Big Ten Expansion: Grid Of Judgment Comment Count

Brian

The Crimson Quarry has an excellent post running down candidates in detail that sections of this post are derived from.

The Fringe

Schools that have been brought up at one time or another but are not worth a fuller discussion for various reasons.

Schools that would say no

Texas. Blame those Texas newspaper articles describing UT's flirtation with the Big Ten after the SWC exploded, but Texas comes up whenever this topic does. Despite the travel involved the Big Ten would do that in a heartbeat; Texas is a fantastic school that opens up copious television markets and is a national power in both football and basketball.

Texas would not, though. They are the master and commander of an entire conference with weak revenue sharing relative to the Big Ten. They have longstanding rivalries with virtually everyone in the Big 12 South. And their nationally competitive baseball program would be badly hurt by joining what's basically a mid-major conference.

Nebraska. Massive football tradition and geographically somewhat feasible but there's no way the Cornhuskers would give up a 100 years of rivalries for the Big Ten. Have no links to anyone in the conference.

Notre Dame. If the Big Ten is doing this when Notre Dame's NBC contract has six years to run, the Irish are not in the mix.

Schools that don't offer enough

Iowa State. Why on earth would anyone want Iowa State in their conference? No TV market and no success in either major sport. If Iowa doesn't want them, and I'm sure they don't, why would anyone else?

West Virginia. Tier III institution would probably get rejected by the presidents. Good programs in football and basketball but brings zero recruiting base and zero television market. If the only considerations were on-field performance they'd be the obvious #1 choice but all their peripherals are poor.

Cincinnati. Legitimate traditional basketball power (two national titles in the 60s to go with the Huggins era) and nouveau riche football school, but probably destined for a major drop with Brian Kelly out the door. Academically, a non-starter: it's a tier III commuter school.

Louisville. Geographically and athletically plausible but a tier III institution.

Prime Candidates

Rutgers. Hypothetically brings New Jersey and New York markets into play, except few really care about Rutgers when they're not good and they've rarely been good. Very rarely. Basketball program a nonentity; football was a nationwide punchline until the arrival of Greg Schiano, at which point they've had one standout year and a bunch of middling ones that end in nondescript bowl games.

mizzou-logo

Missouri. Geographically adjacent and has longstanding, if on-and-off, rivalry with Illinois. Good, not great, state school that would be the worst-ranked school in the league but not by much, especially after a post-CIC bump. Brings a new, large TV market into play. Also brings Don Draper with it.

Negatives: neither football or basketball is the sort of program that brings any wow factor, though the football program is a solid and developing one under Gary Pinkel. And Mizzou has been in the Big 8/12 since its inception. Fevered rivalry with Kansas and the sort of non-rivalry with Nebraska that saw Mizzou on the end of dozens of heinous beatings to the point where if Pinkel hadn't run up the score in the final year of Callahan he would have taken he would have taken heat for it.

Would Mizzou go? I mentioned them on the radio yesterday, at which point someone who grew up in the area called in to cast doubt on the possibility the Tigers would even consider leaving the Big 12. He certainly knows better than I do. On the other hand, some Mizzou folks have started a pro-Big Ten blog and the Rock M Nation thread discussing BHGP's discussion of a potential move is split down the middle. The local paper's Mizzou beatwriter, however, is adamant:

RT @Kevin_Baum What's your take on mizzou's chances of joining the big 10? ... To quote Dean Wormer, Zero Point Zero

I don't know. I expect that Mizzou would at least flirt with the Big Ten in an effort to get the Big 12's revenue sharing increased.

Pitt_mediumPitt. Obvious natural rivalry with Penn State that makes the Nittany Lions less of an odd duck in the league both geographically and culturally. Brings another TV market, though Pittsburgh is an area that already gets the BTN. Rich tradition in football and has been intermittently decent over the last decade; basketball program has recently built itself into a national power but has little in the way of history.

Scholastically Pitt would be an average Big Ten team, which is very strong relative to other serious candidates. And there's no question whether they would jump or not: Pitt would kill to get in the Big Ten. They'd get to play Penn State, they'd get a ton more football revenue, the basketball would be fine, and they could play WVU out of conference.

Negatives: they play in a sterile NFL stadium that's usually half-empty, though a Big Ten fan with road-trip inclinations could view that as a positive. And adding Mizzou or Syracuse or whatever puts another state in the BTN footprint; Pittsburgh doesn't. And you could see this hurting Big Ten schools' Pittsburgh-area recruiting. Now players in the area can pick between the Big Ten or staying close to home; in the future they can have both.

Syracuse. Geographically somewhat awkward; football program has totally imploded since Paul Pasqualoni fell off. On the other hand, an excellent school (almost exactly on par with Pitt) with a powerhouse basketball program. Their location is a blessing and a curse: it's far away but also makes the Big Ten considerably more important in New York (state, not City).

Syracuse might like it in the Big East enough to shoot down an overture, though. They're decidedly more eastern than a lot of Big East schools.

Chart?

Grid! Grid of judgment!

A legend: teams are graded on a 3 point scale, where 0 is uncatchable a factor so poor it disqualifies the program in question, 1 is is an active detriment, 2 is "meh", and 3 is a positive. The "average" column does not include "willingness," since it's an attempt to judge the attractiveness of the teams only.

"Other sports" rankings derived from Director's Cup standings.

School Willingness Academics FB BB Other Loc Market Footprint Avg.
Texas 0 3 3 3 3 1 3 3 2.7
Nebraska 0 1 3 1 2 1 1 1 1.4
Notre Dame 0 3 3 2 3 3 3 3 2.9
Maryland 1 2 1 3 3 1 2 2 2.0
Iowa State 3 1 0 0 1 3 0 0 0.7
West Virginia 3 0 3 3 2 3 0 1 1.7
Cincinnati 3 0 2 3 1 3 1 1 1.6
Louisville 3 0 1 3 2 3 2 3 2.0
Rutgers 3 2 1 1 1 1 3 3 1.7
Syracuse 2 3 1 3 1 1 2 2 1.9
Pitt 3 3 2 3 1 3 2 2 2.3
Missouri 1 1 2 1 3 3 3 3 2.3

Your winners amongst the even distantly feasible: Pitt and Missouri, and Missouri is only distantly feasible. Both are clearly poor options relative to Notre Dame, but that ain't happening. Your projected 12th Big Ten school: Pitt.

Comments

Token_sparty

December 17th, 2009 at 9:17 AM ^

I must bow to your personal experience. I'll also bow to your homage to the Steiner Brothers, and possibly, mullets. I went to the UToronto web site, wherein I was appalled by the football field; there are HIGH SCHOOL teams that would be embarrassed by playing on that field. I figured they'd have to play at the Rogers Centre, but who'd watch? So yes, in the end, the media market is perfect but hampered by a distinct lack of talent and interest. I will take my Frankensteiner like a man.

Wazoo

December 16th, 2009 at 8:45 AM ^

Sorry if I missed a comment on this, but if they go to 12 teams, I think the 12th football game of the season should be an additional B10 game. Otherwise, we're up to 3 teams who each team doesn't see each year. Personally, I'd like to see the 12th game become a B10 game now instead of everyone playing the Little Sisters of the Poor. I know it decreases the likelihood of conference teams winning 6 games, but I think it beats what we have now.

Gene

December 16th, 2009 at 11:40 AM ^

Can't see it. Not only does that decreases bowl eligibility as you say, but it also reduces revenue as you're only filling half the stadiums that week (rather than close to all of them by paying cupcakes to come.)

Simi Maquoketa

December 16th, 2009 at 9:40 AM ^

After readin Brian's take on Nebraska--I was incensed, and lost about 43 seconds of sleep over it. DAMNIT why don't people just listen to me? /sarcasm, bbut not too much Some more Nebraska stuff n' fluff: Nebraska has "no links" to the Big Ten? Barry Alvarez leading the charge? Hey--guess where he played his college football? (Starts with "N") Bob Devanney coached at MSU (a long time ago, but Joe Paterno was probably in his mid 60's and still remembers it) Nebraska and Penn State go WAY back--people here are STILL pissed over the 1981 game (me too--that fucking guy was sooo out of bounds. And I was still living in Michigan at the time!) Nebraska-Michigan? Need I say more? Nebraskans actually love Michigan football (no link, just my impressions from talking to them about it for 25 or so years) I'm going to keep harping on this until the Big Ten blows it out of their ass and actually ends up inviting Temple. Remember, this is the conference that spent 75 years keeping all but ONE of its teams out of bowl games. I wonder how mad the conference migh be at Michigan for being the force that kept Notre Dame out of the Big Ten when they actually DID want to join?

dahblue

December 16th, 2009 at 3:45 PM ^

I don't know all the in's/out's of AAU, television contracts, etc...but my reality-be-damned scenario brings Nebraska to the Big Ten. Who cares about Louisville, Syracuse, Rutgers (ugh, Rutgers), Mizzou (not even close to caring...it'd be like Iowa minus the caring), etc? ND and BC? Sorry, this isn't a religious league. And what gives with priests on the sidelines looking at guys in tight pants? That's just wrong. It should be public schools only, but we love NW...so exceptions can be made. In short...c'mon...Nebraska v Michigan every year or two? That'd be an amazing game! Second choice...Pitt. Sure, they'll flop to the bottom of the pile playing football out of the mini-mite league, but the bball is strong and they aren't Rutgers!

UMGooch

December 16th, 2009 at 10:30 AM ^

IMHO, the North/South configuration will work out the best in ANY 12th team situation by spreading out the perennial good teams, especially if we wind up with a Missouri or a Nebraska. You could throw an East/West conference rotation too to keep things interesting. The E/W choice would depend on the 12th team. * = perennial North: *Michigan *Wisconsin *Iowa MSU Minnesota Northwestern South: *tOSU *PSU *Mizz/*Nebraska/*ND/Pitt/Cincy Illinois Purdue Indiana ------------ (should we get Neb/Mizz, decent balance) East: *Michigan *tOSU *PSU MSU Purdue Indiana West: *Wisconsin *Iowa *Nebraska/*Mizz Minnesota Northwestern Illinois ----------- (without Neb/Mizz, quite unbalanced) East: *Michigan *tOSU *PSU Pitt/Cincy 2 of the MSU/Indiana/Purdue West: *Wisconsin *Iowa Minnesota Illinois Northwestern 1 of the MSU/Indiana/Purdue

Tberry

December 16th, 2009 at 10:51 AM ^

I have no idea where they rank in some of the requisite criteria mentioned in the article but I think LOUISVILLE would be a good choice they are good geographically. They expand us into SEC territory. They would be competitive in Basketball and Football.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

December 16th, 2009 at 11:23 AM ^

Here, I'll rank 'em for you: Academics: -1 FB: 1 BB: 2 Other: -1 Loc: 3 Market: 1 Footprint: 3 So yeah.....basically other than the fact that they're close by and have a fair basketball program, they're not in the conversation. Plus: AAU. AAU AAU AAU AAU AAU AAU AAU AAU AAU AAU. I'll reply to every post in every Big Ten expansion thread with nothing but the words AAU if I have to, until I get it through people's skulls that the Big Ten will never consider a non-AAU school not named Notre Dame.

CrouchingTiger

December 16th, 2009 at 3:28 PM ^

Mizzou grad here. I stumbled across your blog when strolling through the Interweb looking for any and all information regarding Mizzou's possible move to the Big 10. I would say the current climate of Mizzou fans is about 60/40 against moving to the Big 10. However, I'd say the majority of that 60% is casting judgment based on nostalgia and fear of change. I myself am currently in limbo; I see both potential benefits ($ and a more equitable bowl selection) and pitfalls (loss of fertile Texas football recruiting ground and nostalgic rivalries). I am on the fence, and I think a lot of Mizzou fans are too. A few things about your "points" given to Mizzou and Pitt. I'm sure I'll be accused of homerism, but you've undervalued Mizzou in two areas. First, academia. Missouri, as an academic institution, is not on par with Michigan or Northwestern. But it houses (arguably at very least) the best journalism in the country, and after the COC bump, it's on par with most of the Big 10. I think it deserves a "2" here. Second, your rating of "1" for Mizzou basketball is laughable. Mizzou won the Big 12 Tournament last year. They went to the Elite Eight in the NCAA tourney. They have the dubiuos honor of winning the most NCAA tournament games in history having never been to a Final Four. Most importantly, they have a Top 15 recruiting class in the nation next year. Your placement of Mizzou's BB program on par with Rutgers' "nonentity" of a program is absurd. Just a couple points. We're all interested to see how it plays out. M-I-Z, Z-O-U

CrouchingTiger

December 16th, 2009 at 3:40 PM ^

Forgot to mention the point about Pitt... How does Pitt get a "2" in footprint and market??? The Big 10 Network already HAS the Pittsburgh market -- you said that yourself! Penn State is just a few miles down the road. If ever there were cause for a "1" rating, this is it. It also might be worth noting that this is at least SEEMS like the kind of blind, northeastern bias that makes some Mizzou fans want to join the Big Ten and dish out a few reality checks on the court/field.

blueandgold

December 19th, 2009 at 1:16 AM ^

Pitt gets a 2 in footprint and market because that's what they are. Let's do a little thought exercise here. I'll name a city/region and then we'll run down the biggest teams (relevant to this discussion) in order of their fan base. Ready.... Philadelphia: PSU - PITT - uh, Temple? Pittsburgh: PITT - PSU - WVU West Virginia: WVU - PITT - PSU Buffalo: PSU - PITT - Syracuse Youngstown/Eastern Ohio - tOSU - PSU - PITT PITT is in the discussion everywhere in that market, and to say that it's covered because of PSU is laughable. If the BTN wants to lock up that area, and trust me we would love to ditch ESPN, than they need PITT or WVU, in that order. So as far as Media draw and footprint, Mizzou may be equal to the draw of PITT but not more. Another point is the games themselves being a draw. Someone has to watch the BTN after all to make it work in a market. With PITT you get games that appeal and draw viewers due to pre-existing rivalries (and I mean real rivalries with over a hundred years of history) like PITT-PSU, and every other year, when it's held in Pgh, the PITT-WVU game. That doesn't even mention the possibility of the draw PITT-tOSU might generate and the semi-annual PITT-ND game that would be on BTN every four years at least. All those games are instant sellouts, huge ratings draws in the BTN footprint, "buzz worthy" games talked about before and after for a week or more (on other stations besides the BTN), and, well, it just sounds like it fits. Face it, the Big Ten wants, doesn't need to, move a little more East, and Rutgers isn't really getting you anything (other posts and comments can handle that topic). Syracuse doesn't want it, WVU and Pitt are really all they can get to add that East Coast feeling (and I'm not saying PITT is East Coast, or draws all those folks in Boston, NYC, or DC) and maybe for no other reason other than that PITT-PSU would be talked about by families of Alum living all over PA, NJ, DC, NY and WV. There is NO WAY Missouri gets that buzz, no way.

98xj

December 16th, 2009 at 6:38 PM ^

but I think a case can be made for Maryland. They are several years removed from their MBB glory years, and leaving the ACC might not be so tough: $$$$$$. TV markets are important, and I recall Delany saying that the BT wants to expand the geographic footprint too. Maryland gives you both TV and footprint, Pitt and Mizzou don't.

CrouchingTiger

December 17th, 2009 at 10:39 AM ^

Actually... Mizzou gives you two top 35 TV markets in St. Louis and Kansas City. There are some Illinois fans in St. Louis, but it is a MIzzou town -- anyone who has ever been there on a Saturday in the fall could tell you that. It would also expand the Big Ten's geographic footprint to include Missouri. There are no real divisions of allegiance in Missouri when it comes to college football -- nearly the entire state (save a few fans here and there) supports Mizzou. C'mon man...think about this stuff before you say it.

Tony In Pittsburgh

December 18th, 2009 at 10:50 PM ^

I am one of many lifelong Pitt fans and season ticket holders who are fed up with the Big East's fascination with being a basketball conference filled with snobby, small, football-less schools like Villanova, Marquette, DePaul, and Georgetown. We are ready to move on to a better fit, just like Miami, Virginia Tech, and Boston College did a few years back. Two magic words would seal the deal: "Penn State". Nothing else needs to be said. I appreaciate the storied atmosphere of Michigan-Ohio State games. But have any of you been to a Pitt-Penn State game? Pitt has also had some great football and basketball games recently with Iowa, Michigan State, and Wisconsin. We're flattered that Pitt has been mentioned as a potential 12th team with the Big Ten. If invited, there would be a groundswell of support from fans.

blueandgold

December 19th, 2009 at 1:59 AM ^

@Tony, I couldn't agree more!! I'm not a PITT alum, but I've lived in Pittsburgh my whole life, outside my college years spent north. I can't tell you how much PITT-PSU meant back in the 80's and 90's when I was growing up. People forget that the Big East is only 30 years old, and PITT, like PSU and ND, was one of the best programs in the country as an independent. Big East football only started in the late 80's, and it has never been a good fit. No more so than the loss of the PITT-PSU rivalry. It just makes my heart bleed sometimes. I talk to PSU fans, and they seem to say that they aren't as interested in the game, but don't let them fool you! They just know that there isn't any good way (for their team) to renew the rivalry given current situations. If PITT joined the BIG TEN, and that rivalry were renewed, you'd see the sparks fly. I remember how it was just 10-15 years ago, and that is not nearly enough time to remove the bad blood, just simmer the pot so-to-speak. And for those who look at Athletic Department Spending and game attendance as a measure of a candidate for expansion, some mea-culpas for PITT. The AD spending is right in line with the revenue. If PITT were in the BIG TEN, revenue would almost double, and I'm not being flippant, it would double, and so would AD spending. As for attendance, PITT Basketball is one of the toughest tickets to come by, sold out for 7 straight years in a brand new facility (and I know the BIG TEN would like to have PITT and their NYC recruits in the fold). They also have started putting together some REALLY good teams containing players with lasting appeal, like Djuan Blair. Football draws sell-outs for all the big games, ND, WVU, Cincinnati this year. It's heard to get up for South Florida and Rutgers and Youngstown State, and NC State, and Syracuse, and UCONN and Louisville.... the point being that with only a couple good home games, often one good home game, fans don't buy season tickets and then the stadium can only sell out for a couple games. Put PITT in the BIG TEN and you have two guaranteed big games at home a year with either PSU, tOSU, Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin, or MSU, not to mention WVU or ND which would likely remain on the schedule (WVU every other year, ND every four years) and you'll get season ticket sell outs, which equals every game sold out. The only way PITT doesn't bring marquee to the BIG TEN is if we stumble and fall hard, but we're historically very good (9 National Championships), with big names like Marino, Dorsett, Curtis Martin, Fitzgareld, Ditka, "Iron Head" Heyward, May, and Greene. the 90's were an aberration and not the norm when compared to a large sample size of a hundred years. Point is, I suppose, that I like the BIG TEN, I have family connections to the conference (my mom's family are all tOSU fans - but no worries, I'm not infected), and I think PITT was dumb for ever getting into the BIG EAST mess to begin with. Like Tony, I want a change, and would be grateful to the BIG TEN for giving us the opportunity, if they so choose, and for fans of all the other programs for extending the invitation.

psychomatt

December 20th, 2009 at 4:58 AM ^

If the B10 could pick whoever they wanted, the best option would be Texas. Killer economics. Great athletics and academics. School fits perfectly. And the B10 still could keep its rivalry games with ND. Second best option? Well, ND. The rest of the schools fall into two groups. The first group are schools that would not be embarrassing and would legitimately enable the B10 to move forward with two divisions and a championship game. These schools include Pitt, Missouri, Nebraska and Syracuse. The second group are all of the other schools that have been mentioned, none of which will happen because they are net negatives almost across the board. How will this play out? (a) the B10 will at least make an overture or two to Texas (unfortunately, Texas dominates the B12 and the B12's revenue sharing system is extremely favorable to Texas, so this very unlikely); (b) the B10 will simultaneously beg and plead and try to bribe (kidnap?) ND (which probably will not work, not because ND is better off remaining independent, but because at the end of the day ND just will not be able to pull the trigger and join a conference); and (c) the B10 will slowly reach out to each of the teams in the first group above (i.e., Pitt, Missouri, Nebraska and Syracuse) and play them all off against each other; the B10 will finally pick Syracuse (they will have this decided well in advance, actually) because it expands the B10 footprint enough without getting too crazy geographically and because it will help the B10 make additional inroads into the Northeast media markets. Is this the best outcome? No. Can we live with it and is it a net plus for the B10? Absolutely. The more difficult question is, what will become of the Big East sans Syracuse? Who will they add? ND (under a sweetheart deal with extremely favorable economics)? Memphis? Or will they try to convince BC (and/or any of the other ACC schools) to switch [back] to the Big East? At least we will have something else to discuss over the next two years other than how much the BCS sucks and why we need a playoff.

mazzle

January 6th, 2010 at 10:00 PM ^

I agree that UT would be the best choice. They owe it to their strong athletic program, according to a research paper about UT that was written by a public relations company. Of course that is probably biased but it is also quite obvious with their stats over the years. The question here is basically the market value of the team and need not necessarily be a good playing one or with strong game. So other teams who can attract more people would probably be chosen, as proven time and time again by custom essays on market research.

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gm0nk3y

January 24th, 2010 at 3:33 AM ^

I agree that UT would be the best choice. They owe it to their strong athletic program, according to a research paper about UT that was written by a public relations company. Of course that is probably humidifier biased but it is also quite obvious with their stats over the years. The question here is basically the market value of the team and need not necessarily be a good playing one or with strong game. So other washing machines teams who can make money attract more people would probably be chosen, as proven time and time again by custom essays on market research.

jezmez68

January 8th, 2010 at 10:55 AM ^

Thanks, I guess, for considering Iowa State for the Big 11. Negatives for Iowa State: - Basketball and Football programs aren't too happening. - Don't have big followings, as all the Wal-Mart Hawkeye fans tend to follow Iowa due to Hayden Frye's legacy. As an alumni who attended school there in the late 80s/early 90s, I understand that our football and basketball programs are not "great" by any means. But I don't think I would care for Iowa State to be a part of the Big 10 conference, since I don't find it to be all that much better than the Big 12. Pros for Iowa State: - Hilton Colleseum (basketball) at Iowa State has a reputation for having a tough home crowd, usually voted in the top 5 toughest places to play - New FB coach who is FROM Iowa and seems to have a lot more ambition than that weak-ass DC from Texas and Auburn who is now the HC at Auburn (I guess he wasn't as good of a recruiter that he claimed to be - what's wrong Chizek, can't get people to come to the flat, windy midwest?) - FB tean beat Nebraska at home with a backup QB and RB for the first time since 1977 - New coach won a bowl game in first year by beating a Big 10 team (Minnesota). - The football team should get better, even though the next 2 seasons look pretty tough, there is a relatively new (5 years or so old) indoor football training facility. - Our wrestling program is currently ranked #2 in the country behind Iowa, and the women's basketball and volleyball programs tend to be top programs as well. Iowa State, academically, has a better or good as, engineering school as Iowa. Last year, I did some research around what football teams won the Big 10, and I noticed that Michigan and Ohio State tended to show up in the top 3 most of the time. Recently, Iowa pops in there every now and then, as well as Penn State, but mostly, this conference belongs to Michigan and Ohio State. I realize that Northwestern's football team won in 1993 or 94, and their basketball team beat the Cyclones earlier this year, but really, what do their football and basketball programs have to offer? Same could be said about Minnesota. Ohio State really made the Big 10 look like crap by getting blown out 2 years in a row in the National Championship game. They didn't help by having their basketball team get beat by an SEC team as well. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that any Michigan or Ohio State supporter wants to add another team, as this would lessen your precious "historic rivalry" by either relegating it to an earlier season game, or if you're set up in opposite divisions within the conference (much like the Big 12 or SEC is), you may only play each other every two years and have to win your division to meet in the conference championship. Whatever. Nice condescension on your part. I guess not everyone can have a great historical program and the TV money the Big 10 does, but you guys aren't as good as the SEC. I've always thought Notre Dame was the best fit for your conference, but I guess they don't need the money.

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