women athletes greatly.

Wendyk5

March 27th, 2014 at 1:22 PM ^

I honestly would have preferred a word other than "union."  It seems to me that workers who unionize are trying to protect themselves from the tyrannical boss man. Their collective motive is themselves, as individuals, and their work is completely self-motivated - more money, better treatment so they can go home, as individuals, and have a better life. 

 

Nothing wrong with that.....as it pertains to a job.....but I have always enjoyed college football because historically, these players are supposed to be playing for their school, and what their school represents. And I have bought into that, Bo-style, 100%. When you leave here, you'll play for a contract, a paycheck, etc, etc...you will never again play for a team. 

 

I want these players to have a seat at the table and be able to advocate for themselves when it comes to medical care, how their images are used, perhaps even for money in the future. These are essentially adults who should have a say in what happens to them. But using the word "union" opens the door very wide for college football to become a conventional job, and not a team sport anymore. 

 

Bottom line - how does the concept of team survive unionization? 

morepete

March 27th, 2014 at 1:39 PM ^

Did you write this post with the explicit goal of getting Brian to post it in an updated version of this column? Following your logic here, professional sports would not be able to exist, because players get paid different amounts, and they're also in unions.

How can the concept of team survive unionization?

I continue to shake my head at union becoming a dirty word in the state of Michigan. It makes me sad. Because the leadership at the Big Three have more responsibility than any of the unions for what happened to Detroit and Flint and Saginaw, but the unions get the blame.

Wendyk5

March 27th, 2014 at 2:25 PM ^

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm saying there is a difference between a worker in a company and a player on a college team, and the difference is motivation and intent. A worker's primary goal is to provide for himself, whereas a player on a college team - at least as I have laid it out, and how it has been historically - is to play for the team and his school. A union separates the workers/players from the owners/athletic department (and coaches). My question is, if this separation exists, how does the team survive? How does Pat Fitzgerald bring everyone together to work as a unit when some of those members are in disagreement with "management"? 

 

I see the NFL as purely an entertainment business. But college football hasn't reconciled the business side with the "playing for the team" side. I'd imagine there are plenty of people on this board who watch college sports for the same reason I do: for the sentimentality of team.  

bjk

March 27th, 2014 at 2:37 PM ^

a tension between the school-spirit aspect of sports and the opportunity that this created for commodification and monetization. Fielding Yost epitomizes both sides of this duality and Michigan Stadium, built in 1929, is a monument to it. The NCAA was all about an iron-fisted standard of late-nineteenth century poses of amateurism for the "scholar athlete" while encouraging third-world style kleptocratic profiteering in every other aspect of the business of college sports. The pretence of purity has collapsed under the accumulated weight of decades of profiteering cynicism (bowl system, etc.). Things won't go on the same way.

Erik_in_Dayton

March 27th, 2014 at 2:35 PM ^

It could put people like Coach Hoke into awkward situations at times, but FWIW I don't think it will have much effect.  My guess is that schools will respond to player demands in a mostly uniform way, so Coach Hoke will be very far removed from the decision-makers whom the players are trying to influence.  I've always seen coaches/managers as being borderline irrelevant during labor strife in pro sports.  They are on the management side, but they aren't making decisions, so (it seems) player animosity isn't directed at them even during moments of heated disagreement. 

WolvinLA2

March 27th, 2014 at 1:38 PM ^

It won't the first time, at least not for me.  It might for someone else, and it might for me if it becomes a regular thing.  If this becomes a "if you don't agree with Brian you will be mocked on the front page" type of place, I'm sure those people will find other places to go. And I'm sure the content won't attract the same number of new viewers.

WolvinLA2

March 27th, 2014 at 2:33 PM ^

You don't think we're customers?  Even if you don't think clicking a page counts as being a customer, how about buying things from the MGoStore or getting HTTV delivered?  

wile_e8

March 27th, 2014 at 2:40 PM ^

Yes. If the comments get overrun with people that can't make a logical argument if you spotted them the first 90%, worthwhile commenters are going to stop fighting that crap, the silent majority of visitors will have less reason to visit, and traffic will go down. This is pretty much the same reasoning behind the Great Commenter Purge of 2013, and the site is better off because of it.

All Day

March 27th, 2014 at 1:51 PM ^

Neither really. A lot of posts on various topics recently have featured opinions that have lack any sort of rational thought or factual basis, or just misinformation in general. Some examples:

  • VCU to Marquette is a lateral move.
  • Shaka Smart is a one trick pony and a bad coach!
  • Va. Tech doesn't care about basketball! Why would anyone coach there?

There have been others, but I've tried to move most of them out of my mind.

French West Indian

March 27th, 2014 at 1:24 PM ^

I'd be very careful about making assumptions about how the IRS will treat scholarships in the future.  Although college football revenues may be growing, government revenues are struggling.

US now spending 26% of available tax revenue just to pay interest.

Now that student athletes are to be reclassified as "employees" you can bet that the IRS will be looking to get a piece of the action.  And frankly, given the exploding costs of tuition in recent years (and thus the rising value of scholarships) it should probably come as a surprise that the IRS hasn't already been clamping down on this.

Death & taxes y'all.