I love the team reaction. I'd say that they don't mind sharing the title! The banner picture is tremendous. Good work as always Brian.
fair point that
I love the team reaction. I'd say that they don't mind sharing the title! The banner picture is tremendous. Good work as always Brian.
The banner debate is silly, as if the aesthetics of seeing a banner in the stadium, or having it taken down due to some after-the-fact sleuthing, take away our memories about what actually happened.
Rational, composed humans can take the good with the bad. For those of us who played basketball on basketball teams in the early 90s and were fans of Michigan and looked up to those guys as basketball idols (I am one of those "us"), those games against Duke, against UCLA, against Temple, against UNC happened. To ignore them is to forget what was an incredibly exciting time in basketball.
Teams like Michigan, Minnesota, Memphis, UNLV can take down all the banners they want and they can pretend things never happened, or they can raise those banners in order to celebrate achievement while still remember failings. In 2013, those banners should go back up - maybe it's a good thing (like in South Africa and Germany) to have the truth out in the open, to discuss it, and set the right path going forward. That's what leaders do, right?
I don't think taking down the banners is a way of ignoring history, but I think it's a recognition that we're not going to *celebrate* an era that left - at best - a very checkered legacy. South Africa and Germany have openly confronted their history, yes, but they don't still hang Nazi banners or Apartheid propaganda in government offices.
I'd rather leave it in the past. I'd rather never think about Maurice Taylor again.
Direct quote from the column. Sounds like ignoring the past to me.
But what is there to think about, other than 1) how much money he took and 2) how much his teams underachieved? We accomplished nothing of consequence when Taylor was here (1994-97). The Taylor "era" was forgettable even before the Ed Martin scandal happened.
Now for C-Webb, it's a little more complicated.
I guess then that the importance of banners is what is being interpreted here. UCLA still hangs their banners even though there's tons of evidence that they ran a pretty crooked program back in the day.
I've never walked into Williams or Mariucci or Ridder Arenas and cheered at a banner, but I will tell you my kids ask me what they mean and how the teams got those banners. They are the acknowledgment of history. That stuff happened.
And without treading into politics, you don't have to go far in Germany or South Africa to find government-sponsored projects talking about those times in national history. It's there and it's confronted.
I don't think a banner confronts the complex and partially ugly truth of the Fab Five era and its legacy. To compare hanging a banner to the extensive and thoughtful efforts made by the Germans to deal with the Nazi era is ridiculous.
But Michigan should make some comparable effort to remember what happened without whitewashing the damage done to the basketball program and the university - but just putting the banners back up doesn't cut it.
That comparing what the Nazi's did to what happened in Michigan basketball was kinda ridiculous. No matter how much Germans are finally coming to terms with it. But YMMV.
When comparing imperissible benefits to basketball players to the slaughter of millions of innocent people the "hanging of a banner vs. thoughtful efforts made by the Germans to deal with the Nazi era" is the part that strikes you as ridiculous?
Yes, because one comparison was actually made and the other was not. If anyone had actually compared the scandal to the holocaust, I agree that would be absurd. What we are talking about is strategies for responding to disagreeable history, not the history itself.
Right, but I would think when comparing responses to "disagreeable history", the magnitute of how disagreeable that history is would also dictate the analysis of the appropriateness of the responses. (That's an awful sentence, but still.) I just think it's a fools errand to compare things that are so disparate.
I think the analogy about terrible history is apt. Who knows, maybe the banners could hang in the new Crisler Awesomeness that they're building in a display case with a plaque about the accomplishments and failings. That way it's on display, but not up in the rafters, acknowledged, but critically so.
Sort of a museum exhibit of the '90s era of Michigan basketball. Witness it, ponder it, reflect on it, then make your own judgement.
A great point, but I never expected a reference to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, no matter how oblique, to make its way in to a discussion of the Fab Five era. Well struck good sir.
In 2013, those banners should go back up - maybe it's a good thing (like in South Africa and Germany) to have the truth out in the open, to discuss it, and set the right path going forward. That's what leaders do, right?
Do you feel the same way about OSU and its vacated 2010 championship, or does this logic only apply to Michigan?
We vacated the games. The banners can't go up. I loved those teams, but what's done is done. The NCAA will never reinstate those lost seasons.
I totally agree. If the seasons are not on the official record book, then to me they never happened. It sucks, but putting up banners for lost seasons seems silly to me. Kind of like if USC had kept displaying an MNC trophy for the one that was taken as a result of the Reggie Bush fiasco.
Love where the program is headed. Thought we'd be a bubble team going into the year, but the team surpassed all expectations (I don't care if they were top 15 preseason. I still think that was crazy after losing DMo and replacing him with a freshman PG). Go Blue. Big Ten Champions. Got a nice ring to it.
"Big Ten Champions. Got a nice ring to it."
I'm sure all of the players fingers agree.
Not sure that's not worse, but whatever.
Hopefully the Breaking Bad comparisons end at the pilot.
As for the rest...man, you can be emo about anything, no matter how much fun it was, huh?
...dropping your final two while UM goes 7 of their last 8, they should be less mad about losing to share and more happy that Michigan blew the Purdue game.
Congrats to the 2011-2012 Wolverines, you deserve that banner fellas.
I found it interesting to note that UM played 6 games against the bottom 5 teams in the B1G where MSU & OSU played 7 games each against those same 5 teams.
I was thinking the same thing. Saw somewhere an MSU fan said no team should win the B1G title if they lost to Purdue and Iowa, which seemed silly to me since they lost to NW and Illinois. Wins and losses happen, and unlike in football you'll typically have enough sample size that teams don't experience some great scheduling advantage for a given season.
We actually play winner of Northwestern-Minnesota, not Northwestern-Iowa.
Used so often in the Lexus household...
Always love Nazi's melting/exploding or drying up dustily in the Indiana Jones movies...
at 3:46 of that video, i am pretty sure Borges is there celebrating. not to take away from b-ball, but i like the idea that the two coaching staffs intermingle and celebrate together - very familial.
If it is Gorgeous Al, he must have lost weight.
It's hard to believe that one of my favorite memories of this year is a game-winner by William Buford, but there it is. I jumped out of my chair and yelled when that thing went in. What a day!
But only until I saw the video of the team doing the same, which helped put it all in perspective.
I'm glad it was Buford that hit the shot at least. I'm from the Toledo area and my sophomore year of high school, my JV and Varsity basketball teams had a scrimmage against his JV and Varsity teams his freshman year. I can't be sure, but my good friend and I think he dunked over my friend while he tried to take a charge. Hit him in the nads and he was pissing blood for a couple days. Or so the legend goes.
Great read, man. Excellent work.
Brian, I get that you have an opinion about the banners and I get the Rose has an opinion about the banners. But, you know, since he was the guy that earned those banners that later came down, I think I'm going to have to side with him.
Everyone has a right to their own opinions. Rose's take on them means more to me then the average MICH fan.
Dues paid to ncaa, not blogger and fans. Not sure anything more is owed to he fans than to continue to run as clean of program as is possible in current environment. The big ten championship, seemingly done the right way, was the only additional payment owed us, no? If the NCAA no longer forbids the association why should we and why should we continue to punish the supermajority of players and personnel associated with the era? Seems like some holier than thou, masturbory symbolism to me. In my mind, the "other side of the worst of fan in all of us (read: the other end being the cheating liar side).
Could have saved myself some time if I had seen your post earlier. Play by the rules, punish for breaking the rules, forgive when the punishment is served.
The punishment can't be "served." According to the NCAA, the four players lost their collegiate eligibility once they started taking money from a man who was a booster (which he was from April 1992 onward). You can't become retroactively eligible. You're either eligible or you aren't.
Yes forgive the people and welcome them back, but don't put up banners that were gained by not playing by the rules.
Just because Rose was involved in obtaining those banners doesn't mean that he has the end-all, be-all right to keep them up. The NCAA determined that Rose's teams were involved in illegal activities and wiped their existence from the official record of UM and NCAA sport history. As a result, though banners do not exist from a historical perspective. Yes, that is only half the story and there are good reasons why people should not foget about them, but to hang them up in Crisler would be an attempt to recognize a history that doesn't officially exist, and one that would be difficult to explain to future generations and in keeping true to the mantras of UM (i.e. we are recognizing "cheating" by an institution that has gone out of its way to never be accused of such improprieties since).
I get that Rose wants them back up, but you can't always get what you want in life. I'm sure he can have them hung up in his house or some non-UM affiliated facility, but it does not seem logical to hang them in Crisler or anywhere else on campus.
Per usual, nice work Brian. I love how the seniors know that they are not just playing for themselves now, but also for the future of Michigan basketball. They have totally bought into the program and deserve to see that banner. Be nice if the NCAA bracket stays as is, a sweet 16 rematch with Duke would be explosive.
That photoshop is going to be one that I save for long into the future to go along with hip hop dantonio.
By the looks on their faces that is what they are picturing in their heads.
I think it says everything about the Fab Five, the Ed Martin scandal, etc., that even when we do something truly great, hang a non-NIT banner for the first time since 1998*, we still have to talk about Ed Martin, the Fab Five, Chris Webber, etc.
Can this banner be the exorcism? Can it be the forever-banned moment for the valley of the shadow of death in which our program existed for those long and terrible years?
The Fab Five cares about -their- legacy, not Michigan. John Beilein and these kids who just played their tail off, and all the players who came before them during the doldrums of Michigan Basketball, did so in spite of what Ed Martin, and everyone who enabled him (from the coaching staff down to the players and their families), foisted on this program and this University. It says a lot about a guy like Jalen that even when he's covering a team in 2012, he can't stop talking about 1992, the banners, Webber, etc.
Enough is enough. 2013 is not the year for Fab Five Rehabilitation and Chris Webber Night at Crisler. It's the year for a conference title defense. Those guys choose to try to steal the limelight from a bunch of kids who were in diapers when they played (like toss up another billboard defending their "legacy"), or they can admit they are infinitely less important than what Coach and these kids are trying to do NOW to form a foundation worth building upon, which is something the Fab Five (and Traylor/Bullock/Taylor/etc.) can never claim.
Between the shot made at the end of the OSU game till this post, I haven't seen ANYBODY bring that stuff up. Till Brian did here. It really has nothing to do with it. As echoWhiskey says below, it might have made for two interesting separate posts, but put together it's forced, and unnecessary. The only one detracting from what the 2011-2012 Michigan Basketball team accomplished by making comparisons is Brian, and yourself, apparently. On a day it should be all about them, someone's still talking about 20 years ago. Off some comment Jalen made 4 days ago, before we had won anything.
It's a fine and defendable take on that era. But to tie it into what happened yesterday is kinda unseemly. This year's team rescued us from cheap facilities, bad coaching hires, and questionable recruiting far more than it did any sanction we got after. Because lots of teams have been hammered and come back faster than that. We were our own worst enemy.
Well at least we are spared Dave Brandon being linked in as well
We can't point a finger at OSU and Pryor without being utter hypocrites unless we accept that we were once guilty of the same, and that what seperates Michigan from Ohio is that we regret that we came up short of our high standards, not that we got caught.
This is Michigan Fergodsakes!
Ughh... these should have been seperate posts. Let's take time to celebrate the present without rehashing the past. It's important to remember where this program came from, but this post has needless broad assumptions that sure put a damper on the tenor of it.
I'm elated for the current team and it's important to recognize that they've accomplished something that hasn't been done in more than 20 years - even without taking into account Fab Five mind-erasing.
But tying that into the Fab Five and that era seems forced here. Perhaps that's just because I disagree with so much of Brian's take on that era.
Now is a time for jumping on furniture and taking your shirt off. I have no interest in reflecting on anything at this moment that doesn't directly involve this team and its Big Ten Championship.
i think this got taken down when i posted it before, just a parody at how MSU is reacting to the shared chamionship...
This needs to become something.
I'd have to say my favorite part of this post is the Sparty schadenfreude that comes with the pic of them raising their banner. You can tell they had to cut the "s" off the end of "champions" to make it a legitimate banner at the last second, due to the fact that the "Big Ten" and "2012" are completely uncentered on the thing. Or, they let one of their Art majors design it. Either way, it's classic.
Yes, they are a "champion", among the three. But it's not a one man sport, so their players are "champions". Seems like some self-flagellation there.
between Fab 5ers and Taylor/Traylor/Bullock et al., and not just talent, but as representatives of the school. Not sure it is fair to say that the Fab 5 was responsible for that crew. Despite their warts, the Fab 5 were/are Titans and I, as an alum, am overall proud of them and will defend them. The Taylor/Traylor/Bullock era, er, um, pass.