Please, no more.
mesmerism! presidential assassinations! circuses on fire!
From a very strange post I put together about THJ and Jared Sullinger screaming at each other.
Michigan's NBA exodus picks up a second member as Tim Hardaway, Jr., has decided to put his name in. Hardaway is probably not a first round pick, but probably wouldn't have been a first-rounder next year anyway. It makes some sense for him to go. It wasn't a slam dunk like Burke; it wasn't a "really?" decision like Manny Harris and, to a lesser extent, Darius Morris.
This isn't exactly unexpected. While the loss of a potential senior captain is a blow, this site's post about what the roster looks like next year had already taken his absence into account without damaging the outlook too badly:
In the Hardaway departure scenario, give or take five minutes here and there:
PG: Walton (25) / Spike (15)
SG: Stauskas (30) / LeVert (10)
SF: Irvin (25) / LeVert (15)
PF: GRIII (35) / Morgan (5)
C: McGary(30) / Morgan (5) / Horford (5)
There are worse things than handing over one of Michigan's wing spots to a five-star freshman and a hopefully-improving Caris LeVert. Lose McGary or Robinson—or, ugh, both—and serious dents start showing up.
Let us all remember Tim by the "tim hardaway jr photo spectacularrr" tag, and save a thought for your favorite Michigan basketball photographer.
Please, no more.
IMO they will either both be back or both will turn pro. If they come back UM should be a top 10 team, if they go pro, UM will be a fringe top 25 team and probably middle of the pack BIG team.
My gut reaction is that both GR3 and McGary will turn pro. The run in the NCAA helped their draft stock, a price of success, unfortunitely for UM hoop fans.
Both are very raw players right now in regard to their NBA skills and very much need at least another year developing their games. GRIII badly needs to add some strength too. Neither of them come from families who seem to need the money either. I'm guessing they will listen to the advice of their parents, former coach, and Coach Beilein and stay.
Hopefully. However, IF they can get picked in the lottery (GR3 is projected around there now) based on nothing more than potential, then I have no problem with that decision.
If they're outside of the lottery though, guys give it another run with Irvin/Walton/Donnal and then go in the lottery next year!!
Sad to see him go.
I'll always remember him as the kid who exploded for 20 in the 2nd half at home against Michigan State his freshman year (the year of the sweep)
Gives me chills when I watch him knock down those 3's with Dickie V going NUTS!
"OOOOOH HE'S FEELIN IT! HE'S FEELIN IT MR. TIRICOOO! LITTLE JUNIOR! LOOK AT HIM FILLIN' IT UP LIKE HIS DADDY USED TO DO! This is UNBELIEVABLE!"
Someone needs to put together a THJ career highlight tape too. When you take out all the terrible shoots Timmy took, he has some awesome moments in his career
But really, his highlight tape would be pretty awesome because when Timmy was hot, he was NBA jam hot
From the university that brought you the Michigan Hockey Summer, now for the first time... The Michigan Basketball Summer!
A good way to put it. I can't completely be excited for him because he's going on to bigger and better things, but on the other hand I can't really blame him. Just wish him luck and hope it works out best for him. And can't say I would have done any differently.
Just me, or does this meen LeVert needs to be the most improved over the off-season (including incoming frosh)? A little "anxious" right now thinking about 25+ minutes a game for him and being relied upon heavily.
Michigan is going to need more from LeVert and Stauskas than they got this year, though I think there's reason to believe they'll get it. Irvin will (obviously) be a key piece as well - he could be as good as Gary Harris was this year - and GRIII (knock on wood) could play some minutes at the three too.
The last time someone declared for the NBA draft, we were compensated with a 5* WR. Thus, I'm expecting similar compensation for THJ going pro.
but you beat me to it. With THJ declaring, does that mean Jabrill Peppers will commit today? Or does the quality of commit have to match up with the quality of the guy declaring for the NBA draft? In other words, when Burke, the national player of the year declared, we ended up with a high end prospect in Drake Harris. Since THJ is only a borderline first rounder this means we would end up with someone like Winovich instead of Peppers. I don't think I like that tradeoff too much.
Either way, best of luck to THJ.
Damn! He made a very understandable decision, but it would have been nice to have him back next year.
Regardless, thanks for everything Tim, you were a lot of fun to root for.
Now to keep my fingers crossed about Mitch and GRIII.
I would take 5 of Walton's minutes at PG and give them to Spike, then take 5 of LeVert's minutes at SG and give them to Walton.
Spike and Walton are going to play together some. I think 5 minutes is appropriate.
If you want to take 5 more minutes from LeVert at SF can give them to Irvin, I can see that as well.
Lastly, it won't happen, but I think we should take 5 minutes from GRIII at PF and give them to Horford.
This would look like:
PG: Walton (20) / Spike (20)
SG: Stauskas (30) / LeVert (5) / Walton (5)
SF: Irvin (30) / LeVert (10)
PF: GRIII (30) / Morgan (5) / Horford (5)
C: McGary(30) / Morgan (5) / Horford (5)
Funny how we all call everyone by their last name, and Spike is always "Spike."
(Yes, I know we say GRIII, but you know what I mean!)
A pleasure watching him grow over the years, I think he may have been our most improved player this year. We'll miss his leadership.
That said, this was expected, we'll be fine. GO BLUE! Good luck Tim.
Well that's the award he won at the banquet, so it seems that the team/coaching staff agrees with you
But I certainly (obviously) agree with it. His attitude, shot selection, ball handling, defense and overall game improve more than anyone in my eyes. Funny thing is Burke was probably #2.
who are the leaders next year? Morgan and......?
It was fantastic to watch you play over the last 3 years, wish you a long and happy career in the NBA
Good luck THJ! Hopefully GR3 and McGary are both going to stay, but I've felt like GR3 was NBA-destined from day 1. All is not lost if both of those guys return. And by all is not lost, I mean we still stack up wtih everyone but possibly State in the B10
You may leave Ann Arbor, but Ann Arbor will never leave you.
Best of luck always, THJ and Trey, on the off chance you're reading this. You repped The University with class and aplomb and while we're sad you're leaving, we were blessed that you were here in the first place. Have a long and happy career in the NBA - hell, the work you did in college will wind up being 100000% more relevant to your job then most of us can say.
I mean, come on. You're talking about a kid leaving early to be what.. a mid-to-late second round pick? To go play in Europe? Since when is this an understandable move?
I'll say it -- it's foolish. Twenty years ago everybody would have said the same. I don't understand why people continue to say he couldn't have gone higher next year. The kid is 21 years old and supposedly has a great work ethic. I just don't understand this move at all, unless he is just desperate to make some amount of money, somewhere, now. And doesn't care if that somewhere turns out to be across one ocean or another.
If you're 21, and you're going to be (perhaps lucky) to be a second round pick, leaving school early for the NBA is a terrible idea. I don't see how it can be viewed any other way. Personally, I don't think Hardaway is an NBA player at all, but he definitely had a better chance to be one after another year at U-M. If you think leaving school early to go play in Europe is a good idea, then well, good on you. But I can't say I've ever heard that opinion before.
Sorry for raining on the parade; I see you get voted down here for giving an opinion that isn't all rosebuds and rainbows. I'm a U-M grad, I bleed with this team as much as anybody here I assure you, but that doesn't mean that our basketball players can do no wrong.
If you all want to defend leaving our school early when you are unlikely to even MAKE an NBA roster, feel free. I strongly disagree with you, and that's fine. But if you feel the need to vote down and attempt to bury my opinion because it isn't the company line, then I will save myself the trouble of posting here at all. And probably be better for it.
Thanks for understanding.
Thanks. The moniker is from a well known piece of literature; you probably missed it after a fellow blogger voted it down.
school. I'm quite confident that I read much more than you do.
1. Why you so mad?
2. It makes sense for him to leave now, he is coming off a season where they played for the NCAA championship, which raises his stock a bit, and the whole nation saw what he can do if he gets hot. His stock wouldnt be any higher next year.
Lets say he comes back and the team does not do as well, gets knocked out first round..etc, probably doesnt look to great for his stock. He is riding high right now and needs to take advantage. That and he is 100% healthy right now he should go.
Why is he wrong for taking the chance to live his dream?
I'm not mad, I'm just not determined to praise every decision he makes for no good reason. I do appreciate you actually attempting to wield logic, however.
I just completely disagree that he is "riding high" right now in terms of his NBA stock. Speculation is that he may not even be drafted. He is somewhere in the second round on most boards, which makes him an underdog to even make a roster. If the whole nation saw him play in the final four, well that probably didn't help him much, did it?
NBA people care about a lot more than how your team does.. like Noel for instance, who is likely the number one pick. If you think he might be worse next year, then how do you think his next year will shape up as a professional?! The idea that a 21 year old kid can't help his stock with a year of hard work at improving at basketball is, frankly, stupid.
He can take his chance, sure. But like I said, I've never encountered so many people praising a college player for leaving early when he's an underdog to even make an NBA roster. If you ask me, it's a bad move for Michigan, and a bad move for THJ, and I bet most of you would be saying exactly the same thing if he wore a different jersey.
I mostly agree. Sure the team did really well, but the entire country saw him as a streaky shooter, and I guess a half decent defender. He put in a lot of work improving from last year to this year, and there was no reason he couldn't put in the same amount of effort to improve on his shooting consistency, driving to the basket, ballhandling, rebounding, defense, etc.
If he played like a leader on next years team and made some improvements in the aforementioned areas, without a national player of the year on the team soaking up the attention of the media, he could have earned a spot in the first round of the draft. The way it stands now, I also have a hard time imagining him making an NBA roster.
Love the guy and wish him well, but like D Morris, I can't say I think this decision seems to be in his best interest.
I sort of agree as well. All the best, THJ, still wish him doing well in the NBA, but I think in some years later, may be well after his playing career, when looking back, he'd prefer to stay one more year in college, to be the senior to lead the team, and enjoy the life as a senior in UM. I totally understand why he decided to go pro now, as that's his dream, and also just came off from NC game appearance. he may think that the chance of going back to NC next year is low after Burke is leaving, so he decided to go now.
Just that reading from lots of pro players from UM after retiriing, like Marlin Jackson some days ago, seems everybody would love to go back and enjoy college life. Given that THJ can't go better than 2nd round at best, he'll probably still make to NBA after his senior year, but at least he can get his degree, and enjoy his last year in UM. I don't think his NBA career will be much different from going pro this year or going pro next year.
Btw, is he an example of staying in college after his freshman year hurt his stock? If he was an one and done, he probably went in 1st round that year. He stayed for 2 more years and now a border 2nd rounder. We should not raise this example to GRIII and McGary.
is on the bench for the Lakers making mucho bucks....he made like 1milly this year. Ya he is not playing much but he is making his game better every day with the best players in the world around him.
I think Tim would take that. Learn from the best and get better.
there is a difference, a huge difference, between praise and support.
I see a lot of people supporting him. And that is a good thing.
I think I wrote something on here somewhere else about who the fuck cares whether you, or me, like the decision. Cause who the fuck cares? I support him because he is a michigan man and he is doing what he thinks is best for him. I say good luck...
You sound like mike valenti when he gets down on detroit fans for not being harder on their local athletes. I don't think we need to be hard, I think we need to accept what is in front of us and pull out the silver linings playbook. And that is how it should be...
Tim's draft projection (and prospects). He is anywhere from a low first round to a mid second--though with the number declaring his projection won't likely improve. But that is what the camps are for--though it would be nice if players could still go to the camps and then withdraw from the draft. Tim would have projected mid-second round if he left last year--so he didn't really improve his position by staying this year. Who is to say he will improve it by staying another year--or that he won't improve more in a professional environment? Unlike high school kids who may be relying on questionable advisers, Tim's are as good as you can get.
Tim is certainly no sure thing, but he's earned the opportunity, and he has given us 3 great years (effort, even if you question his consistency). The complaints with your opinion are that you present so certain, so negative and so personal.
Yes my thoughts as well...
Why couldn't THJ improve his game with another year?
He's just quite honestly NOT an NBA player at this time!
His passion, his energy, his occasional scoring bursts will be missed at Michigan... they will not earn playing time at the professional level in this country, however.
BAD decision - and I'm assuming wondering if he did it for need of coin was a joke?!
What about THJ screams MOAR POTENTIAL?
I see it in McGary, GRIII, LeVert and maaaybe Stauskas. But no other player on the team (including Burke and THJ) was going to get THAT much better.
No one was going to do what McGary did at the end of the year. What LeVert or GRIII could do next year.
You can't be any more confident that he was going to turn into a 1st or 2nd team All-American than you can be weary that he would have struggled without Burke and being the focal point.
Why is Hardaway not an NBA player at this time? Do you believe Ben McLemore from Kansas is an NBA player? Most expect McLemore to be taken #1 or #2 in the draft. McLemore and Hardaway have very similar stat lines (and similar games):
Hardaway (6'6", 205 lbs., age 21) - 14.5 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 2.4 APG, 44% FG, 37% 3FG
McLemore (6'5", 190 lbs., age 21) - 15.9 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 2.0 APG, 50% FG, 42% 3FG
I'm not saying Hardaway is as good as McLemore or should be taken as high as him, but I don't understand why so many people are making comments about him not being an NBA talent.
I don't think he has an NBA-quality handle to play the guard position. Whenever he was pressed I was always nervous and he always looked shaky even when he handled it. His drives would give me the same feeling -- sometimes out of control and on the verge of a turnover. I'm actually not sure what his turnover numbers are like, this is just my personal opinion based on the eye test. But his shaky ball handling is, to me, the biggest thing that will prevent him from being an NBA player. You don't survive at guard in the NBA without being very sure with the ball.
I also think he will struggle to defend stronger players in the NBA, and his offense was very inconsistent. I don't know that he has ever displayed NBA 3-point range as Trey Burke has, for instance. To play shooting guard in the NBA you also have to be able to flat-out score, and I just don't think he fits this definition. He's a streaky scorer but on many nights he was close to invisible on offense.
I'm certainly open to being wrong, and I'd love to see him do well. But it's not just me questioning his ability to make an NBA roster, it is me and everybody who rates college players professionally. It's just not an understandable move, in my opinion, and it's not something that I feel like praising as a Michigan fan. It hurts us for no good reason. It sounds like, based on his comments today and those of others, he didn't even hear anything encouraging from the advisory committee or anywhere else. I think he had his mind made up a long time ago, and wasn't going to let reason stand in his way.
On the plus side, I don't think we will miss him much. But at some point, you have to have some seniors that play if you expect to be great. At the current rate, I'm not sure how we're ever going to get there.
We didn't have any seniors that play and we went to the national title game. What ARE you talking about? That's not great?
Oh, you're one of THOSE people....
Says here that McLemore is 20: http://nbadraft.net/players/ben-mclemore
Only a year, so not a big deal by itself.
Look at those numbers, though. 50 vs. 44 and 42 vs 37. Not HUGE differences but still significant.
Look at the players. THJ at his best moments is a sight to behold. He's streaky as hell, though, and I still don't see what he does consistently at an *NBA* level. Jimmy King seems like a reasonable comparison.
McLemore (who appears to be thicker than THJ despite being listed as several pounds lighter) is a slightly more explosive athlete and he has great body control. Look at his jump shot.
You make a good point, though: On paper and in person they're not miles apart.
Stats are misleading as you have evidenced. However the perception as displayed by the by by the various draft rankings are real, and will influence the various NBA teams in the order they are drafting. THJ needs to improve the "perception" for the draft, and that can only be done by returning another year. He won't have the chance to improve his NBA game by sitting on the bench. Given another year, he will compete with another crop of rookies for his seat on the bench. And given another year, he may even not have room on the bench for him. For this year, if there is a possibliity of going in the second round of the NBA draft, where there is no gurantee of a longer term contract, THJ should not even consider entering the draft, I believed that his real motive of going into the NBA draft is that he always dream of going to the NBA, and he was never a Student Athlete, but an Athelete Student. He simly did not like studying, and/or struggle in his studies. He is now pursuing something he likes to do, and that is Basketball. So it is time to say good luck to him, and we will move on. GO BLUE!
You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.
I shouldn't even respond, but I respond to just about everything so f-it.
#1 Clearly you know nothing about basketball, the NBA or the NBA Draft.
#2 This decision had nothing to do with draft stock. If he had stays his stock was not going to go up. He would've been a senior. Unless you believe THJ was going to be player of the year and turn into Michael Jordan over the summer, he was not going to improve enough to make up for the natural decline (in draft spots) from being a senior. Maybe he could've made it up, he certainly wouldn't have surpassed his Late 1st/Early 2nd status.
#3 I don't know if his family is rich, but I'm pretty sure they he would've been fine financially had he stayed in college another year. Nothing about THJ says "struggling college student from a struggling family."
#4 He's certainly a decent NBA player. Could he fixx out? Sure. But anyone in the late 1st/early second could. I don't think it would shock ANYONE if he had a Wayne Ellington/Daequon Cook type of impact in the NBA either. That's a respectable player.
#5 Go back to MLive.
1 - I guess because you say so, it makes it true.
2 - Umm, OK. So I guess THJ is the first player in history to decide whether or not to enter the NBA draft without considering his NBA draft stock at all. Smart move?
3 - I didn't say he needed the money. I said his want for the money now was the only reason for this I could muster.
4 - No, he simply is not. Some say he won't be drafted, and most have him in the second round. Players who are drafted in the second round are not "certainly decent NBA player"s. Hell, some players in the top 5-10 are not decent NBA players. Yes, he could have a respectable career, of course. But it's miles from certain, and the smart money, like it is for all second round picks, is firmly on NO.
5 - I'm not from MLive, or anywhere else. I'm not sure if you always argue this poorly, but you have managed to damage my opinion of ennumerated lists, which makes me sad.
I'll use paragraph form this time.
I didn't need to "say so." You said everything yourself and showed your lack of even average knowledge for the situation. I have no issues if you think THJ isn't a good player (which I know you didn't say), but you gave false information. He's not a mid-to-late 2nd round pick, only YOU have said that. By all accounts he's late 1st to early second.
You also spoke about playing in Europe, again, since when is this fact that THJ is headed to Europe? Is it possible? Sure. But don't speak on it as if it is a certainty.
You said "twenty years ago everyone would've said the same thing." Newsflash, it's not 20 years ago! I actually agree with this statement, but again, it's not 20 years ago. The number of high school and underclassmen have pushed guys like THJ down the board. If this was 20 years ago, most of us expect THJ to come back. It's not.
You go on to say that he's perhaps even lucky to be drafted, and so on and so forth. It's garbage. He's not a fringe player to even be drafted. Stop it. You know better. We all know better.
You finished the another statement about Europe, again, there is nothing that says he's a lock or even likely to go to Europe.
You were flaming. Don't get mad at my numbering for calling you out on it.