joined we would be able to see mguffie play....
EVEN MORE EXPANSIONZZZ
I give up. All anyone wants to talk about is potential expansion, so more potential expansion bits.
Inside info! Someone close to the Rutgers athletic department says that RU will push hard for Big Ten entrance. Not like that is surprising, but there you go.
No, just no. Sorry, Teddy Greenstein, but…
Don't discount this: the Big 14.
I am discounting it. It is now 100% off for a limited time only, and by "limited time only" I mean "forever." Just because some guy in the Big Ten office says "anything is possible" does not mean that we shouldn't be shocked if a conference that's attempted to expand three times in the last fifteen years only to come up empty all of a sudden adds three teams to become an unwieldy beast of a conference in which you only play about half the teams every year.
Fourteen is ridiculous. The WAC was sixteen for a while until it exploded because at that point you're not a conference but a Thomas Jefferson-style loose confederation. Where is the common sense? Where is it? Is it in Russia? No.
Lloyd != Bo. This is not exactly "to hell with Notre Dame":
"I'd love to see Notre Dame join the Big Ten," Carr said. "I think certainly it would be a great thing for the Big Ten, and I think it would be great for Notre Dame.
"But, of course, they're fighting a lot of tradition there (at Notre Dame)," which has resisted overtures from the Big Ten previously, Carr added.
This, of course, is not happening. Notre Dame people believe that the Big Ten's only desire when it comes to engulfing Notre Dame is to destroy the university and therefore the very soul of America itself, and in this they are correct.
Also no just no. Sporting News colleague Dan Shanoff is a nice man who has a bad habit of coming up with an off-the-wall idea and posting it without running it through even the most cursory sanity check. Witness his suggestion that Navy should be the 12th Big Ten team:
*Academic credentials are impeccable.
*Football program is solid.
*Triple-option is "3 Yards/Cloud" 2.0
*Can keep trad'l games w/ Army, AFA, ND.
*Better than Notre Dame.
*Nearly beat Ohio State this season.
*Non-competitive recruiting strategy.
*But expands B10 footprint in the East.
*Feds could use the BCS bowl revenue.
*It is entirely uncontroversial.
Wrong, debatable, irrelevant, irrelevant, wrong, tiny sample size, irrelevant, wrong, irrelevant, irrelevant. The Big Ten is not a charity. Navy is not an AAU member, does not have any national TV cachet, would not be a compelling reason for local cable operators to carry the Big Ten Network because no one in DC is going to have a riot as long as the Army game is on CBS.
Simply comparing Navy to Pitt and finding that Pitt was better in literally every way other than supporting the troops—why does the Big Ten hate America?—would have shot this down before it worked its way onto the internet and sat there being embarrassing, like if the GEICO money was made out of shots of you picking your nose when you were six.
Yes, yes, Terrance Cody's gravitational pull makes everything revolve around the SEC. Braves & Birds tends to see things through two lenses: World War II and SEC superiority. So in retrospect this was obvious:
I have no doubt that this move is motivated by a major case of SEC envy. Barry Alvarez was probably sitting on his couch for the first weekends of the past two Decembers, watching the #1 and #2 teams in the country play each other in the Georgia Dome and thinking to himself "man, we need something like that." However, what the Big Ten needs is not the game in early December; what it needs is teams of the quality of Florida and Alabama. …
And so, to come full circle, the Big Ten right now reminds me of the Third Reich in the summer of 1944. Germany was about to get hammered in the East by Operation Bagration and in the West by Operation Cobra. Faced with major issue, Hitler decided that the way to win the war was by firing a bevy of V-2 rockets at London. His decision was a classic case of praying for some sort of saving throw the the dice when faced with basic shortcomings.
Did Clay Travis steal B&B's login information? The Big Ten has looked at expansion every five years since Penn State joined; were those all motivated by jealousy of the SEC, too? Did the Big Ten come off championships in 1997 and 2002 only to think to itself "that god damned SEC" and look at expanding the following year? How many rhetorical questions can I stick in one paragraph? Five?
I blame Joe Paterno for this annoying meme floating around. Here's his quote from March:
We go into hiding for six weeks," Paterno said, referring to the hiatus between the end of the Big Ten regular season and the BCS bowls. The other major FBS conferences play into the first weekend of December.
"Everybody else is playing playoffs on television," Paterno said. "You never see a Big Ten team mentioned. So I think that's a handicap."
People forget that Paterno is an 81-year old man who has little say over his own football team, let alone the conference it is in. The Big Ten is pushing its schedule later in 2010. Which is next year. To get increased exposure late in the season, all the Big Ten has to do is play.
This has nothing to do with the SEC except insofar as everything designed to get money is part of the arms race and the only conference that even competes with Big Ten is the SEC. They'll do it if they think it's a good idea; they won't if they don't. The big difference this time around is that Notre Dame seems permanently off the table and Pitt has built itself into an attractive basketball power with accompanying decent football program. B&B then goes off on the league's mediocre coaching as if expansion and hiring Danny Hope are in any way dependent. They are not linked.
Yes, expansion is an attempt to make the league better on and off the field. I can't fathom why this has anything to do with the SEC except insofar as everyone who lives in the South is legally obligated to assume everything is because of the SEC. Clay Travis is writing up a column right now about how the New York Times is holding up health care reform by wasting their time on recruiting hostesses.
I really, really, really don’t look forward to 18+ months of mindless speculation over Big 11 expansion.
…which I think we can all agree with. But then it appears that what Pitt Blather wants is speculation about Big East expansion that includes adding Villanova, a I-AA team, and Charlotte, a nonexistent team, instead of Memphis, a team with a billion dollars from FedEx guy.
Welcome. Now give us money. I don't actually know about this but I thought it was interesting. Smart Football's Chris Brown asks about a potential holdup with Team 12 (and team 13, and 14, and 52):
Someone sent me a question regarding whether a new Big 10 member could afford to join, and you seemed like the guy to mention it to.
The concern was whether any potential new Big 10 school could afford to "buy-in" to the BTN. Specifically, he said: "News Corp paid $66M to Big Ten for BTN in '07. Rough numbers put the value today at ~$400M. What school has ~$40M for buy-in?"
According to wikipedia, the member schools own 51% and Fox/News Corp owns 49%. The buy-in would not necessarily be 1/10 the value of the overall entity; it just needs to buy enough shares or units to have 1/12 of the 51%. I don't know how it is structured, but I bet the member schools jointly own an entity which itself owns 51% of the joint BTN venture with News Corp. That way a new school could just buy the units from the other schools, or they could issue new units, such that each school would then own 1/12 of the member schools' portion of the entity. Make sense? If you assume BTN really is worth $400m, that means that a new school would just have to buy 1/12 of the 51%, which comes out to around $17m.
But again, how do we know what the BTN is worth? Mandel threw some revenue figures together but those seem pretty darn loose. And in any event the biggest factor would be what kind of growth rate do you see from the Big 10 Network. I think we both agree the business model is fluctuating.
Finally, my friend made the point that he didn't think a school had that much money. I don't see why an athletic department couldn't borrow that money and then pay it down with future revenues; any school but Notre Dame would undoubtedly have their overall sports revenues increase.
Any thoughts on this? Specifically, whether buying into the BTN would be any kind of hurdle for a new member school? Also let me know if I'm looking at the structure wrong. I don't have any firm info and am just going off some stuff I saw online.
That would depend on how much the school in question brings to the table. If Notre Dame got really drunk and decided to sign up I doubt the Big Ten would push the issue much since adding them to the network would be a big win. Pitt or Rutgers or whoever might be asked to pay for their slice of the pie.
I don't think that would be a major hurdle since you're really cutting the school in on something with excellent growth potential; the school in question could justify buying in with a section of their general fund since it's an investment that should grow in value.
For the record. One man's list of the five most insane schools proposed for Big Ten expansion:
5. Iowa State. Yes, their athletic programs are that historically bad that a land-grant university in the geographic footprint makes this list.
At this rate by the end of these 18 months I'm going to be guest-posting trash talk about Iowa State on BHGP.
4. Toronto. Only mentioned because it's in the AAU and Toronto is so starved for entertainment that they'll sell out MLS games. Problems: the pilot program for NCAA induction of a few Universities only applies to D-II and will get a few schools out West in within ten years, Toronto doesn't play American football, and Michigan State would have to forfeit all its games there because Canada wouldn't let them into the country.
3. Navy. Previously discussed.
2. Cornell. Cornell is an Ivy-league school without a I-A football program. And yet…
1. Rice. It's got all the downsides of Texas combined with all the downsides of Iowa State. Its only asset is that its band integrated e^x during the Rice-Michigan game a while back just so they could spell "sex" in front of 110,000 people.
Isn't Navy from the Naval Academy...although more limited in fields of study, it is a tough place to get into.
It's a tough place to get into from a percentage standpoint, but academically, not as selective as Michigan.
Full disclosure: I got into West Point and had my congressional recommendation all set as well, but chose not to go in favor of Michigan. I still love America.
I was set to go at all three academies but chose to do ROTC at Michigan. The academies are very special, but that's a lifestyle that isn't for everyone. They also aren't for the Big Ten.
...tell me that "isn't navy from the naval academy" is not a real question.
"Tough to get into" isn't the standard the Big 10 will use. It's doctoral programs and research as the primary commitment of faculty, neither of which characterizes the USNA.
The latter characteristic was a stumbling block for a minority of ND faculty in 1998, although the majority of faculty voted in favor of joining the Big 10.
"Michigan State would have to forfeit all its games there because Canada wouldn't let them into the country"
As far as I'm concerned, that's a reason to consider adding them to the Big 10ish.
This was my favorite line from Brian's post...
I live in Toronto, and have seen the football team play. They are horrible even by Canadian standards. They had a 49 game losing record in 2007-8 and haven't had a winning season since 1995. I've seen some of the players in the Sports Medicine clinic and they look pretty unathletic.
As a Michigan fan and alum, though, it would be awesome to see Michigan play in Toronto.
They actually have an American football team? I'm mildly impressed.
I can see Dantonio ordering some "BEAT MICH" uni's for next season...
The problem with that idea is that MSU's "brute squad" would take the message literally and start sending football players over to Ann Arbor to beat up frat guys at UM.
SEC fans are the worst.
Don't forget another downside to Rice joining the Big Ten, Sam McGuffie can't escape. He is then exposed to infinite more concussions.
You can't downplay that for B10 admission goodness.
My opinion of Rice just went way up. Though did they not have enough people to make the dx? Guess it's just a small band.
Someone is holding it on a sign.
makes it even more comical. And upon inspection of your link I see they didn't forget the C. Way to perform on the big stage.
Why are you assuming they're integrating with respect to x?
It could be a trick integral with integration wrt y!
This is by far the nerdiest thing I've ever done in my life...
I saw their band play at Houston during the last game of the regular season. Their band is probably half that size this year. I'm not sure they could pull off the integral and the e, much less the x or dx.
I just assumed that Brian's blurb about the Rice marching band spelling out "S-E-X" was a gag...
Dear Lord, what was the fallout from that little stunt?!
I'm pretty sure they got banned from the stadium for quite a while. Same thing almost happened with Wisconsin's band a couple years back because of obnoxious/inappropriate behavior.
This is the type of thing the conference needs more of. Astronauts, snarky bands, SPACE, bitches.
By the way, is this a "differential equation"?
seems like fraternity rush:
1) Brothers of BigTen expect to have some unspecified number of openings in the future
2) Come by the house this Thursday to meet the brothers
3) Membership qualifications are vague, but the brothers will recognize a strong candidate when they see him
4) Though never mentioned, money plays a big role in the process
Disclaimer: I don't have any first hand experience with fraternity rush; just impressions.
Yeah, but unlike with fraternity rush, the applicants can't show up and eat a bunch of free BW3 wings during Monday Night Football or take a free trip to Cedar Point on the conference, nor take the brothers for a bunch of money in poker night, and then turn down the bid.
Although Notre Dame would do it if they could.
And no, I would NEVER have done anything like I described above when I was in college, mwah ha ha ha.
rush was awesome. (Not that every house did that. Well, they probably did, or else dry rush wouldn't have come along later.)
Not that I cared about getting in, although the guys seemed all right.
Anyway, I think eligible schools should send pictures so the presidents can sit in a dark room and flash the pictures on the wall, one at a time. (No legacies this time, though.)
We as Michigan fans should know the folly of ending the season early. After the amazing tOSU-UM game, when we ended 11-1 and tOSU ended 12-0 parts of the media wanted a rematch of that game and the polls were 1 and 2 for us.
Then the next week the SEC championship game was played and suddenly Michigan slipped despite sitting idle.
Or think about this year. Imagine that coming out of the end of conference play the polls were:
3. tOSU (magically undefeated)
Now Texas in this alternate reality goes out and crushes Nebraska. Just crushs them, Colt McCoy throws for 300 yards, etc. tOSU meanwhile is sitting at home. The fear is the media sees Texas win big and sees Alabama win big and sees nothing from tOSU. So the next week the polls are:
So no national championship bid for tOSU. Whereas if tOSU had played and won they likely would have been able to stay ahead of Texas in the polls.
Beside in general conference championship games are kind of a nose in the tent thing for playoffs.
I sorta somewhat agree. I think it wouldn't hurt to not expand and seeing how they're pushing the conference season back further next year we might be able to make up ground on some of these other conferences in terms of play, but it all comes down to the BTN and money.
Adding another school allows the BTN to grow and everyone's pockets to fill up with additional cash. I really don't think there is a perfect candidate for expansion outside of Notre Dame, but whoever they choose we'll have to settle for.
This is already becoming a tired topic, although one I'd rather listen to then "SEC ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!1!" or the Freep's blabber about Michigan.
I'm not sure that any new member of the Big Ten would necessarily have to come up with a lump sum cash payment to the BTN. This could be true for a couple of reasons.
First, assuming the entering school was a full-fledged member of the conference from day one, there is no reason why tne new school has to get BTN revenues from day one. The BTN could --on paper -- start splitting up its profits 12 ways on day one but withhold the new school's share and distribute it to the existing schools. The amount of withholding could reduce over time until the existing schools had received a total amount from the new school's shares which would equal the buy in cost. For example, in the first year of membership, the new school gives up 100% of its share; in the second year, 80%, and so forth, until the total of amounts withheld equals a 1/12th share of the network's value. This would be like having the BTN finance the new school's buy-in.
Second, why assume that the member is going to be a full-fledged member right away? There might have to be a transition period while schedules are adjusted, particularly in football. During the transition, the new school might have to make its games available to the BTN to the fullest extent possible but not take any revenue from the BTN. This would be like an in-kind buy-in: the new school gives free programming to the BTN for a while and gets a share of BTN ownership at the end of that period. This might be hard to pull off because it's probably hard to value programming on a per-game basis.
There are probably other options. The point is that there are a wide variety of ways to finance a new school's buy-in to the BTN. This should not be an obstacle for any school that joins the conference.
In terms of buying in to the Big 10, can't the conference just "loan" them the money. As in give the new school the stock and then say over a period of 5-10 years, a portion of the BTN revenue that the new school would get is instead paid back to the conference. If the new school leaves or gets kicked out of course they'd have to return the stock, but it doesn't seem like we're so starved for money we'd need a check for 17 million (or about 1.5 million per school) right off the bat.
While I agree the idea of Navy joining the Big 10 to be insane and something that would be beyond counter productive, I dont think you can say its debatable they are not solid football program. If 7-8 bowl years in a row isnt solid, then I dont know what is.
Otherwise, I'm not buying this expansion talk. It seems like we've been debating the 12th team for almost 20 years. I'll believe it when I see it.
That was an awesome post. I love it when you're not moping and drunk...or drunk and not moping, whatever.
Per ESPN, ND isn't interested in coming on board.
Note this comment:
"Our independence is tied up in a lot of the rivalries we have. We play Navy every year and have the tradition of USC weekends. Frankly, it works pretty well to play USC in October at home and in November at their place."
What an asinine comment. They do realize that a quarter of their schedule is already against Big Ten teams. Playing Michigan in front of the largest crowd in the country should mean something to these guys but I guess they assume that is a given. Add OSU to the list instead of poor whipping boy Navy (in most years). Tradition...what a bunch of pussies.
It is really an enigma to me that I despise ND so deeply yet want them to join my conference.
Let me translate that Notre Dame speak:
Iowa, Wisconsin, Penn State and tOSU as our October schedule and promptly go 0-4? No thanks, our traditional body bag games, errr rivals, are very important to us.
/Michigan of course is played in Sept
If Notre Dame is intent on remaining an independent, perhaps the Big Ten should think about refusing to play them out of conference. This is undesirable from a rivalry standpoint but Notre Dame earns revenues and is given attention for playing Big Ten teams. Maybe it is time that they no longer have access to Big Ten resources and fans.
would tell you that strategy has already been tried; the result was Notre Dame scheduling outside the region and becoming a "national power".
I agree with your post 100%. If ND gets all the B10 opponents it needs without joining the B10, then this is another reason not to join. So, let's find out...let's not play ND. Either ND will capitulate, because it needs B10 opponents----or the B10 will give in, because it needs to play even a non-conference ND.
...a Big Ten scheduling boycott would force ND to travel longer distances to play big conference opponents or beat up tomato cans in their own backyard.
Either situation would be a net benefit for the Big Ten in the long run.
Bo made this same point mutiple times in different interviews following the various times ND refused to join. He basically took the attitude if they didn't want to play Big 10 schools, then the Big Ten should oblige them. This would probably have more of an impact now than ever. Top tier teams are not going to add home and home series with ND and give up big paydays every other year. (Like we do.)
With that said, the Big Ten ADs have not taken Bo's advice.
Am I the only one with a suspicion that if we get anyone to say they'll join, the next call will be to Notre Dame to give them one final, last change to join while Delany prays that they'll say yes like a nerd asking a cheerleader to prom?
I live in Iowa and no place in the country is laughing harder about Iowa State joining the Big Ten. They lose to nearly every BCS conference school they play every year and the fans treat the Iowa game as a bowl game. They have a hard time selling their games out for conference matchups and half the people actually in the stadium are in the parking lot tailgating by halftime. They bring nothing to the table whatsoever.
I would actually put Toronto at the top of the list of insane schools. You might as well suggest the Indian Institute of Technology ("They've got a great cricket program, and cricket is on the verge of taking off in the US! The Big Ten should get in on the ground floor!").
think of the IIT's impact on academics! and talk about exploring new markets! I like where you're going with this.
The Rice band is like Stanford's in that they traditionally do a lot of off-beat stuff like this.
While I'd argue Cornell is more ludicrous than Rice as a Big Ten member (I don't think Cornell would ever leave the Ivy League as I think Rice would leave the disparate mess that is C-USA), there is absolutely nothing Rice brings to the table other than a top 3 baseball program. It's half the size of Northwestern. 2008 notwithstanding they are poor in football. They are probably worse in basketball. They draw d!ck in both sports and don't bring any television market. As a contrast, more people ATTEND the University of Texas than have EVER GRADUATED from Rice. It's the rough equivalent of taking Northwestern's hoops program, Indiana's football program and the support of a I-AA athletic program.
Navy is definitely neither an athletic or cultural fit in the Big Ten, but its a good school that fits in academically.
...is why they would never join the big ten.
If we wanted to be like Rice baseball, we'd need to surgically implant devices into our pitchers' elbows and shoulders that cause them to self-destruct within a year after leaving Michigan baseball.
has managed to thrive over the last 15 years despite the dissolution of the SWC, playing in a watered down WAC that included conference games against Hawaii-Hilo (yes, that's Hawaii-Hilo, not Hawaii), and now C-USA. They could probably survive as an independent in baseball if they had to.
I'm not convinced they would join the Big Ten if offered, but the baseball team wouldn't be a reason at the top of the list--they will be fine regardless as long as Graham is still there.