The Death of Dual Threet, And The Fallout Comment Count

Brian

(caption) Michigan quarterback Steven Threet (10) outruns Wisconsin linebacker Jonathan Casillas for a 58-yard gain that set up the game winning touchdown late in the fourth quarter. Casillas caught Threet at the end of the run. *** Michigan rallies back from a 19-0 deficit to stun the ninth-ranked Wisconsin Badgers 27-25, giving new head coach Rich Rodriguez a victory in his first Big Ten game. *** The Michigan Wolverines (1-2) host the 9th-ranked Wisconsin Badgers in U-M head coach Rich Rodriguez' first Big Ten game. Photos taken on Saturday, September 27, 2008.  ( John T. Greilick / The Detroit News )




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Last year I attempted to coin a clever nickname for the Feagin-Threet quarterback pairing: "Dual Threet." Dual is now a slot receiver and Threet is moseying on out of town, possibly to North Dakota State if you believe random guys on a message board. (Do not believe random guys on a message board. Believe specific guys on a message board.) So it goes for Michigan in the past couple years.

I've been a stalwart supporter of Rich Rodriguez since his arrival. I didn't think Ryan Mallett's departure was his fault, nor did he have much of an opportunity to land a dual-threat guy in the month or so he had to finish off Michigan's 2008 recruiting class. The one guy it seemed he did have a chance with, BJ Daniels, ended up at South Florida amidst a flurry of payoff rumors that even The Wolverine—normally a place that shies away from incendiary allegations like that—lent credence to. The hand he was dealt was an exceptionally poor one. I can find no better way to sum it up than this: how many walk-on quarterbacks can you remember at power (or even decent) programs, and how did they do?

I've got exactly two:

  • Notre Dame's Matt Lovecchio, AKA A Major Reason Ty Willingham Was Fired.
  • UCLA's McLeod Bethel-Thompson, AKA The Only Reason Notre Dame Beat A BCS Opponent In 2007.

There's almost no precedent for a quarterback situation like the one Michigan faced in 2008, and almost no way to claw yourself out of a hole that vast at the most important position on the field. Once that hand was dealt, Rodriguez was dead meat.

So the reasonable criticism of Rodriguez are mostly confined to his role in setting up his hand: "running off" Mallett, the Boren defection, the fruitless chase of Pryor, and so on and so forth. I didn't find any of these arguments compelling, since I knew Mallett had a foot and a half out the door even when Carr was running the team and that the Borens had major daddy issues and the options outside of Pryor were about nil. The decision to hire Shafer was a poor one, and that seemed like it should be held against Rodriguez. Other than that, it was Angry Michigan Whatever Hating God all the way.

You can tell there's a but coming, so: but. But the Threet transfer bothers me. Even with the recruitment of Forcier and Robinson, Threet is the most experienced quarterback on the roster by two years and has some decent starting experience. He will find no better situation wherever he transfers unless it's to some podunk I-AA school. The transfer makes little sense for him personally or professionally unless there's something behind the scenes we don't know about.

Meanwhile, Michigan now finds itself down to two true freshmen before they have to drag out another walkon, be it Nick Sheridan or Nader Furrha or whoever. Even if Threet was mostly poor a year ago, he was obviously far superior to the alternative, and at worst he would be the backup next year. With Denard Robinson something of a project, every one of Michigan's egg is now in Tate Forcier's basket. Threet leaving the program is an obvious negative.

So it doesn't make sense on anyone's part. Why did it happen? I go back to a quote from Calvin Magee in the aftermath of the Michigan State game. Dan Feldman's Daily article on the transfer highlights it:

By staying and giving Michigan another feasible option besides Sheridan, Threet opened himself to public criticism from the Wolverines’ coaches. Offensive coordinator Calvin Magee described Threet’s three-interception performance against Michigan State on Oct. 25 as “inconsistent, like it always is.”

Man, that's pretty rough. Behind-the-scenes reports from insiders always said Threet had major confidence issues and didn't respond well to this staff's high pressure style. Maybe they tried to adapt. That evidently didn't last, so Threet decided he'd be better off elsewhere.

It's obvious neither side had much faith in the other. That's not unexpected given the rickety nature of the pairing, but I can't help but think that Bo or Lloyd would have found a way to finesse it better. I don't know. Maybe I've been talking to John U. Bacon too much.

(caption) Michigan QBs Steven Threet (10) and Nick Sheridan (far right) walk off the field after the loss. *** Notre Dame takes advantage of six U-M turnovers to beat the Wolverines 35-17 at Notre Dame Stadium in South Bend, Indiana.  Photos taken on Saturday, September 13, 2008.  ( John T. Greilick / The Detroit News )




threet-hail

Elsewhere

  • Pretty sure Matt Hayes has no idea that Nick Sheridan is a walk-on. Asked "what does the Threet transfer mean for M" he responded "It means Nick Sheridan, who shared time with Threet last fall, is next out the door." This is unlikely unless Sheridan wants to go to UM-Dearborn or something.
  • Maize 'n' Brew blows up a pretty dumb Blade article on the transfer. HT to them for the NDSU link, too.
  • The Ann Arbor News thinks there's "no heir apparent," which, could not be more wrong since there is one obvious guy who is obviously the starter now.
  • But, hey, Forcier seems slightly more confident than Threet (link ibid): "In this offense, there's always somebody open. You should never throw an incompletion.'' Forcier's cockiness should serve him well.
  • Chengelis says you shouldn't anoint either freshman your lord and savior yet.
  • DocSat has a take as well.

Comments

El Jeffe

February 19th, 2009 at 12:15 PM ^

with this, in the abstract sense that having Threet > not having Threet. I wasn't trying to argue that we are actually better off w/out him (addition by subtraction), only that the most likely explanations don't make me worry about RR's tactics or judgment, which is the only thing I really care about. If he was square dealin' with ST, then even if he told him he was going to go in a different direction with the QB position, leading ST to transfer, I guess I can't find much to worry about there. And, as WCW implies, wouldn't it actually be worse in a moral sense if RR "finessed" the Threet situation so as to keep him? Ironically, therefore, rather than RR being a slimy snake oiler, he may have put ST's interests ahead of the team's by being so honest with ST about where he stood that ST could make a well-informed choice, even if that led him to transfer. You could argue that RR is dumb for doing that, or that he hurt the team, but it would be hard to argue that he was being a dick for doing it.

bsb2002

February 18th, 2009 at 5:53 PM ^

threet is a sub-mediocre qb who responds poorly to criticism and adversity and who gets hurt a lot. he is now on his 3rd college. why some of you have such a hard on for him has never made sense to me - not during the season and not now. just because he seems like a nice guy and you want to be his friend doesn't make him any good.

Farnn

February 18th, 2009 at 6:05 PM ^

He may not be a great football player, but from everything I've seen he is good human being. These football players are more than just objects for our amusement on the football field, something I find is often forgotten by passionate fans. While I would have liked him to stay for the team, as he has the most starting experience of anyone, and I feel he should have stayed for the degree, I wish him the best where ever he ends up.

caup

February 18th, 2009 at 6:40 PM ^

you're talking about a kid who was thrown into the starting role as a freshman in a new offense poorly suited to his pro-style skill set. Playing behind a Swiss Cheese OL. With no proven rainmaker at WR or RB. No Braylon. No Hart. No Manningham. I mean...FUCK! #1 Ideally, kids should NEVER have to start as freshmen. That is setting them up to fail. #2 He wasn't suited for RR's offense. So, I do agree with you that him transferring isn't the end of the world, but I get irritated by people who think last year was ANY type of indication that he is good or bad or otherwise. Let me put it this way: a freshman Tom Brady playing on last year's team would have SUCKED! OR this way: A true freshman Chad Henne playing on last year's team would have SUCKED! Okay everybody?!?!?!

matty blue

February 19th, 2009 at 1:51 PM ^

...this is a FAN site, not a football site. by definition. i don't think it betrays anything to want to have good kids on the team. kids who win, of course, but that's not all that matters. if winning was the only consideration we'd be happy with any felon we could get on campus. then we could call ourselves "ohio state."

wile_e8

February 18th, 2009 at 6:08 PM ^

threet was a redshirt freshman this past year who will improve as he becomes more familiar with the system. he has three years of college left why some of you already dismiss him has never made sense to me - not when we signed two new qbs and not now just because he had a poor freshman year doesn't mean we'll do better this year starting completely inexperienced true freshman.

bsb2002

February 18th, 2009 at 6:12 PM ^

you can only evaluate on what a player actually did, not on wishes about what he might do in the future. maybe he would have improved, maybe not. we don't know. it's not about writing a kid off; it's about not getting too upset because a demonstrably bad player left.

wile_e8

February 18th, 2009 at 6:28 PM ^

It's not wishes, it's just that, with relatively rare exceptions, quarterbacks usually improve from their freshman to sophomore years, and true freshman quarterbacks usually play poorer than experienced quarterbacks. I just don't see any reason our team would be better off with only true freshman and walk-ons for quarterback instead of having a likely improved experienced starter on the team. No, I don't know that he would have improved, but it's likely given the extra time in the system. And as far as labeling him demonstrably bad, I don't think he was any worse than Navarre was as a redshirt freshman with a much worse supporting cast. And he ended up leading a top-5 Rose Bowl team by the time he left. Anyone one reaching conclusions about Threet's potential after this past season *is* writing him off.

chitownblue (not verified)

February 18th, 2009 at 8:22 PM ^

maybe he would have improved, maybe not. we don't know. I 100%, absolutely agree with this statement. That's why I don't understand why you go on to say this: maybe he would have improved, maybe not. we don't know. If we don't know whether he would have or would not have improved, can we really call him a demonstrably bad player? As a freshman, he was bad - but the reason why most don't play as freshmen is because virtually EVERY freshman is bad - Matt Stafford sucked, Mitch Mustain sucked, Drew Henson sucked, and we can assume that the 80% of college Qb's (made up stat) who end up starting at some point - but not as Freshmen - sucked as well. So Threet sucked too - that doesn't really say anything about whether he will always suck. We can agree that he's not an ideal match, skill-wise, for this offense. But he was an Elite-11, top-shelf QB, roughly equivalent to Tate in terms of offers and overall rating. When our options for next year are: a) Unproven possibly polished true freshman with 9 months to learn the system. b) Unproven raw true freshman with 3 months to learn the system. c) Walk-on with moderate experience. d) Slot receiver. e) Best play-signaler in NCAA Wouldn't you at least want to throw in "Elite-11, 4-Star Sophomore with 9 games of starting experience in BCS college football" into the mix? Considering that there is no "sure thing" on this roster, don't we want to throw as many guys who are legitimate possibilities into the ring as possible?

Blue Durham

February 18th, 2009 at 9:39 PM ^

Two 18 year old QB's getting hit (particularly in this offense) repeatedly by 21-23 year olds with years of college conditioning and weight training = disaster waiting to happen. Injuries (or the lack thereof) at QB is going to make the difference between a mediocre season and a disasterous one. Edit (particularly for JamieMac): What would the over/under be for number of games Forcier will physically be able to play in? Chilling thought.

bsb2002

February 18th, 2009 at 9:45 PM ^

i said he was "demonstrably bad" because, in the games he played, he was generally bad again, i'm talking about what we know, not what could be maybe he improves, but right now what we're assessing is what michigan lost - which is a guy who didnt play very well

wile_e8

February 18th, 2009 at 10:24 PM ^

Let me put this in terms you can demonstrably understand. Yes, Threet was demonstrably bad last year. However, he demonstrably gained a year of experience in the system, and demonstrably showed the potential to be an adequate quarterback in a few demonstrable games. Sheridan was demonstrably a walk on, and demonstrably showed the arm strength of a walk on when he played. Forcier and Robinson were demonstrably in high school last year, and have demonstrably never taken a snap in a formal practice in college, let alone demonstrably played a game. Therefore, we demonstrably have absolutely no idea how good either of them demonstrably are. So, given the demonstrable play of Threet last year plus the demonstrable progression of other quarterbacks between their freshman and sophomore years, we demonstrably think he could have been an asset to the team this year compared to walk ons and true freshman, given the demonstrable weak play by most walk ons and true freshman in the demonstrable past.

bsb2002

February 18th, 2009 at 6:23 PM ^

Threet's numbers are not worse than what many freshman QB's that turned into quality college QB's experienced in their first year, _____ yes, and they are not worse than what many freshman QBs that turned into bad college QBs experienced either think of it this way, not every three star recruit becomes mike hart. not every bad freshman becomes brian griese you are basically assuming that, because a player was bad, they will become good. this is wrong.

J. Lichty

February 18th, 2009 at 5:55 PM ^

He will find no better situation wherever he transfers unless it's to some podunk I-AA school. The transfer makes little sense for him personally or professionally unless there's something behind the scenes we don't know about. But what if the podunk 1-AA school IS a better situation. My initial thoughts on this that this was a stupid career move as Threet would have likely started the season, but to what end. So he could stay another year in an offense that he is not well suited for, and that he probably didnt like playing. Why not move on to podunk or NoDak and not waste a year playing a system you know that long term you will not be in? I think from a business standpoint this makes perfect sense and you occams razor types (I know there are few on this board) can be satisfied with that. Now moving on to the question of whether McGee or Rod threw him under the bus. I think that they were less than supportive of him in public, except that he was clearly the starter after a couple games. There have been reports that Threet was not a very strong leader, and there is a reason why Sheridan beat him out in the first place, so it could be an issue with the coaches, but they did rather quickly make Threet the starter. And McGee's quote about inconsistency is absolutely true and I do not think was really harsh, just a simple fact. We all observed Threet's (and the rest of the offense's for that matter) inconsistency. So, I agree with the posters above who stated that if there was really a problem with the coaching staff, Threet would have been gone by Thanksgiving. To me this shows that he gave it a lot of thought and decided that it was in his best interest from a business standpoint to try to get 2-3 years of eligibility in a situation better suited to his style of play. - also, wasn't Brian Giese a walkon?

papabear16

February 18th, 2009 at 5:55 PM ^

Although it was only a small part of the story, I love Tate's cockiness or arrogance, call it what you will. There are just some types of people where you want them to TRULY BELIEVE that they are supermen, no matter how arrogant or cocky that sounds. Airline pilots. Brain surgeons. Trial lawyers. Quarterbacks. Keep the attitude, Tate. It will serve you well. It's the one common denominator among QBs who struggle for three quarters before leading game-winning drives in the fourth.

GoBlueSnagglew…

February 18th, 2009 at 6:02 PM ^

I can't argue with the basic proposition that we would be better off with Threet as a security blanket. However, if our season were to go well with Threet on our team he'd be on the bench after three games or so. If Threet is started every game this season we would be in big trouble because that kid is not the future and that would imply that Tate and DRob weren't able to step up. At the end of the day, Threet didn't accomplish much on the field. You could argue that the best QB performance of the season was put up by Sheridan against Minnesota. I'm not arguing that Sheridan is better, but I would argue that the gap between the two isn't so huge. I also think you can look at RR's handling of the situation as a positive. Threet (like everyone else) can read the writing on the wall. His chances of playing were dwindling. I'm sure RR and his staff have been more focused on Forcier than Threet this semester. Maybe Threet talked to RR and RR shot Threet straight. Maybe RR told him that if he wants to start for a few years, Michigan isn't the place for him. What's wrong with that? It's honest, it's upfront and it's best for Threet and the Michigan program that needs to move quickly to a dual-threat QB. I think that if RR convinced Threet to stick around to get a few easy wins in the beginning of the season, while transitioning to Forcier/DRob would be the immoral thing to do. It would burn Threet's eligibility and basically kill his career. This scenario leaves Threet in control of his own destiny. Best of luck to Threet - probably a nice guy, but not a guy that would ever be a serious starter at Michigan.

Six Zero

February 18th, 2009 at 6:28 PM ^

Call me crazy but did anyone else get excited hearing Brennan Clay talk about how well Tate's doing up here? I know he's going to support his former teammate and all, but why would a young kid put more pressure on Forcier by saying he's excelling if he's not?

funkywolve

February 18th, 2009 at 6:53 PM ^

Mathew Stafford's freshmen numbers are worse then Threets. Stafford: Games - 13, QB rating - 62.5, Comp - 135, Att - 256, Pct. - 52.7, Yds - 1749, TD - 7, Int - 13 Threet: Games - 10, QB rating - 68, Comp - 102, Att - 200, Pct - 51, Yds - 1105, TD - 9, Int - 7 Maybe Threet would have gotten better, maybe he wouldn't. Two years after Stafford's horrible freshmen year he's probably going to be a 1st round draft pick.

wolverine1987

February 18th, 2009 at 7:06 PM ^

Threet's at times horrible play (I'm not blind, some of his passes made me go WTF was that!) obscured the fact that MOST freshman QB's play that way. I'm not saying he's Stafford, or any other future 1st, 2nd or 3rd round QB even, I'm saying that its wrong to write him off worse than any other Freshman QB and at the same time think its no big deal if we lose him.

jwfsouthpaw

February 18th, 2009 at 7:45 PM ^

Stafford had the tools to be a first-round draft pick. They were visible. How many of Threet's completions were bubble screen passes? And Stafford played in the SEC, which (unfortunately) is undeniably better on the whole than the Big Ten. Comparing Stafford and Threet is simply laughable. I would have LOVED to see you try to argue this during the season. The reactions would have been priceless.

jwfsouthpaw

February 18th, 2009 at 7:12 PM ^

During the season, we continually lamented the quarterback play. The general consensus among Michigan fans was that Sheridan equals death, and Threet is marginally--but definitively--better. We looked forward to the day when Threet officially passed the torch to a QB with talent to run RR's offense. We hoped that day would come soon, preferably this year. Now? People are up in arms, championing the facts that Threet was "just a redshirt freshman" and that he would show clear improvement. Some people talk optimistically about Threet's chances to make the NFL in the right situation. These same people would have been roundly ridiculed during the season. NOBODY even hinted at Threet's "NFL talent" last season. Nobody. And for good reason. Now, I understand that Threet would have provided depth. I absolutely wish that he would have stayed. He also had value in the film room and in mentoring the incoming quarterbacks. But I do not understand the sudden love fest that surrounds Threet's future. Most fans predicted that Tate would start sooner rather than later (sooner meaning this year). Again, Threet had significant value as a backup with system experience. He had value as a buffer between Tate/Robinson and Sheridan. But some of the posts here seem way too positive about Threet's future as a Michigan wolverine. You would think a projected first round draft pick just transferred. I also posit that Tate will fare significantly better than Sheridan did last year. That seems like a safe assumption. And Sheridan started the opener last year. Just something to keep in mind.

wolverine1987

February 18th, 2009 at 7:22 PM ^

Speaking for myself, there are three reasons I think people are talking up Threet and didn't (myself included) during the season: 1- we were too dazed/befuddled/pissed off by our overall futility and only now in the off-season can think properly, 2- because as we are looking to next year we are looking, as people do, at potential, and 3- people lately are talking about Threet as if we're better off with him gone, which IMO is ignorant of football reality.

jwfsouthpaw

February 18th, 2009 at 7:41 PM ^

I genuinely believe some people do not remember (or blocked from their memory) just how futile the QB play was for ninety percent of the time last year. And we fail to remember just how many of those completions were bubble screen passes. Against good teams (exception: 1st half of Penn State), the passing game was virtually nonexistent.

matty blue

February 19th, 2009 at 2:16 PM ^

we hoped the day would come soon...no question about that. but this FORCES that to happen on september 5th, regardless of how well forcier plays in fall camp. it eliminates some part of competition for the starting job. that's never, ever a good thing for a team in flux.

mth822

February 18th, 2009 at 8:01 PM ^

I hope that it all turns out better for both of them, both Michigan under Coach Rich Rodriguez and his staff. And then for, well, not only for Threet, but anyone else who has transferred from MI really. Guys like S. Threet, tend to be liner or foot notes in stories where the team goes on to great success's. Or they turn out to be chapter names if the coach and program flops. Either way, I think two things are happening which are kind of obvious. Michigan fans, football fans that is, are sick of people leaving, period. And two, many people, not all, but many are starting to grumble at why Martin hired someone who was so radically different in his approach to football. I am sure the alumnus who liked a guy like...Mr. Best Damn Football Team Ever....are saying,"I told you this was the more rocky road." But there are those pointing to WVU and their turnaround into Big East monster and Sugar Bowl supermen. Either way, when you have a guy transfer in, and then out...you as a fan really don't want to watch the guy leave. And yet no one is really there to help the kid on the bus or say thanks either as he leaves. All you can offer up is a blank stare and a disjointed goodbye wave.....which was the look Threet had on his face all year long anyway come to think of it. I think Steven deserves not only an apology but a thanks from all of us. I will say that I personally was not impressed when I saw McGee's comments and Smiths comments on MGOBLUE.com referring to Pat White. I hope the 4star 6'0 Forcier is their guy.

markusr2007

February 18th, 2009 at 8:03 PM ^

Forcier will start for Michigan in the opener vs. Western Michigan. The only thing that might change that is if Nick Sheridan made major improvements in both his throwing strength and throwing accuracy during the offseason. I have my doubts. While Forcier is only a freshman, he is the real deal for the offense that RR runs. And I'm very high on Denard Robinson. He is going to excite a lot of fans in Michigan, believe me. Both QB have good arms, quickness to escape, good throwing accuracy, and perhaps most importantly - a knack for making big plays. The key will be coaching them not to do too much, play the role of point guard, and let the quark particles at slotback rip away at the edges. To me the UM QB situation isn't going to be the most important observation of Michigan football 2009. The most interesting thing to watch will be how having a mobile QB under center will change the response of defenses and the performance of the UM OL and the inside running game of Minor, Brown and *insert new guy*. Sheridan will likely be UM's 3rd string QB and a nice player-coach for the younger guys.

The FannMan

February 18th, 2009 at 9:56 PM ^

He was a walk on. But there has always been some speculation about that. I believe that he was given a scholarship pretty quickly and its not like his family was hurting for cash. The theory goes that Michigan made him a "walk on" to get another kid in and gave him the first scholarship that opened up. I don't pretend to know if this is legit or not. If anyone has the skinny, I'd love to hear it.

Don

February 18th, 2009 at 9:08 PM ^

It's been a long time since we had a coach that most of us would call an SOB. All of us got used to the cranky but grandfatherly ways of Carr, the bland meat-and-potatoes personality of Moeller, and the somewhat mellowed Bo in his later years. I share the nervous discomfort over the possibility that RR was not exactly going out of his way to meet with Threet or his family, and I can understand their negative reactions if this was the case. However, it's instructive to keep our own revered past in mind. Most of us know the general details, but it's helpful to review them. This is from a 1996 interview Bo had with a short-lived sports publication called Blitz: BO: "I came in and instituted an extremely rigorous summer training program–there had been none–and everyone told me it wouldn’t work, that people wouldn’t go for that in Ann Arbor. The team had a reputation for having good talent, but being soft. I did have some attrition, but the real football players stayed. I was harder on that first Michigan team–which included Dan Dierdorf–than I ever was on any other group, partly because I was so driven by my own ambition. I killed them. I ran them into the ground." Doesn't sound like it was a picnic. Was Bo solicitous of the sizeable number of guys who decided to leave? Did he shake their hands and wish them well with a pat on the back? Doesn't sound like it, judging from this excerpt from Bacon's book on Bo: "I was prepared for some attrition when I became Michigan's coach. I can honestly say we did not lose a guy who really could have helped us. I didn't lose any sleep over anyone who quit that spring of 1969." Had there been an internet back in 1969, you can be assured that we would have been treated to more than a few disgruntled players moaning on Facebook and on their blogs about the unfair, poor treatment they suffered at the hands of this bastard Schembechler, who didn't treat them with the dignity and respect that Bump Elliott did. I'm NOT saying that Threet is a quitter; I think he made a rational decision that was in his own best interests as he sees them. I wish he'd stayed for the good of the team, but I can understand why he'd leave. What I am saying is that we have to accept the fact that Rich Rodriguez may be a very unpleasant man to have to deal with if you're one of his players. That is hardly a new phenomenon in the world of big-time football. I'd bet that the percentage of highly successful coaches who are not raging assholes at least some of the time is very small.

dmccoy

February 18th, 2009 at 10:26 PM ^

As far as FCS schools go, NDSU is no joke. They've outplayed Minnesota for the last two years (winning once). It's nearby and it's a power school at the FCS level.