I really hope 10-2 or bust folks keep this in mind. We are still very much climbing out of a smoldering crater. (edit to add) The class that should be the heart of this team right now just plain isn't here anymore.

I think that this post gives great context that needs to be kept in mind when eveluating Hoke's tenure so far.  Hoke's success to date has roughly tracked the number of upperclassmen contributing to the roster.  Thus, in 2011, Hoke had great success with a team made up of seniors and juniors from Carr's last class and RR's first.  In 2012, as those seniors graduated, we were forced to play far more younger players, and started to experience depth issues at several positions.  By 2013, the effect of this was at its greatest, as our roster was amongst the youngest in the league. 

I know that many on this blog like to refer to the youth explanation for the past 2 season's struggles as an "excuse," but it is a valid excuse.  There is a real physical difference between an 18-19 year old kid and a 22-23 year old man.  Similarly, experience and continuity does make a difference.  For those who doubt the effect of upperclassmen, experience and continuity, take a look at the player retention rate at MSU - towards the top of the conference.  In his first three years, Dantonio had 7 wins, 9 wins and 6(!!) wins.  Certainly worse than Hoke.  It wasn't until his 4th year when the rubber really hit the road for him.  Had MSU fans over-reacted and canned him after 3 years, they would certainly have missed out on success that they are currently enjoying.  Wisconsin is another example of a program that has historically had greater success than their recruiting ranking because of stability.

While 2014 is Hoke's 4th year, given the crater that he inherited, especially at OL (one F'ing recruit over a 2-year span is unheard of), a real argument can be made that he is entitled to get to 2015 if this next season is anything better than a total disaster.  What our program need most not is not a hot, splashy coach.  It needs spability so that the craters in the roster caused by 2009-10 are completely filled. 

the Bryant departure leaves the OL count from the 2010 and 2011 classes at a whopping one, Jack Miller. he Bthttt"the Bryant departure leaves the OL count from 2010 and 2011 class at a whopping one, Jack Miller"

I don't like the "youth" excuses, but damn, the 2010 and 2011 classes have left us with 17 scholarship fourth and fifth year players.  That's not enough.

But the 2012 class should be ready to contribute in a big way.  If they're not, we're in trouble.

It's been so hard to keep this in prespective, especially when you're so emotionally invested. You have to have a core of talented upperclassmen in key positions and sufficient depth behind them to win at this level. Sure, you can have Freshman and Sophmores make an impact, but they shouldn't be relied on to carry a team. Ever since 2006 ended I've been trying to predict when they will actually be in that position again and I continue to be wrong. I had high hopes for a lot of those players in the 2010 class and it's amazing to see that basically none of them worked out. With the way that Hoke has recruited, retained his recruits, and played a majority of those recruits at key positions at an early age I'm hopeful that they're heading in the right direction. What Michigan has gone through in the last eight years has been so damn depressing and I hope for our sakes it's finally turning around.

What really pisses me off is that Ohio managed to bullshit their way out of any seriously damaging NCAA penalties and made a home run hire that prevented any serious drop off at all. In fact it seems as though they're actually better off than they were before. It also makes them look as though they actually know what they're doing, while Michigan not so much.

I see a lot of people talking about youth and attrition and because of these things Michigan should give Hoke more time and temper their expectations for this year. The answer to this is, of course: No shit. 

I think what frustrates a lot of people is that the same time and patience was not afforded Hoke's predecessor. Somehow, a first year offense filled with freshmen, sophomores and first year starters was Rodriguez's fault. Somehow, a third year defensive backfield filled with freshmen and sophomores was not Lloyd Carr's fault but Rodriguez's fault. Somehow, a team returning 20 starters in 2011 going 11-2 was because of Brady Hoke and not, you know, what would have happened had Rodriguez been allowed to stay and hire Casteel.  

Maybe, just maybe, if a little bit of patience had been granted in 2011 and maybe, just maybe, had Rich Rodriguez been allowed to bring in his Nussmeier (Casteel), which he had wanted to do for two straight years, we'd actually have a pretty stable, successful football team right now. 

I know people will point at recruiting and say "But Rodriguez created this mess!!!". We have no idea what would have happened with recruiting had Rodriguez stayed (How big of a difference would having just Jake Fisher have made last year?). I blame Dave Brandon for being incompetent and thinking that a secondary made up of freshmen and sophomores was going to be lights out or even average and firing the head coach because of it. 

You know, that's crazy, almost as crazy as thinking an offensive line with two NFL tackles and three underclassmen on the interior would be average. Good thing even Dave Brandon is capable of learning a lesson or two.  

Anyway: Hoke deserves patience. He's got two top coordinators and he's brought in three highly rated recruiting classes. Next year, that should pay dividends on defense and maybe that will be enough to beat expecations. The year after, realistically should be the year everything comes together on both sides of the ball and should be the beginning of stability for a long time to come. I just hope the team can get to at least 9-3 this year with a big road win otherwise it could be a long off-season. 

I think that Brandon should get a slice of the blame for the ridiculous "process."  RR should have been fired after the OSU debacle and a new coach should have been in place by the bowl game.  I know some beleive that Brandon had a hand shake agreement with Harbaugh that Jimmy would come after Stanford's bowl game, but even if that is true, Brandon got played and should have never relied on a handshake.

The bottom line is that Brandon wasted 2 months when he could have hired Hoke the day after the loss to Ohio.  This killed any recruiting momentum the Hoke hire could have had to finish out 2011. 

It is getting painful to read through threads that are so negative on Hoke and the staff and the team. "Big 10 Championship or fire Hoke" is just ridiculous. So is "10 - 2, maybe 9 - 3, or fire Hoke." Brandon comes in for lots of criticism here. But there is one thing I believe he will do that makes a huge difference. I believe that Brandon is completely behind Hoke, and will not be quick to pull the trigger and start with new coaches all over again.

I remember the concern about O line recruiting when RR was here. I remember Brian writing years ago that the O line depth wouldn't be fixed til 2015. I loved Denard, but that set the offense back a couple years. And I love the team, but the O line and D Line take years to set up well.

A significant part of the success at Ohio and MSU and many other solid programs is built on depth, where freshmen are typically red shirted. With that redshirt year of acclimation, they aren't expected to see significant time on the field until their FOURTH YEAR in the program!

I love Hoke, think Funk is doing all he can, think Nussmeier will do well, and think Mattison is awesome. Manning is great on the staff, and is tearing it up with recruiting.

I don't know what kind of record we will have next year. However, the coaches and team can't be unaware. I would be shocked if the defense doesn't come out next year and play out of their minds. And I'd love to see Nussmeier and Gardner, with a decent albeit young line, come out and shock a lot of people. I don't think we're going to have the kind of squeakers this year that we had in 2013.

On top of everything else, look at the schedule this year.  Next year, we get the tough games at home.  This team should be improved, but still will lose more games than we like this year because of how the schedule shakes out.  So long as one of the QBs is poised to play competently in 2015, we should win a lot of games that year and therafter.  Unfortunately, patience is required this year.  Winning easily over the cupcakes and playing competitive ball the rest of the time (and splitting the competitive games) would make me reasonably happy, maybe 8-4?  Include a win over MSU or ohio, and I would be quite happy.

I haven't read through all the comments, but a few notes:

Terrance Talbott didn't leave because of injury. He got booted off the team, or at least chose not to accept his punishment, essentially removing himself from the team.

Also, Greg Brown is still playing football at a small school in Iowa.