yes plz
The Black Knight Of Michigan Stadium
Filed under:
Michigan Stadium before renovations:
Michigan Stadium (almost) afterwards:
Cork boat enthusiast, political speechwriter, "Save the Big House" founder, Yale grad, and Hero of Tiananmen Square John Pollack on this transformation:
It’s a lot different and ironically it looks a lot bigger from the outside and it feels a lot smaller from the inside. Going to games there over the last couple years, as the boxes have risen–they are so out of scale with bowl itself that it makes the bowl seem small. And that’s not positive.
Before, as you approached the stadium there was this sense of anticipation whether you’d been there 100 times or never had been there. Because even if you knew what was coming, you walk in and this mighty bowl unfolds before you. Now you’re walking up to two corporate-looking structures and when you walk in the bowl is diminished because the proportions are all wrong. Those boxes are literally monuments to self-aggrandizement and unfortunately they diminish the stadium. …
The university has greatly diminished the iconic stadium in the United States of America.
That's from an MVictors interview of the HOTS himself. "Corporate-looking." What does this mean? It means Pollack is a certain kind of leftist. As the renovations have gone up the level of concerned emails in my inbox has dropped to zero, as the structures are both attractive and, with Newsterbaan, part of a unified look for the athletic campus based on Yost that cannot get to Crisler soon enough. The stadium now looks like something other than a hole in the ground. But if you're so invested you could see Michigan Stadium as "the iconic stadium in the United States of America" you clearly aren't going to ever back down.
This site's been over this before, making the case for luxury boxes when a reasonable questioner—of the variety that seems not to exist any more—wondered what that case was. In short, extracting exorbitant amounts of money from relatively few patrons is better for everyone because those people are funding the modernization of the stadium and making the place more intimidating than it was before because instead of their silence we get the fairly significant acoustic benefits of the structures. Also maybe they won't yell at me to sit down as much.
The case against the boxes as made by Pollack is a breathtaking combination of delusion ("One of the great things about college football, especially Michigan football, is that it is a great public space—a place where autoworkers and millionaires can come together to cheer on their team") and arrogance ("Michigan doesn't need to keep up with the Joneses. We are the Joneses") that rests largely on the idea that Bill Martin, who seemingly thought about nothing but money during his tenure at Michigan, is getting the money wrong. A source close to the project has convincingly debunked these ideas in a detailed post on the renovations and a response to a mailbag question. Michigan has to renovate the stadium after years and years of Duderstadt-inspired neglect. They can pay for this renovation by adding a surcharge to tickets for 20 years or by putting in boxes that will do more than pay for themselves and set Michigan up to compete with the likes of Ohio State and its massive spending.
Meanwhile, the "grass roots" effort to stop the renovations is as natural as the turf they just put in. Allow myself to quote myself:
There was one loud, PR-savvy group with no grassroots support that employed disingenuous political rhetoric in an attempt to stall a project that it seems like the vast bulk of the fanbase supports. Three guys with impressive names and a website do not a movement make, and when you are persistently, uselessly annoying you shouldn't expect perpetual fruitless audiences. Not once in this process did Pollack attempt to measure the sentiment of the fanbase, or if he did the results he got back were disconcerting and quickly buried; "but but but Fielding Yost" is not an argument that sways anyone with decision-making powers, no matter how many newspapers it appears in.
Unfortunately, no one has undertaken that measurement; in its absence all we have to go on are the constant "I was by the stadium so I took 20 pictures" posts that pop up on message boards across the Michigan internet and the almost-unanimous excitement about the addition on practical, aesthetic, and auditory grounds.
As for the sanctified tradition we're tossing aside, here's a quote from MVictors's HTTV 2010 (buy now!) piece on the construction of the stadium I wish I'd seen earlier so I could have put it in every post I've made on the subject. It's Yost speaking to Bennie Oosterbaan after the dedication game in 1927:
Bennie, do you know what the best thing about that new stadium is? Eighty-five thousand people paid five dollars apiece for their seats -- and Bennie, they had to leave the seats there!
July 13th, 2010 at 1:20 PM | 
When did you...
When did you...
July 13th, 2010 at 1:21 PM |
Here's what I get out of all
Here's what I get out of all
Here's what I get out of all of this. Yost wanted all seats to be $5. I think that means we should make that permanent policy. All seats in Michigan Stadium should be $5. No more, no less.
/pollack-logic
July 13th, 2010 at 1:30 PM |
How about $5 tickets just for MGoBlog members?
How about $5 tickets just for MGoBlog members?
After all, we're the "true" fans.
All rational Michigan fans should be applauding the implosion of the rest of the conference because [MIDDLE FINGERS IN ALL DIRECTIONS.] - EDSBS
July 13th, 2010 at 1:35 PM |
Yea, but you have to have
Yea, but you have to have
Yea, but you have to have 1000 officially licensed MGoPoints. Sorry, gotta keep the trolls out of the stadium.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:41 PM |
Can we liveblog
Can we liveblog
on the big screen?
July 13th, 2010 at 3:03 PM |
The AD has actually been kind
The AD has actually been kind
The AD has actually been kind enough to allow The Shredder to use it for his Midnight discussions.
I have a Fandom Endurance III merit badge
July 13th, 2010 at 1:32 PM |
As the renovations have gone
As the renovations have gone
As the renovations have gone up the level of concerned emails in my inbox has dropped to zero, as the structures are both attractive and, with Newsterbaan, part of a unified look for the athletic campus based on Yost that cannot get to Crisler soon enough.
Brian, you hit the nail on the head here. I was concerned when the renovations were first being discussed, but who could dislike how they've turned out?
I think that Pollack has such a big ego that he refuses to admit that he may have been wrong, so he continues to bitch and moan in any way he can, even if it involves using incorrect data.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:37 PM |
Fielding Yost is the Man
Fielding Yost is the Man
Being a Civil Engineer (like myself) he designed the Big House foundation with the intention of adding many more seats. He even anticipated the addition of lights in the future and left the proper space for electrical conduits. Yost was a visionary (and apparently not as in tune with tradition as Pollack is).
"Relax you panic monger" -Megatron
July 13th, 2010 at 1:59 PM |
Exactly
Exactly
True visionaries who create iconic masterpieces, like Memorial Stadium, plan ahead and expect evolution and improvements. It makes me think of the constitution and how some people are obsessed with being true to the original founders intent. The irony is that the constitution's greatest strength is its ability to adapt to the times, ie the ability to make amendments.
July 13th, 2010 at 6:53 PM |
so true
so true
about the constitution. the supreme court on the other hand...
July 13th, 2010 at 2:03 PM |
from what i've heard over the
from what i've heard over the
from what i've heard over the years, Yost planned on having the stadium seat 200,000 people but he was laughed at because nobody thought that many people would ever go to a game. But i think the foundation is built specifically to support future expansion.
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia - but only slightly less well-known is this: Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
July 13th, 2010 at 2:14 PM |
See this earlier...
See this earlier...
...post of mine for a discussion of that topic. You are essentially correct.
LSA '89 - MBB Natl Champions, Big 10/Rose Bowl Champions | @MGoShoe
July 13th, 2010 at 1:38 PM |
Now if they can just
Now if they can just
update the score board. The score board we have now is ridiculously small in comparison to the stadium and out dated to say the least. Maybe something like Texas has. A big HD screen would be awesome plus it would hold in even more crowd noise.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:41 PM |
They should erect a dome and
They should erect a dome and
They should erect a dome and put in a giant 90" HD screen, like at the Dallas Cowboys' stadium.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:42 PM |
This is technically feasible
This is technically feasible
This is technically feasible now that Zoltan is gone.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:43 PM |
90 feet or 90 inches?
90 feet or 90 inches?
90 feet or 90 inches?
Nobody home...
July 13th, 2010 at 2:18 PM |
heh
heh
No, we're not gonna f**king do Stone'enge again!
July 13th, 2010 at 2:21 PM |
(No subject)
(No subject)
July 13th, 2010 at 6:49 PM |
Best Line
Best Line
I think that the problem may have been...that there was a Stonehenge monument on the stage that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf.
I don't care how many times I watch it, that line will always get me laughing, uncontrollably.
"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk
July 13th, 2010 at 6:47 PM |
Inches
Inches
I think he meant tv. And he meant they should put it up in my living room.
"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk
July 13th, 2010 at 1:39 PM |
You forgot to mention: This
You forgot to mention: This
You forgot to mention: This man has a brick. Near Desmond's brick. It's an important brick. His voice will be heard, dammit.
July 13th, 2010 at 2:18 PM |
I may have to check out that
I may have to check out that
I may have to check out that dude's brick. Sounds pretty cool.
Give it to Wheatley!
July 13th, 2010 at 2:50 PM |
Did I read somewhere
Did I read somewhere
that Roethlisberger peed on the Pollack family brick? Or was that just a rumor?
Taking it one week at a time
July 13th, 2010 at 1:43 PM |
corporate-looking
corporate-looking
corporate-looking
That comment says a lot. People who were against stadium changes inevitably fell upon the good ol' Ann Arbor leftism as the reasons for being against the stadium. I had an acquaintance and UM grad tell me that the fact that rich and poor alike had to sit in the elements together was, and I quote, " a great social equalizer." I guess he forgot about the press box and the VIPs who got to sit there.
People forget that this is not the first time the stadium was expanded and forget that Fielding Yost himself had envisioned a day where the stadium would need to be expanded, and had the stadium designed accordingly. Supposedly Yost wanted a stadium to hold 150k people originally.
I was ambivalent about the changes but the addition of vastly improved first aid station, restrooms, people traffic flow, etc. make it worthwhile IMO. If wealthy people want to donate big bucks to the UM so they can watch football, that's fine with me.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:41 PM |
traditionalist
traditionalist
I'd consider myself to be a bit of a traditionalist and was opposed to the expansion. That being said, I think the renovation looks great. I couldn't have imagined that the new work would look so natural. It feels like it's been there forever. The blue of the luxury box facade is a perfect match for the tradition of Michigan football. It is, in short, the opposite of the dreaded Halo (or, for that matter, the tacky, low-grade, minor league baseball-esque piped in music).
The only thing left (ok, other than updated scoreboard/screens) is the return of the classic "MICHIGAN STADIUM" letters to the facade over the 50 yard line. Go Blue!
July 13th, 2010 at 2:01 PM |
That
That
and a Big Ten title would be nice ;-)
July 13th, 2010 at 1:42 PM |
I like the fact that the
I like the fact that the
I like the fact that the Towers make the bowl 'feel' smaller, more intimate. I hadn't really been able to put my finger on this fact until it was pointed out (by Pollack no less). But, yeah, his "arguments" are only so much bluster at this point.
Nobody home...
July 13th, 2010 at 2:36 PM |
What about the place looks
What about the place looks
What about the place looks cheap? I'm not an architect, so I have always been a bit perplexed at this accusation. To me, brick is a style that never gets dated and, if done well, can look excellent, which is how I feel the stadium looks now.
I'm kind of curious what the alternatives to brick would be. Concrete? Sheet metal?
Don't neg the guy for his opinion. At least he has some reasoning for it.
July 13th, 2010 at 5:16 PM |
Oops
Oops
I actually misread his statement about the cheap looking nature of the stadium...I agree with that portion. I also understand his comment about the "hole-in-the-ground" nature of the original stadium as a purely functional response to the needs of a football contest.
On the other hand, think about the theatrical nature of football, America, and man in general. Human beings love theatrical spectacles. If they didn't there would be no 4th of July fireworks and Avatar would have flopped at the box office. Like it or not, a Michigan football game is a theatrical spectacle and the building serves an important function in that spectacle. I believe that the new brick facades will serve to enhance the spectacle of Michigan football for all involved and are therefore a welcome improvement.
"Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." -Bill Belichick
July 13th, 2010 at 6:53 PM |
Yes, it's getting "Artists" to get creative...
Yes, it's getting "Artists" to get creative...
...that get you things like the Halo. It needed to be pretty, and functional. Which it is. Anything more, and you're setting yourself up for something half the people hate, and half love. Or worse, something architect geeks love, but everyone else hates.
"I love him, he's a great coach, he's a great mentor, he's a great friend. He's every single thing you want a college coach to be, and he does it flawlessly." -David Molk
July 13th, 2010 at 9:52 PM |
Brick as easy
Brick as easy
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason why they used brick and the architectural style they did is because they were specifically told to model it after Yost (which is brick) so that there was a cohesive look. It's kind-of pissy to say the designers took the easy route when they were just doing what the client wanted. And I like that Yost, Michigan Stadium and (soon) Chrisler look like they belong together.
July 14th, 2010 at 1:12 AM |
Some good points but...
Some good points but...
While it would be cool on some level to have a big name designer turn the Big House into an architectural icon, there's a huge risk in that. Sometimes you get a masterpiece, sometimes you get an eyesore (which would have been a quarter billion dollar eyesore, in this case). All too often, buildings with architectural significance sacrifice function for form - okay for an art museum, but a potential disaster for stadium goers. This is far from inevitable of course, but a real risk nonetheless. In the best of times, "significant" architecture is often polarizing, and, especially with "modern" (at the time of their creation) designs, may well look hopelessly out of date in a few years (see Schembechler hall). The oversized nature of a stadium can overstate this and end up looking cartoony. Ultra-modern stadiums are all the rage these days, but I wonder how we'll feel about the Bird's Nest, University of Phoenix Stadium, or whatever that thing in Johannesburg is supposed to be in 2050. Too me, those designs, in all their forced iconic glory, are far more "corporate" and, dare I say, "cheap", precisely because they tried so bloody hard to make a statement.
For better or worse, understated red-brown brick is the defining feature of many of Michigan's most iconic buildings - the Union, Hill, Yost, the Grad Library... It suits the athletic campus, and it suits the fall colors and rolling hills of Ann Arbor.
That said, they could have gotten away with a bit of flair without going overboard - maybe take some design cues from the Union or Hill - a bit more contrasting color, maybe a more interesting roofline (am I the only one who'd like a bit of limestone and some nice copper splashes fading into a rich green patina over the years, a la Hill and Hatcher?). But it fits very nicely with the style of Yost and the IM building, though a more modern interpretation of these. Not least of all, it also matches the look of the brick that's already around the field. Actually, my least favorite part of the redesign is the solid, flat, metal and glass facade of the boxes - the look of the interior, particularly those vast expanses of dark blue sheet metal, is a bit jarring compared to the brick exterior.
All that said, the place looks like a football stadium and will still look like a football stadium 100 years from now - and that's the important thing. Is it "iconic"? Not really. Is it "safe"? Certainly. But I kind of like that it just blends in - until it's filled with 110,000 screaming Wolverines. Its look will never outshine its purpose, which is to host Michigan Football - and isn't that as it should be?
July 13th, 2010 at 3:04 PM |
Imposing
Imposing
I think the renovations make the stadium more imposing and the brick is a classic look. I don't know what else they could have done. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I sometimes wonder if people are criticizing simply for the sake of doing so. I can't wait for the first ABC/BTN flyover right before the beat down of UCONN.
HELLO HEISMAN!
July 13th, 2010 at 11:03 PM |
I've got nothing against
I've got nothing against
I've got nothing against brick (as opposed to what? Stalinist poured concrete? Office park chic I-beams-and-glass? Perhaps something with a Spanish feel to it: clay tiles and stucco . . . )
But I do like the way you capture the essence of the pre-luxury tower days. Something may have been gained by the boxes, but something was lost, too.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:54 PM |
A Stanford Man is lecturing us about UM values
A Stanford Man is lecturing us about UM values
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but John Pollack has consistently presented himself as though he were somehow directly connected to the University of Michigan. Somehow he never seems to find the time to mention he attended Stanford, not the university he purports to be such a supporter of.
July 13th, 2010 at 1:59 PM |
Black Knight?...
Black Knight?...
...Perhaps. Don Quixote? Yea, verily.
LSA '89 - MBB Natl Champions, Big 10/Rose Bowl Champions | @MGoShoe
July 13th, 2010 at 2:22 PM |
Monty Python's Black Knight, right?
Monty Python's Black Knight, right?
That is who I figured it was a reference to, in which case I think it is perfect.
Have at you!
July 13th, 2010 at 2:28 PM |
But of course...
But of course...
...thanks for reminding me. The results of the renovation are so much better than what many expected. These facts are Pollack's own mere flesh wounds.
LSA '89 - MBB Natl Champions, Big 10/Rose Bowl Champions | @MGoShoe
July 13th, 2010 at 2:02 PM |
Space
Space
I am delighted with the renovations that have been made to date, but not for aesthetics. They will help pay for the renovations that will FINALLY be made in the coming off season that actually matter to me -- more butt space in the bleachers and more shoulder room in the aisles.
I will come to two games from Chicago this fall, as usual. But my level of enjoyment has degraded significantly over the last few years and it has nothing to do with the quality of football. I'm sick and tired of standing sideways for a whole game. And, leaving my low-end-zone seat at halftime, peeing, buying a hotdog and missing the third quarter kickoff!
These were not designed capacity problems the last time they painted numbers on the benches. It's just that our fellow americans didnt' have such big asses back then.
Halleluia for seating and aisle renovations in 2010/11. Only then will I truly love the stadium again.
July 13th, 2010 at 2:06 PM |
concede that, architecturally, the place looks cheap now.
concede that, architecturally, the place looks cheap now.
You use the word "concede" as though you are wearily admitting the final awful, uncontestable truth which the whole world has long accepted. You're simply stating your own opinion, and it's one that many, many people disagree pretty strongly with.
July 13th, 2010 at 2:19 PM |
Brian, how did you fail bring up
Brian, how did you fail bring up
Brian, how did you fail bring up this piece of douchebaggery:
Pollack: I haven’t bought a [plane] ticket for the UConn game–it’s not as compelling of an opponent as I’m accustomed to. I don’t have the good fortune to go back to every game since I live in New York so I try to cherry pick the old favorites.
Every game that I go to, I generally go with my parents who are season ticket holders. We have our ritual—we walk from campus, we stop by my uncle’s tailgate, and then we go touch our brick which is right by the eagle and not far from Desmond Howard’s brick. We say ‘Go Blue’, and then go to the game. You know what? I’m still going to do that and I’m still going to cheer for the Wolverines whether the stadium has been diminished or not.
LOL
No question, Jim.
July 13th, 2010 at 2:26 PM |
15 minutes
15 minutes
and it looks like Pollack's 15 minutes of fame are up.
that quote is about the worst thing i've ever heard.
I am not really Coach Schiano. -Coach Schiano on Mgoblog
July 13th, 2010 at 2:34 PM |
Would I be a bad person if I
Would I be a bad person if I
Would I be a bad person if I told a belt sander to the stadium tomorrow and found said brick? Or just a nice plain brick to replace it?
July 13th, 2010 at 2:39 PM |
yes
yes
Yes, you would. We've all got a right to have our opinions on the program/stadium/coach and be fans just the same.
July 13th, 2010 at 7:26 PM |
What a swell guy!
What a swell guy!
uncompelling opponents...
"I'm still going to cheer for the Wolverines whether the stadium has been diminished or not."
That's loyalty.
At least he's eloquent about it!
Wolverine Nation Unite!
July 13th, 2010 at 2:24 PM |
Speaking of the stadium...
Speaking of the stadium...
...tomorrow's Big House open house will feature its own twitter feed.
Follow @UMNewsService 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. Wednesday, July 14, for live tweets and photos from the Michigan Stadium renovation open house.
The public can also view the Big House renovations in person between 6 a.m. and 8 p.m. Wednesday, and join in on the Twitter conversation using the hashtag #BigHouse.
LSA '89 - MBB Natl Champions, Big 10/Rose Bowl Champions | @MGoShoe
July 13th, 2010 at 2:24 PM |
I don't get it, "traditionalists"...
I don't get it, "traditionalists"...
Call me a big supporter of the renovation. Now we can have modern conveniences and a more comfortable environment. The life cycle of the Big House has been extended 25-50 years.
To me, the most important component of the renovation? Pardon me for shouting, but, ahem -- IMPACT ON NOISE! We all know Michigan Stadium has a reputation for being the home of the quietest 110,000 people you'll ever find, and I've got to think that the new suite towers will give the team the kind of SurroundSound experience that translates to a bigger home field advantage.
Honestly, IMHO the first time a visiting QB (not from tOSU, ND or Little Brother) has to burn all their TOs because they can't call a play, the renovation investment would be worth it.
July 13th, 2010 at 3:53 PM |
i know you mentioned not ND
i know you mentioned not ND
but didn't we do this to jimmah like 2 or 3 times this past year? that was my 4th season watching football at uofm and that was the first time i saw us to that to an opposing qb. renovations? worth it
Rudy watches inspirational movies about Shawn Hunwick
July 13th, 2010 at 2:45 PM |
Not having been part of the debate...
Not having been part of the debate...
since I have to watch the games from some distance, and on TV, this post clarified lots for me. I admit I had some creepycrawly reactions to the idea of luxury boxes when I first heard about them, but if the big spenders don't want to mingle with the hoi polloi but are willing to pay so we of the humble hoi polloi can afford to sit down where it's fun, I'm okay with that. Much better than what's happening in the new pro stadiums (at least in my current neighborhood), asking 30-year season ticket holders to ante up $20,000-$30,000 for the rights for the non-box tix they've had for years, and even then raising the ticket prices themselves beyond the budget of most of their fans, all to put up new stadiums those fans won't be able to enter.
Thanks also for the history, that the stadium was built in a way that allowed for its expansion/improvement without having to tear it down every few years and start again from scratch.
As for architecture, I've always been fond of brick. IMHO, will look a lot better with the autumn leaves of A2 than plastic or glass.
July 13th, 2010 at 3:10 PM |
Interesting to read
Interesting to read
If I was not told there was dissension regarding this topic, I would never guess that there was any reason for debate. I guess that is part of the "maize and blue divide" that is being spoke of so frequently right now. I think the renovations are awesome, like the awesomest thing ever aside from pizza. It is interesting to hear that some people do not agree.
...start working on this piece? Talk about rapid response!
LSA '89 - MBB Natl Champions, Big 10/Rose Bowl Champions | @MGoShoe