PLEASE, someone explain the "Brian Kelly is scum" case. It's oft-repeated and rarely documented. Links to articles or any sort of evidence beyond anonymous message-board posts are preferred.
Brian Kelly's Character issues - please help
Being a GVSU grad, I've held some pride in seeing Kelly climb the coaching ranks and kick butt everywhere he's been. Little Allendale, MI has churned out great football team after great football team because of Kelly's efforts.
Now, having said that, I *have* heard these same rumblings about his "character" and such...probably the same kind that have been brought up in regards to RR. But for serious, what specific things are we talking? I have heard his temper is second to none (Hi, I'm Irish), same going for his language (once again: Hi, I'm Irish).
I was thinking the same thing, in that it sounds like so many people calling out RR when there is no actual evidence to show it.
Probably because he worked for Gary Hart.
I hate unsubstantiated rumors. If he's dirty, he's dirty. Why doesn't someone come out and say it?
It's kind of like the "Les Miles Sleep Over Rumor". I heard this. I heard that. I'm not in a position to say anything, but...I mean dang, if he banged someone's wife, why can't someone go on record with it?
we don't know. I worked with a guy briefly who was friends with some the GVS players when Kelly was there. He said the players generally did not like Kelly and that the "F" bomb was routine (like RR on the latter, I know).
I'm a student at Central right now. I was here when he left. It wasn't pretty.
I've worked for the football team, and have heard a lot of the players just flat hated him. I don't know if its every really been a documented fact, but I know from talking and hearing from people who were in close contact with him he wasn't the nicest guy. Mind you though this is coming from the players who each day change their mind as to how they feel about the head coach.
I think a lot of it has to do with Kelly opting for CMU over GVSU and the same with Cincinnati over CMU. A little better opportunity...he just left and pissed off a lot of people when he did.
No hard feelings here though, he's doing a lot better when he's at, good luck where ever he ends up!
Yes, but can you fault a guy for moving up to a better job w/ better pay? I mean, I love my co-workers, they are a great group of guys, but if I get offered a job with more pay, more responsibility, and more rewards, sorry, fellas, but I will see you on the flip side.
Well, a handful of his players did beat somebody to death. That was beyond his control but it sure doesn't look good. To some people I'm sure that the incident shows he's willing to recruit kids with character issues as long as they can help him win. (I think that sort of thing is bunk, but people are idiots)
When talking about the murder he said this about the players involved: “A number of them were African Americans that had been in that culture of violence.” That generated an uproar and labeled him a racist. I guess there was also a Free Press article implying that he was involved in a murder cover up, but i can't find it.
Here's a CMU article talking about the Freep article.
FYI.. The primary player(s) involved in the CMU murder ordeal were also NOT BK's recruits. He inherited them from Debord, no less. And he sent his star player packing for another program when it was obvious his connection to the murder was sticky enough to make CMU look bad.
Sorry, I definitely should have known that. I wasn't trying to perpetuate rumors or pass along bad info.
As a huge proponent of a BK hire last year I researched this long and hard. I think I read every possible bit of info that was out on the web pertaining to the CMU murder investigation, which seems to be the only publicly discussed sticking point with BK. This has been covered at length on this blog so I won't rehash. BK is a dem who called a spade a spade and that rubbed some people the wrong way. His analysis was right on and harmless.
Outside of that, I have found absolutely nothing else. I will be surprised if someone here posts something to the contrary.
If ND, PSU or WASH pass on BK then I'll believe there are some skeletons in the closet we don't know about that any school should be george o' leery about (e.g. stuff like a catholic guy drinking problem, DUI's, etc.)
For now I've concluded that MSU passed on him b/c he wasn't the kind of stable, hard ass coach the program needed. UCLA interviewed him but inevitably hired another strong coach with alma mater ties to the program. Nebraska interviewed him but couldn't pass on fan-favorite Pelini a second time. These were the top-notch jobs available. I am purely speculating that BM passed on him primarily b/c of cronyism and poor research. But is that so far fetched given his general bumbling of the search?
BK is also arrogant but so what? He is a hero and already LOVED in Cincinnati, a city I lived in and have friends who are alums.
I'm really hoping some dirt will turn up on BK so I won't continue to harbor resentment towards BM for not at least interviewing him. This would also be a great opportunity for me to look stupid for changing my handle to "BKWSDU" (Brian Kelly Will Someday Destroy Us) after it became obvious he was never going to get an interview.
People close to CMU say 1) the guy was just an absolute asshole to everyone around him, including administrators and alums and 2) he showed very limited concern for the academic well-being of his players. People were saying this while he was still there; this is not just sour grapes from his departure (though the way he left left wasn't pretty either).
Long time has passed since you addressed Kelly's limited concern for the academic well-being of his players. Was there anyone or anything to substantiate that perception?
Obviously there's intense interest in this with the ongoing investigation into possible academic fraud at Notre Dame.
you realize that at 95% of schools, this wouldnt be an issue, right? not because this doesnt happen at other schools, but because notre dame holds themselves to high academic standards for their athletes. I think michigan does too.
so as much as someone might want to say BK doesnt care about his students academics (and he may not), another could say that Notre Dame cares enough to actually punish their kids and give them a life lesson regarding cheating.
a lot of kids at notre dame get kicked out of school/suspended for things you never hear at other schools because the other schools would NEVER report someone cheated in a class. in most cases, those athletic departments are probably writing the papers for them. it makes me laugh that people act like this is so horrible with the other crap that gets swept under the rug, like in the SEC. Real stuff that actually matters get swept under the rug, and you are trying to make notre dame look bad for punishing their athletes for cheating on a test/paper. the media annoys me.
i was a michigan engineer and i knew many kids who cheated in our classes - and they werent athletes.
maybe you should write articles applauding the schools that actually would suspend two of their best players. instead of writing how great of a coach urban meyer is with his 30 arrests and murderers on his team. or maybe bring back the whole carlos hyde fiasco from last year. notre dame will suspend a player for cheating, carlos hyde blatantly hits a girl on camera and plays.. its a joke.
it looks bad for BK beacuse the last few years notre dame had davaris daniels suspended, golson, and now these 4 players. do you think if jameis winston cheated we would hear a damn thing, let alone suspend him for the entire season ala golson last year (who was in the title game the previous year)? people hate on notre dame but at least they punish their players
If he's named Notre Dame's Head Coach, and right now I'm thinking that's a likely outcome, I will hate him will all my cotton pickin maize and blue heart. Because, dammit, it's my right as a Michigan fan to hate every Notre Dame head coach. The tradition continues
part of it is just the general sentiment that if there weren't something really shady about him, he'd have a better job (perhaps in ann arbor or east lansing) by now. that's not really fair, but it might also be right
(not really endorsing this line of reasoning, just saying it's out there)
For the record - I'm not attempting to say it's false - I just hear it referenced and never flat out stated.
If I may echo the sentiments.... I heard from a staff member that worked under Kelly that he was, well... hated.
While being hated has its downside. I believe it was Brian Cook (IIRC) that wrote a glimpse about Mangino and his asshole reputation. He said something to the effect of: You don't turn Kansas into a power by being a nice guy. Agreed. I think the abrasive, unsettling temperament has its advantages, if used correctly.
There's also the flipside: e.g. Joe Mackovic of Arizona creating a mutiny with actions like: telling his TE he's an embarrassment to his father after a dropped pass.
Also A GVSU alum, I worked in the athletic building when Coach Kelly took over for Coach Beck. (incidentally, Coach Beck left to be the DC at Notre Dame) At first impressions, Coach Kelly was an arrogant, young, egomaniac. He offended a lot of people with his attitude. That being said, he didn't have overwhelming talent when he began, but he won. His teams responded.
Moreover, I worked the football games on the sideline. He was hot-headed and foul-mouthed. Of all the coaches I was around, including the opposition, he was the worst!
I can see how he could annoy and offend people, however, NEVER was there any hint of inappropriate behavior in regards to school or NCAA rules!
Basically, he's a self-centered jerk who doesn't cheat, and he WINS! The latter forgives the two former.
Well, Charlie Weis isn't exactly the nicest guy either. RRod is known for being a dick. Players had to learn not to take it personally. How many asshole coaches are there in D-1? Countless. I bet even Lloyd had his moments.
The point is, to succeed, you might have to hurt a few feelings along the way.
Bo was a self centered jerk, too. Coaches don't tend be embrace the fans until they've retired and the attention becomes less "Get the fuck out of my face" and more "I love you because you remember who I am".
I pray to the magical unicorn that he stays at Cinci. He would be a nightmare at ND. I hate those bastards so much!!! He will win wherever he goes! I'm donating to the Mississippi State Coaching Fund. That would be a great place for him!
Iowa State, Nebraska, Michigan State, Tennessee... all have passed on Kelly in the past few years.
Where there's smoke...
Nebraska, State, and Tennessee all got coaches that are a better fit than Kelly.
You're not seriously suggesting Dantonio is a better coach than Kelly was, are you?
Dantonio went .500 in what, three years, at Cincinnati? Brian Kelly is in his second year there and is well over .500. The math. You do it. Seriously.
My 2 cents: I don't think Kelly is better than Dantonio, but what was Cinci's record before Dantonio got there?
No matter how far under .500 Cincinnati may have been before Dantonio, there has been a significant improvement under Brian Kelly. It's pretty hard to convince me that it's just a matter of Dantonio's kids getting the job done -- Kelly's had immediate success wherever he's gone, whereas Dantonio has been looked at as a "good solid Big 10 coach" because he simplifies his game plan and lets the talent on the field do the work.
I realize Dantonio got to hand it to us this year, but it did take MSU until the fourth quarter and it seemed to me it more to do with defensive lapses on our part than any sort of black magic on his part.
But isn't that just an example of building off of someone else's success? Some would say that about Les following Saban's time at LSU. Not that Les is a bad coach, but to say that he's a great coach is debatable. I see the same thing with Kelly.
To say that Kelly has had immediate success wherever he's gone is a little misleading. GVSU was already fairly good when Kelly took over from Beck. During his time there, he had a bunch of 8-3 or 9-3 seasons (which is good), until 1999. Then he went 5–5, 7–4 before having three really great seasons. At CMU, he went 4-7, 6-5 before going 9-4. Given time, he's had success, but, as I note below, I just don't get the hype.
I certainly don't think Les Miles is a genius, but how many years was he removed from Saban before he won the NC?
Serious question, by the way, since I'm somewhat of an alcoholic and I'm at that point of the night where logic stops working.
Saban left in 2004 and then Miles took over, winning the MNC in 2007. He went 11-2 in both 2005 and 2006, 12-2 in 2007. Saban was already going 13-0 and 9-3 before he left, so it's not like the program was in shambles. Hell, Saban won the MNC in 2003.
In any case, I'm done for the night. My only point on Kelly is that I view him much like many of the 4/5 star recruits that are so sought after. They have a helluva lot of potential, but there's so many things that can keep them from achieving greatness. In Kelly I see a lot of potential, but I'm not afraid of him going to ND. At least not yet.
FWIW on virtually all of this:
Most of Cincinatti's skill players last year were actually recruited by Rick Minter, who was the coach before Dantonio. Their QB was a transfer acquired by Kelly.
On this year's team, 9 of the 22 starters were recruited by Kelly, 13 by Dantonio (including their QB and leading receiver).
I don't quite get the hype either. I think that he would be a very solid hire, for any program in the country, but I'm not pissing my pants over it. I think that Rich Rodriguez had a better resume coming to Michigan than Kelly has coming to Notre Shame (if it happens). Kelly's record at Central Michigan was 19-16 (it's 20-16 if you include the victory over Middle Tennessee State in the Motor City Bowl in 2006.)
CMU's success as of late is largely due to the terrible level of football in the MAC in recent years. In the early part of this decade, Toledo, Marshall, Bowling Green, and Miami,OH had some quality teams. They have all sucked lately, so now a MAC powerhouse can't beat Big 10 doormat Purdue. The guy never beat a BCS school at CMU and the closest thing that he has to a signature victory would be last year's blowout over Oregon State or this year's victory over West Virginia or Pitt.
His record is definitely good, but nothing to panic over yet as a Michigan fan.
You're not seriously having problems with reading and comprehension, are you?
I said "better fit" not "better coach." Dantonio is a better fit at Michigan State than Kelly would have been. Dantonio brought stability. He said he's going to stay there and everybody at State believes him. If Kelly had been given that job 2 years ago, he would be leaving for a better job this offseason.
You're not seriously having problems with message board protocol, are you?
It's pretty easy to see that I was replying to the guy above you. Not you.
Go. Scroll up and look. You can do it.
I'm not seriously a complete idiot, am I?
Yeah, it looks like I am. Sorry for being such a douche.
Dantonio took Cinci from C-USA to the Big East. There was one bad transition year in there before . Dantonio's 2006 and Kelly's 2007 Cinci teams were virtually identical, except Douchetonio played a harder schedule with OSU and Va. Tech in the OOC.
Kelly walked into a good situation at Cinci with talent, WVU on the decline post-Rod, and Louisville in decline post-BCS.
Check that math. Kelly's good, but hardly a program savior.
How can you be overrated consistently winning Conference and National Championships! He wins! Does that mean winning is overrated? They all may have passed on him because he's an ass, but his record speaks for itself!
Seriously, and it's not outside the realm of possibility that Cinci goes undefeated in a weak Big East and plays for the title.
I didn't look at Kelly closely during Michigan's coaching search, so I don't know that much about him. I understand that he's won at GVSU (a lot), CMU and now Cincy, but I don't get all the hype or fear. He built up CMU over 3 years with one bad season, one mediocre season and one good season. At Cincy, he seemed to inherit a lot from Dantonio.
Does he have any big/signature wins under his belt in D-1? He has some wins in the Big East against some ranked opponents, but also some losses, so it seems like a push to me. Is he an offensive or defensive genius? Does he recruit really well? I haven't seen or heard much on either the last two points.
From what I have seen or heard he's a good coach that will have some success wherever he goes, but I haven't seen anything that says he's a great coach that should be feared. I'm not trying to bag on him or disagree with other people's predictions about his success. I just don't understand it. If someone could explain what I'm missing it would be greatly appreciated.
Just to be that guy, what's to suggest that his success at Cincinnati is due to Dantonio? The players may play the game, but we're talking about an entirely different offensive system for which the players in question were originally recruited and immediate success. Sounds good to me.
Even with how well Dantonio has done this year, I still think he's a bit of a sham.
It looks like we crossed comments (see above). But you bring up a point that I have no knowledge of. How is Kelly's offense different from Dantonio's? Again, I claim complete ignorance on this point. I'm just looking for insight.
I don't offer any opinions on Dantonio, other than he's an ass and I think he's a good fit for MSU (I'll leave it to you as to whether the two are linked).
I agree Kelly has a good track record, but to me his record says he's a good coach, not a great coach. If he goes to ND, I think he'll be better than Weis to the extent of 9-3 seasons and maybe some wins here and there over Michigan, but I don't see him getting to the MNC level.
GVSU: School's first national championships in 2002 & 2003. Coach of the Year 2X's. 41-2 over his final 3 seasons.
CMU: Resurrected the program after Debord drove into the ground. Won first MAC championship in 2006 since 1994. Team won it again in 2007 after he was gone.
Cincinnati: First Big East Championship & BCS bid in school history, 2008 (with Sheridan-like problems at the QB position). Coach of the Year in first season, 2007.
Obviously the difference between good and great is subjective so you can come to your own conclusions. I think there are a handful of coaches who can consistently win the big game, especially championship games. Me personally, I believe that coaches who win national championships, at any level, must be great football coaches.
Tressel won 4 NC's in his 15 years at Youngstown St. Never had any D-1 head coaching experience before taking the OSU job. As mentioned, BK won 2 NC's in 13 years at GVSU. His teams were unstoppable towards the end and it's conceivable he would have picked up a couple more NC's if he'd have stayed a few years longer (matching Tressel's success).
I've heard several interviews BK has done and that's what impresses me most about him. He's very articulate and from what I can tell, very intelligent. Seems to me the best of the best coaches usually have that going for them in any sport.
You have a good point about his success at GVSU. Not that I didn't notice the titles he won there, but you have a valid point about coaches that win an NC (much less 2) at any level of competition. I guess I was focusing more on his time in D-I where he's had success, and should be commended for it, but it hasn’t resonated with me like it has with others (which is the subjectivity you mention).
I haven’t seen any of Kelly’s interviews, so I appreciate your insight there.
If I'm looking for a new coach, I couldn't care less whether he pisses people off or rubs people the wrong way. The demands on a college football coach nowadays are insane. As fans, we demand that a coach win consistently, make sure that his players go to class, don't cheat, and appropriately punish players who break the law. A guy who can accomplish those goals is very rare, regardless of personal style. If you ask the world of a guy, you don't really have much of a right to dictate that he be a nice guy all the time.
OK, so the concensus seems to be this: He's an asshole. But many have spoken of "skeletons" and the like. Being an asshole isn't a skeleton. Bo was an asshole. Nick Saban is, most assuredly, an asshole. It happens.
Many people consider Rich Rod to be an egotistical asshole, too. None of that matters if they're successful.
Les Miles is an asshole, Bo was an asshole, Lloyd was an asshole, etc.
The story I've heard is that (a) he's racist and (b) there were rumblings of some kind of murder cover up or something at CMU. I don't know the details.
EDIT - This article will probably help:
Petty said he doesn’t have anything to say to his football coach, Brian Kelly, who kicked his former teammates Jerry Seymour, Spencer Lewis and James Cooper off the team after they were indicted by the grand jury.
“I should have left when he got here,” Petty said. “He didn’t recruit me. I had no problem with (former) coach (Mike) DeBord. Kelly doesn’t know anyone. I feel absolutely betrayed.”
So...the guy is upset because Kelly kicked him off the team after he was indicted for murder.
Sorry dude, I think every team in the nation wouldn't have you after that.
Ha. The full article kind of explains the "character issues" a bit better, though. Any time five or six football players are involved with murder charges, it's going to reflect poorly on the coach's discipline, etc.
So, I guess Chris Henry and Pac Man Jones reflect poorly on Rich Rod? Larry Harriston on Lloyd Carr? Do you see where this is going, Sommy?
Seriously. I watched, with my own eyes, three Lloyd Carr players (Ray Jackson, Jason Brooks and William Petersen) beat a frat-boy to unconciousness on the sidewalk of State St. with his own laptop because the kid pointed out that they were stealing it from his room.
Here is the Daily article documenting it:
(FWIW, Jason Brooks and previously sexually assaulted someone, and Peterson had previously had the cops called on him because he stole the wallet of a stripper he had in his room)
Moral of the story: If Carson Butler wants your iron, you let him, he needs to iron his goddamn shirt.
No, I don't see where this is going, since I thought the Harrison incident did reflect poorly on Carr, and Chris Henry and Pacman Jones kept their noses relatively clean when they were still playing for West Virginia. Not to mention that none of them were involved with a murder case, which was my original point.
As the obviously more intelligent poster, it is your responsibility to inform the less intelligent posters such as myself of precisely "where this is going."
The point, Sommy, is this:
People want to use Kelly's association with these players (whom, I may add, he didn't recruit - DeBord did) and their conduct to say that he is unqualified to coach at ND, or Michigan, or wherever.
But, no one called for Carr to be fired after three of his players did an eerily similar thing (save for the fact that the cops showed up before they could kill the kid). If the conduct of his players disqualifies Kelly, why didn't the conduct of Michigan players disqualify Carr?