i find this extremely interesting
Depth Chart: Extant, Surprising
Filed under:
Josh Furman, designated "guy who stands there and watches kickoffs sail over his head"
The media has apparently been handed the depth chart for Alabama, as Twitter is blowing up with tidbits from the two-deep. Kyle Meinke just posted the full depth chart over at MLive; breakdown is below:
- Brady Hoke will probably address this during his presser at 12:30, but the biggest news of the day is suspended RB Fitzgerald Toussaint sitting atop the depth chart for Alabama. On the one hand, depth charts don't mean much, so he could very will still be suspended. On the other hand, if he's suspended, why start a firestorm by listing him as the starter? If Toussaint doesn't go, Thomas Rawls will be the starter.
- Along those same lines, Frank Clark surprisingly edges out Brennen Beyer for the #2 weakside DE spot behind Jibreel Black.
- Devin Gardner is listed third on the depth chart at one receiver spot (Meinke's chart doesn't differentiate between X and Y) behind Roy Roundtree and Jerald Robinson; he also appears as the backup quarterback. Jeremy Gallon earns the other starting nod ahead of Drew Dileo and Jeremy Jackson. Gardner started at X receiver in the Mott practice, so we'll see if this holds up come Saturday.
- Brandon Moore earns the top spot at tight end, backed up by walk-on Mike Kwiatkowski, then freshmen A.J. Williams and Devin Funchess.
- Starting offensive line is as expected. From left to right: Taylor Lewan, Elliott Mealer, Ricky Barnum, Patrick Omameh, Michael Schofield. True freshmen Eric Magnuson, Kyle Kalis, and Ben Braden are all listed as backups; my guess is Kalis is the first off the bench for either guard spot or right tackle. Magnuson gets the nod as the backup left tackle, and Kalis is actually third at both guard spots behind Joey Burzynski. Walk-on Eric Gunderson is the backup right tackle ahead of Braden. Please stay healthy, starting linemen.
- The defensive line is the same as what we saw at the Mott practice: Black at weakside DE, Quinton Washington at nose, Will Campbell at three-tech, Craig Roh at strongside DE. Nathan Brink is listed as the primary backup for both strongside DE and three-tech. Richard Ash is ahead of Ondre Pipkins at nose tackle for now.
- Linebackers are the same as last year. Two true freshmen earn primary backup spots: Joe Bolden at middle linebacker and James Ross on the weak side.
- No surprises in the secondary; nickel corner isn't separated into its own position, so we don't get clarity as to who would step in after Courtney Avery, though my guess is that would be Raymon Taylor.
- Perhaps the biggest surprise—save Toussaint potentially starting vs. Alabama—is Josh Furman earning the nod at kick returner. His speed is supposed to be one of his primary assets; we won't be able to see him use it much if the new kickoff rules have their expected impact. Dennis Norfleet will also return kicks, while Gallon returns to handle punt return duties.
- The only "OR" on the entire depth chart comes at punter, where Matt Wile and Will Hagerup are listed as co-starters.
UPDATE BEFORE I EVEN POST: Brady Hoke says he still hasn't made a decision regarding Toussaint and Clark.
Given the lack of "OR"s (in stark contrast to previous years, when they littered the depth chart), the heavy lean towards upperclassmen walk-ons over freshmen as backups, and Gardner's placement at receiver, this depth chart may mean absolutely nothing. I expect we'll see a very different rotation than what the above would indicate, especially at receiver, tight end, and along the offensive line.
August 27th, 2012 at 12:48 PM | 
Ace, I'm confused.
Ace, I'm confused.
August 27th, 2012 at 1:39 PM |
Seconded
Seconded
I was also very confused by this.
August 27th, 2012 at 12:49 PM |
Neg all you want but
Neg all you want but
I would and will be happy to see both Fitz and Clark play. There should be a better way to penalize players that would NOT also penalize the team.
August 27th, 2012 at 12:58 PM |
Have any ideas?
Have any ideas?
Or just... don't hurt our record?
"Over? Did you say, over? Nothing is over until we decide it is!"
August 27th, 2012 at 1:19 PM |
I understand you might think I'm a 'win at all costs' type.
I understand you might think I'm a 'win at all costs' type.
I'm not. As far ideas, no, I don't. It's not really up to me(or you) though. What do you suggest? One game suspension? Two? Kick them both off the team? I just think there are alternatives and sitting them is just for show. It punishes the team as well as the individual player. Also, coach Hoke gets paid pretty well to make these descions. I feel confident that whatever he decides will be best for the team.
August 27th, 2012 at 4:32 PM |
I'd sit Fitz 1 Game
I'd sit Fitz 1 Game
And yes it punishes the team, but that's part of the incentive NOT to do bad things. You don't just let yourself down, you punish everyone around you as well.
It's similar to "everyone finishes this sprint within 1 minute or the whole team does another".
As a slow guy, would it suck if I had to do another sprint? Sure. Would it suck way more if EVERYONE had to do a sprint? Yup. But that's team sports.
Clark is out of game action until his court date/legal issues are resolved. He still has practice, etc. to give him some discipline/order in his life, but he's not seeing the field in a game until it's sorted out.
And 1 game for Fitz, because he easily could have killed someone.
"Over? Did you say, over? Nothing is over until we decide it is!"
August 27th, 2012 at 1:01 PM |
Football is a team sport
Football is a team sport
Football is a team sport. If a starter makes a bad decision, it will always have ramifications for the team. Every player is accountable to his teammates and his coaches.
2014 Offer List BOYCOTT ADIDAS
August 27th, 2012 at 12:51 PM |
WDE
WDE
The most interesting spot, in my mind, is the WDE rankings, which represent a dramatic shift from the previous conventional wisdom of Beyer starting (with Clark's issue) and Black inside. Did the coaches decide that Beyer wasn't big enough to stand up against a physical running game? Did his weight gain cost him some quickness? And will Black's added weight affect his ability to pressure the QB around the corner?
August 27th, 2012 at 1:21 PM |
I'm just guessing that they
I'm just guessing that they
I'm just guessing that they think the four best players are Black, Washington, BWC and Roh. I guess we lose some speed on our line becuase of this, but we do add more size, which might be more important vs a team like Alabama.
Greetings from Bolivia.
"It's special how the real true people hang together. And if you don't support the program you're not a true Michigan guy. It's that simple." - Gary Moeller
August 27th, 2012 at 1:29 PM |
bit of a surprise
bit of a surprise
If they think Washington is a better player than Beyer/Clark.
I suspect it's more about getting Campbell at DT rather than NT...and like you said, getting some size on the field instead of being rather small at WDE and DT.
August 27th, 2012 at 1:27 PM |
It is the big surprise. However...
It is the big surprise. However...
It might not mean much for the rest of the season. Black, if he's a viable DT at all, isn't a long-term solution at WDE. I think this is a BIG lineup that will be used for Alabama, and maybe only for Alabama, (until we see Wisconsin in the Championship Game).
My hope is that eventually Black rotates with Campbell at DT, and Campbell moves back and forth between NT and DT, giving us a versatile trio at NT/DT....with Brink and Pipkins potentially playing in as well at some point.
OTOH, the new starting lineup does have nice symetry to it, that allows for the line to slide over without flipping personel. (i.e., Roh and Black can play either WDE or SDE, and Campbell and Washingtan can play either NT or DT.)
August 27th, 2012 at 1:50 PM |
That last paragraph is a
That last paragraph is a
That last paragraph is a great point.
If you're correct about the "BIG" lineup, we might see it a lot against MSU and Iowa as well, as they're likely to remain power running teams where the concern will be that the WDE doesn't get runned over at the point of attack.
August 27th, 2012 at 2:34 PM |
I agree with your first
I agree with your first
I agree with your first paragraph. Just because this is our line up for Alabama doesn't mean it will be the line up for most of our other games (although I'm sure it will be for super run-heavy Air Force). A good coach will adjust his line up and personnel depending on the strength of his opponent.
That said, the Big Ten is much more run heavy than pass heavy this year, so we might see this more often than not.
August 27th, 2012 at 2:43 PM |
more about personnel than run/pass
more about personnel than run/pass
I don't necessarily think the BIG DL is as beneficial against running spread teams like Illinois or Northwestern as it would be against traditional offenses like MSU or Iowa.
Then again the adjustments there might be playing a nickelback for most of the game...
Last year's August depth chart proved fairly legit.
August 27th, 2012 at 12:53 PM |
We are better than the SEC...
We are better than the SEC...
... I hope Fitz and Clark don't play.
Homer? Who is Homer? My name is Wolverine Incognito.
August 27th, 2012 at 12:58 PM |
Seconded re: Means Nothing
Seconded re: Means Nothing
Borges is so formation and matchup and specialist happy (see all the recruiting posts Brian has been doing) that I'd be we line up in the "depth Chart 1s" (2WRs, TE, FB, RB) about, oh, 5% of the time. Same with Mattison. The "Best 11" for a certain situation or play will vary a lot.
But hooray football news!
"Over? Did you say, over? Nothing is over until we decide it is!"
August 27th, 2012 at 1:05 PM |
Who cares what MSU or Ohio St
Who cares what MSU or Ohio St
Who cares what MSU or Ohio St does with players that break rules. Let them govern themselves. Like many have said, Fitz and Clark, if found guilty will be held accountable to their fellow teammates and ultimately to themselves. Let's not judge Coach Hoke on what he decides, he knows more than all of us and he is the coach.
August 27th, 2012 at 1:59 PM |
As far as not being
As far as not being
As far as not being judgmental of MSU or OSU goes, the cat was out of that bag a while ago.
August 27th, 2012 at 1:07 PM |
As long as Clark is also
As long as Clark is also
As long as Clark is also listed on the depth chart, I would assume it doesn't take into account suspensions. Fitz playing wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility, but Clark playing would be (his court date isn't even until after the game). It's already been established that Fitz is "the guy," so him being on the depth chart doesn't mean much imo. I doubt we know if Fitz/Clark are going to play until kickoff on Saturday. Hoke has been silent about them all along, why would he say something now?
COYS and Vive Le Rouge of Detroit FC!
August 27th, 2012 at 1:07 PM |
TE
TE
Forgive my lack of knowledge on what eactly the roster is intended to say, but....
So, for the occasional two TE sets, would it mean that Kwia....Kwita....KW....errr, that Mike guy...would be the other TE opposite Moore?
The Team, The Team, The Team
August 27th, 2012 at 1:21 PM |
Don't count on the depth chart
Don't count on the depth chart
to fully identify which players will be on the field for Borges' varied offensive packages.
2014 Offer List BOYCOTT ADIDAS
August 27th, 2012 at 1:24 PM |
Someone that has been called,
Someone that has been called,
Someone that has been called, "mind freak" by Roundtree cannot be confined to depth charts.
Greetings from Bolivia.
"It's special how the real true people hang together. And if you don't support the program you're not a true Michigan guy. It's that simple." - Gary Moeller
August 27th, 2012 at 1:24 PM |
Special nod to the MLive crew
Special nod to the MLive crew
Special nod to the MLive crew for saying that Dennis Northfleet is the second kick returner. It begins.
August 27th, 2012 at 1:29 PM |
I can't wait for the day when
I can't wait for the day when
I can't wait for the day when you have to carefully look over the depth chart to find a Fr. attached to a name in the 2-deep.
Go Blue!
August 27th, 2012 at 1:41 PM |
Am I the only one who kinda
Am I the only one who kinda
Am I the only one who kinda felt all giddy and happy (but in a totally non-little girl way) when Brian referred to the game as "Saturday"? Not "next Saturday", not "September 1st" or "when we play Alabama." Just Saturday. Mah Gawd I can't believe it's already here!
Not that I loved Rich Rod less, but that I loved Michigan more.
August 27th, 2012 at 2:20 PM |
Agreed.
Ehrmagerd it's here
Agreed.
Ehrmagerd it's here
Agreed.
Ehrmagerd it's here the season is upon us.
Here's hoping for a bright future. This team does try hard and I will continue to support them.
August 27th, 2012 at 1:53 PM |
Thoughts...
Thoughts...
#1 - With the amount of information The FORT has released to the media this year, take this depth chart with a grain of salt. This could be reused for the next 4 games for all we know (thus putting guys who are suspended for maybe 1 game on it in their normal spots).
#2 - Nothing is too shocking. Fitz may not start, but he's the #1 RB...we all know that.
#3 - I don't know why the Mott practice (or any other ONE practice) is being mentioned so specifically. If I'm Coach Hoke and I know the potential in Gardner, I'm going to run him with the 1's for a couple practices to give him the most reps as I can (and with the 1st team). Same with Justice Hayes...you know what you have in Fitz and Rawls, let's get some for the other guys that you need to be GAME READY. I wouldn't be surprised if Kalis or Magnuson ran a good deal with the 1's. Lewan isn't going to get as much out of the 14th camp practice as a true freshman will.
#4 - Clearly the Beyer-Campbell-Black-Roh line just wasn't big enough. And at first I thought maybe that's their nickel or dime DL, but in those situations we've dropped Jake Ryan down at WDE. I think (barring injury) we've come to the conclusion that we need the beef in the middle. We have 3 DL coaches who see these guys every day, if anyone disagrees...seriously, find a high building and jump.
#5 - Furman doesn't surprise me, he played RB in high school, he has excellent straightline speed...and he's big. Remember in the 90s? Carr would have Anthony Thomas back there early in his career. We seemed to always prefer a bigger back vs. an Oregon Duck speed demon. Sounds like we got both in Furman and Norfleet...that could be a HUGE improvement.
“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”
August 27th, 2012 at 2:16 PM |
Regarding #1
Regarding #1
Looking back at last year's August depth chart; it proved pretty accurate. The guys that won jobs in the end (Ryan, Morgan, Countess) were second on the depth chart.
Some skepticism is warranted but the depth chart isn't a spot where you really gain much from hiding information.
August 27th, 2012 at 5:05 PM |
Last year...
Last year...
Last year was pre-THE FORT.
This year has been prehistoric in media information.
“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”
August 27th, 2012 at 5:40 PM |
how does impact the depth chart
how does impact the depth chart
You think THE FORT - means they're going to make stuff up for the depth chart release?
August 27th, 2012 at 5:55 PM |
No...
No...
It means that they're going to share the information that they want to share. Period.
It also may mean that there is gamesmenship or motivational tactics in what they release. Not saying this is the case now. But in the end if you're taking this thing as "BIBLE" then you need to take a step back before you buy some oceanfront property in Idaho.
“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”
August 27th, 2012 at 2:16 PM |
Regarding #3
Regarding #3
THAT (DL) is the spot I would not take too seriously. Last year they listed Heininger at DE and RVB at DT, but I think they ended up flipping. Campbell played a good bit, Washington did not.
There is a great deal of fluidity between the positions, and a great deal of rotation that takes places, situational substitutions, etc. The depth chart there probably doesn't mean much, long-term.
August 27th, 2012 at 5:08 PM |
They did flip...
They did flip...
On more than one occassion...
DT (not NG, the 3-tech DT) and SDE are very similar in this defense. As are SLB/WDE and WLB/MLB.
...but what part of that has to do with #3? Or #4 for that matter (which I assume you meant).
“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”
August 27th, 2012 at 5:49 PM |
#4 DL
#4 DL
Is what I meant.
You conclude that THE FORT means we shouldn't take this early season depth chart thing too seriously but then conclude the DL portion is a clear sign of obvious Beef-desire.
I think that's backward: the depth chart is largely legit, but reading too much into who they assign between the different DL positions is not a good idea. Those positions have a great deal of fluidity. LIke you said; the 3 and 5 are similar and so are SLB/WDE. So...I wouldn't get into drawing too many conclusions about them when those are the positions where the most change can be expected when injuries occur or backups break out.
We know Campbell can play NT. We know Roh can play WDE. We know Black can move around too. So how they fit the pieces around that remains uncertain, even if the answer in Week 1 is QW.
August 27th, 2012 at 5:53 PM |
Of course it's legit...
Of course it's legit...
But it's not exactly what you'll see in game 1. There is nothing on the depth chart that is that far fetched...it's not like they have BWC at RB.
I was saying a lot of things, that Gardner at #1 WR in practice didn't mean anything...neither did Rawls not playing much at that practice. That Clark is listed ahead of Beyer doesn't mean anything either.
“True loyalty is that quality of service that grows under adversity and expands in defeat. Any street urchin can shout applause in victory, but it takes character to stand fast in defeat. One is noise — the other, loyalty.”
August 27th, 2012 at 5:58 PM |
Thanks, I will totally
Thanks, I will totally
Thanks, I will totally disregard the teams depth chart, and wait for 3 or 4 authoritative depth charts to be spawned by you.
August 27th, 2012 at 2:17 PM |
LT
LT
If Taylor were to need to be on the sideline for a play or two, wouldn't they move Schofield over to LT and put one of the freshman at RT?
August 27th, 2012 at 2:30 PM |
This is assuming the coaches
This is assuming the coaches
This is assuming the coaches are not going to play the true freshman. Maybe move Schofield to LT then have Mealer slide over to RT and have Bryzynski play LG.
Greetings from Bolivia.
"It's special how the real true people hang together. And if you don't support the program you're not a true Michigan guy. It's that simple." - Gary Moeller
August 27th, 2012 at 2:45 PM |
I doubt it
I doubt it
A play or two - probably not. A series or two - maybe. A game or two - probably.
But yeah, the actual backup OT might be Mealer, Omameh, Gunderson, or a freshman - no one really knows.
Are you saying Kalis is number two at either LG, RG and RT, or that he's number two at RT and number three for LG and RG?
"We bring you to Michigan to take care of Michigan; your job is to protect that block M."
-Carol Hutchins