instead of "exits." Oh well.
Good luck to them both.
abs, special teams: out
They're dropping like not-particularly-likley-to-see-the-field flies up in here. Over the last 12 hours, Scout's Andre Barthwell and Sam Webb broke the news that Michigan has lost Marvin Robinson and Mike Jones from the roster.
As departure impacts go, these are near the bottom of the scale. Both were going to be seniors (Jones was a fifth year) and neither was likely to see much playing time outside of special teams. These exits don't affect the two deep or the projected numbers for the 2014 class.
Robinson and his heralded abs never got a foothold on playing time, probably because he never shook the sort of bad habits that made him the primary culprit on that long run a couple of spring games ago where Robinson never figured out the WR he was trying to check was blocking him. He'll have to sit out a year and then he'll have one to play if he doesn't go I-AA. He probably should have moved to WLB immediately upon his arrival at M.
Jones meanwhile was not a touted recruit and never saw the field even when Michigan was scrambling at the WLB spot in 2011. His main on-field contribution was to pick up a dumb personal foul against OSU last year. (Off the field, he provided many opportunities for people to say WHO? because of a rapper who is now ironically forgotten, or at least would be if his song wasn't about his name.)
The main downside is if their absence forces Michigan to play a couple kids who otherwise would have redshirted on coverage teams and the like. If Ben Gedeon plays despite not projecting to the two deep at MLB either this year or next, I'll be a little cheesed off.
Michigan now has a slot for a hypothetical fifth-year QB transfer, say Arkansas transfer Brandon Mitchell. Mitchell who is reported to be considering Michigan along with NC State and three smaller schools. As per usual these guys are leaving to play, though, so unless Michigan can sell Mitchell on a slash role a la Gardner he'll probably head to a place he can at least compete for the starting QB job.
instead of "exits." Oh well.
Good luck to them both.
is such sweet sorrow......
Yesh, I didn't really think about the angle of potential burned (wasted) red-shirts due to special teams because of these losses. Really don't want to see another RJS thing where a player obviously needs a red-shirt and burns it playing special teams.
Farewell Mike Jones, we hardly knew ye.
Mike Jones biggest contribution was breaking his leg at the start of the 2010 season and thereby dooming that defense to being the worst defense in any sport at any level in any era.
Meh. I think we're in a position where we can stop worrying about kid's burning red-shirts on special teams. Jones and Robinson weren't contributing significantly, and if their departure means a true frosh plays special teams, so be it. It happens at nearly every program, whether they're rebuilding or not.
Adios, gents. I hope your experience was rewarding and meaningful to you in the long run.
Agree. Not having 5th years except along the lines and QB has to be part of the plan at this point. Go take a look at Bama's depth chart for 2013 and see how many RS anything are on it. http://alabama.rivals.com/cdepthtext.asp
I'm not so sure Alabama has to worry about RS/Number crunching. If they have a situation they need to work out, it *somehow* will.
I'm not going to throw stones here. I think its fine to give the firm handshake. Not renewing a 5th year makes sense if the 5th year isn't on the two-deep. I also think its fine to have a depth chart conversation and let the athlete make their own decision. Its disingenious though, to believe that conversation isn't intended to push an athlete out.
I am not a Bama apologist but there is a formula that ostensibly works. Recruit as many highly ranked kids as you can let playing time and pro draft attrition work itself out. Going into any season Bama doesn't know who is going to blow up and leave as an RS Soph or a Jr. Its a hell of a problem to have.
Also think there is a good chance that Gedeon is a more instinctive LB than RJS. He could very well be in the regular rotation this fall. Mattison has had no qualms about playing freshmen LB's.
I will best remember Mike Jones for the time he farted next to me when I was getting breakfast at West Quad. Probably not the greatest legacy to leave.
How "lasting" was the "legacy", if you "catch my drift"? /fartjoke
OMG, i think this might be the worlds first triple-double entendre, which according to my math, is equivalent to the (purely theoretical) sextuple entendre first proposed by Lord Ulysses Entendre in 1755.
1) How does losing a player that was 2nd on the depth chart not affect the 2-deep? (Robinson battled Wilson for the other starting safety spot the entire spring).
2) Why does everybody get so butt hurt by redshirts being burned for safeties/corners/linebackers etc? Does it really matter that much outside of the quarterback position? When you're recruiting and developing talent like we have the past few years, I guarantee 99% of these burnt red-shirts will have no effect on anything. Half the players will not be starters by the end of their careers (like Marvin Robinson), some of the rest will be stars and will potentially be ready to leave for the NFL after 4 years regardless of redshirting or not, and those players who you kinda wish had another year will probably just be replaced with a high 4-star/5 star player who everybody is eager to get on the field anyway.
It's really not a big deal unless some crazy injury bug or attrition hits one position and you wish that one guy was still around, and even when that happens, there is no way anybody could have accounted for that happening when the decision is first made, so why have a mental breakdown based on hindsight?
I completely agree with you about redshirts, for any position. 5th year guys contributing are largely a thing of the past.
However, I don't think Marvin Robinson was ever really competing with Wilson. I mean, they were competing but the results of the competition was a foregone conclusion. I also doubt he ever really was 2nd on the depth chart except on paper.
Robinson's problem was that he was not a legit safety. Meaning, he could not be trusted to play there. Being 2nd on the spring depth chart means nothing when all of the other competitors are young. Honestly, it's a good thing because he will no longer be taking up valuable practice snaps, as he has since arriving.
"Honestly, it's a good thing because he will no longer be taking up valuable practice snaps, as he has since arriving."
" I completely agree with you about redshirts, for any position. 5th year guys contributing are largely a thing of the past."
Fifth year seniors on this year's two deep:
Toussaint, Gallon, Lewan, Schofield, Q. Washington, Cam Gordon, Thomas Gordon, Brenodon Gibbons.
Throw in Devin and and Jake Ryan next year (from a totally depleted class).
It's still smart to redshirt as many kids as possible.. unless they are the best players at their position... like Peppers in 2014!
Guys on the lines should be exempt, because they redshirt often (near always on the OL). Of the other guys you listed, Toussaint and DG redshirted for injury purposes and Cam Gordon was a position switch. And although you're right that sometimes the guys who aren't ready to go as frosh end up making good players down the road, there are usually only a couple of them per class.
You are way too informed to really believe that DG's redshirt was for an "injury".He was slated for a redshirt but then everyone was up in arms that RR had wasted it. Then came his "back injury" after Tate came out of the doghouse... and methinks that 's why it took so long to get the extra eligibility confirmed.
Was agreeing that linemen and quarterbacks were good ideas to redshirt, but it wasn't as big a deal with everyone else. So DG would fall into that category too.
"those players who you kinda wish had another year will probably just be replaced with a high 4-star/5 star player who everybody is eager to get on the field anyway."
This seems to neglect depth. What if the high 4-star/5 star player beats out the veteran, who is the next man in. I'd like to be the veteran with playing experience.
Yeah, but presumably the way Hoke is building the team he will have signed 2-3 guys at that position in the classes after the 4/5 star I mentioned and those guys will be the guys competing to be 2nd on the depth chart the next season.
The problem we've had in recent memory is huge holes in recruiting classes where needs that had to be met were never met. That will not happen under Hoke because he seems to put an emphasis on taking exactly as many players as they need at each position. Hell, every time a player leaves at a particular position, the coaches seem to offer more players at that position until they get another one. This has happened numerous times the past couple years, and it makes your roster much more seamless.
Burned redshirts have come back to haunt us quite a bit in the past half decade or so, at a variety of positions.
Yeah, but it's much easier to say that after 2 coaching changes including a few recruiting classes (2005 and 2010) where half of the players were off the team by the end of their careers.
My whole point is that the stability and approach of Hoke as a coach makes this really a non-issue. For one, Hoke seems to put more emphasis on recruiting X number of players to a certain spot in a given year over just recruiting whoever he can get or waiting on higher ranked prospects. Secondly, when he takes those players, they are often pretty darn good and dedicated to getting better. Also, these players actually improve over time and seem ready to play by their 2nd or 3rd year.
Add all of this up and it doesn't really seem to matter all that much. In contrast, RR for instance had whole years where we took 1-2 OL or DT or signed 6 slot receivers etc. Eventually, it caught up with us. Look at the players Hoke has brought in just the last 2.5 classes. If you stack them up, it's a solid 2-3 deep just off 2.5 classes with every position covered. Huge difference.
It helps with recruiting and is a motivator for prospects to work hard as their first season approaches. Also puts more pressure on the upperclassmen because they have legit competition with the freshmen. And it allows coaches to put good talent on special teams. And redshirt years are wasted when a kid has a future injury and needs to sit out as an upperclassman. The trend is if a kid is able to make a legit contribution, the coaches will play him.
It is not all about the talent of the players. What about the value of senoir/veteran leadership?
How nice would it be to have Will Campbell, Craig Roh, and Denard Robinson back as an RB this year? How nice is it to have Jeremy Gallon and Quinton Washington back this year?
I realize that some special circumstances have made losing fourth year seniors hurt lately more than usual, but I still think that you should work on keeping a guy for five years, if you don't need him as a freshman, or if he can make minimal impact.
I'm not disagreeing at all. I hope we get to the point where we can redshirt every guy (well, not EVERY guy, but as many as possible) because an older more experienced player with similar talent is ahead of the guy redshirting.
The best way I can summarize my overall feelings on redshirting most positions is to say: when is the last time an Alabama fan complained about a senior burning his redshirt? Probably not too recently. I mean, they lost something like 7 draftees off their defense prior to last season and they were once again the best defense in the country. That's when you know it doesn't matter.
I think many people are experience redshirting players with ease in the video games and thinks the same logic applies to real life.
you can't just fill in your two deep and redshirt every other player on the roster which usually leads to the vast majority of the incoming class being redshirted? Damn!
J Walter Weatherman: And that's why you always write rap songs heavily featuring your own name.
I wonder if expectations Hoke puts on seniors, were a burden Marvin Robinson and Mike Jones were unwilling to embrace.
Redshirting the QBs, and OL/DL are most important because of the need for the QBs to allow the game to slow down for them and the Lineman so they can gain weight. I don't have a problem with them not Redshirting any other spots especially LB considering all the talent we have there.
Yup, QB and along the lines of scrimmage are areas where you tend to see little to no true freshman.
How many recruits are still remaining from the Rich Rod classes...including his recruits from the year he was relieved of his duties.
24 players remain from the 2009-2011 recruiting classes that were recruited by Rodriguez. Including the 22 from 2009, the 27 from 2010, and his 10 verbals from 2011 before getting fired, that's a total of 59 possible. So that's a little less than 50% of his commits/signees still remaining.
I know you were answering the guy's question, but it doesn't really seem fair to lump 2009 recruits who graduated (e.g. Denard) in with unplanned departures...
True. Denard, Roh, Campbell, Hawthorne, and Vincent Smith have already graduated, so I guess it's 24 out of a possible 54
How many year(s) are we away from an all Hoke team? Probably 2-3? Besides Gardner, I would guess though that after this year there wouldn't be many of RR recuits contributing too much.
Some members of the 2011 class are Rodriguez's, so a few will probably last through the 2015 season. So it will be 2016 before it's an all-Hoke team.
For some reason I didn't even think about guys like Countess, Morgan or Clark or JMFR. There may be a couple others I forgot as well, but these were pretty decent RR guys.
Hope you land on your feet & you find greener pastures.
to both of these gentlemen. May you find playing time wherever you land.
fan's standpoint. He came in with very good athletic ability and seemingly well-suited to be a starting safety some day. But as is the case sometimes with highly rated recruits, they don't live up to the hype. Physically, he seemed good enough to compete, but other aspects of his game just weren't cuttng it on the pratice field I guess. Good luck to him and Mr. Jones however.
They were going to be seniors... So why not stay and get your UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN degree? If you still want playing time after that, you got a post grad year to try to change people's minds without waiting a year (that you're sitting anyway) or dropping the competition level.
He has his degree and 1 more year of eligibility, he's leaving as a grad student transfer who can play immediately.